1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Restraint]

I won't defend that one particular Anders dialogue because I seem to remember it being unneccessarily restrictive, but in the absence of our judeo-christian history of sexual repression the argument could easily be made that bisexual characters are more realistic than the alternative, not less.

[Foxbat Killer]

hussey 92 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why do you think he forced his sexuality on you? I recall him hitting on my PC once. She turned him down and he never hit on her again.

If you turn him down theres an approval drop, so if your a straight guy (a common demagraphic for video game players, I assume) and you don't want to romance another dude, there doesn't seem to be a neutral option.

Exactly.  I felt like I could be good friends with Cortez in ME3 after turning him down.  With Anders it felt awkward and forced.

[Maria Caliban]

hussey 92 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why do you think he forced his sexuality on you? I recall him hitting on my PC once. She turned him down and he never hit on her again.

If you turn him down theres an approval drop, so if your a straight guy (a common demagraphic for video game players, I assume) and you don't want to romance another dude, there doesn't seem to be a neutral option.

I am awares.

The problem here is that you see someone hitting on you and not liking it when you turn them down as forcing their sexuality on you. To me, that's like saying that a restaurant that charges you for drinks is highway robbery, or that the Red Cross Santa who stands beside the donation box ringing a bell is accosting you for money.

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Exactly.  I felt like I could be good friends with Cortez in ME3 after turning him down.  With Anders it felt awkward and forced.

That would be my experience with the majority of times I've seen one person turn down another.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 avril 2012 - 01:46 .

[twincast]

umwhatyousay wrote...

Really? I can.  What about, like, China? Homophobia's a thing in a lot of places, and it was well-before Christianity and Islam were established (I don't think Judaism ever had the influence those two religions had, but I could be wrong). Greek and Roman beliefs on homosexuality were influenced by all manner of totally gross misogyny and homophobia. I think the writers have said that the Chant of Light doesn't really talk about homosexuality (maybe I'm wrong), but there's some evidence that the Thedosian cultures we've seen are a bit homophobic. Not majorly so, like maybe frat-douche plus disappointed, biological-grandchild-wanting parent levels. Perfect analogy.

China? LOL. Not to dwell on this, but I think you seriously underestimate the effects of imperialism and communism in East Asia in regards to sexuality. And to cut a potential multi-paragraph post relatively short: Misogyny throughout the ages led in many (but not all) places to ridicule (and potentially some loss of status (although the opposite has been recorded as well)) of known "bottoms", but not to dehumanization or worse. In most cases there was social pressure to marry and produce offspring (just as there was very often social pressure to engage in heavily coded homosexual activities as a right of passage), but aside from that (free) men were free to f-word whom they pleased as they usually weren't even bound to vows of faithfulness on their parts. Women obviously rarely had remotely the same liberties, but that's a wholly different issue. (And by the way, even with misogyny running rampant throughout the world, the Pentateuch stands out as a sickening highlight.)

And regarding the Chant: That's probably a given, but reeks more of well-meaning oversanitation than things being thought through.

[tmp7704]

hussey 92 wrote...

If you turn him down theres an approval drop, so if your a straight guy (a common demagraphic for video game players, I assume) and you don't want to romance another dude, there doesn't seem to be a neutral option.

That approval drop doesn't prevent you from getting maxed out relationship meter with Anders, if i'm not mistaken.

I didn't personally like Hawke could only turn Anders down acting like a douchebag, but getting the relationship meter hit for turning him down is quite logical reaction no matter how nice it would be worded. So while i would like to see a nicer way to tell him "no" i'd expect it to generate approval hit just the same.

[hussey 92]

tmp7704 wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

If you turn him down theres an approval drop, so if your a straight guy (a common demagraphic for video game players, I assume) and you don't want to romance another dude, there doesn't seem to be a neutral option.

That approval drop doesn't prevent you from getting maxed out relationship meter with Anders, if i'm not mistaken.

I didn't personally like Hawke could only turn Anders down acting like a douchebag, but getting the relationship meter hit for turning him down is quite logical reaction no matter how nice it would be worded. So while i would like to see a nicer way to tell him "no" i'd expect it to generate approval hit just the same.

yeah, it seemed like there were two options with Anders: flirt or be a dick.  Although there is a way around it, you just flirt the first time and then theres some other option you can take to avoid romance...its been to long since I did that part

And it did seem kind of wierd that once you max out a friendship, they would never disaprove of anything you say or do

[Deviija]

Even if the PC's rejection response to Anders had not been worded as harshly as people say, I can still see Anders responding in much the same way. A person he was growing feelings for turned him down, so he's upset over the rejection and loss of companionship that will never be. Not everyone, when rejected, reply with sweet smiles and, 'Oh, it's okay, everything's cake and unicorns and nothing's changed.' Some people get upset for a time. Sometimes it's upset over rejection itself.

[Dejajeva]

This whole conversation just boggles my mind. I don't understand why people get so uncomfortable when someone of the same sex hits on them. Is it really so awful to be so super sexy that both sexes wanna hit it? Its just real world homophobia seeping in. This whole "Bioware is forcing homosexuality on me because Anders hit on my very manly dude" just reeks of it. I agree there should be a way to turn him down nicely. But if it bothers you that much, perhaps the agressive option is your better bet anyway.

On some kind of topic other than that I want to talk about Cullen again because I just finished the circle tower in my latest da playthrough and he was def major in love with my mage and that whole thing would just be such an interesting storyline to continue. Having him fall for another mage...sorting out his mage issues. Coming to terms with his past...it'd be very emo and they love the emo boys in this game.

[Foxbat Killer]

Quit playing the homophobia card. The same rule applies to opposite sex romances. For example if Merril tried to force herself on my Hawke I'd have tried to make Hawke commit suicide. I don't want any character pinning me in a corner like Anders did out of the blue.

[hussey 92]

Dejajeva wrote...

This whole conversation just boggles my mind. I don't understand why people get so uncomfortable when someone of the same sex hits on them. Is it really so awful to be so super sexy that both sexes wanna hit it? Its just real world homophobia seeping in. This whole "Bioware is forcing homosexuality on me because Anders hit on my very manly dude" just reeks of it. I agree there should be a way to turn him down nicely. But if it bothers you that much, perhaps the agressive option is your better bet anyway.

On some kind of topic other than that I want to talk about Cullen again because I just finished the circle tower in my latest da playthrough and he was def major in love with my mage and that whole thing would just be such an interesting storyline to continue. Having him fall for another mage...sorting out his mage issues. Coming to terms with his past...it'd be very emo and they love the emo boys in this game.

I don't really care about him hitting on me, I just didn't like having to carfully navigate through dialouge in order to limit disaproval

[Dejajeva]

I didn't play any card. Anders didn't force his tongue down your throat. He flirted with you. Isabella flirts with you every two seconds and hardly anyone ever mentions her. If you aren't down with the penis time, turn him down, and move on. It happens at real life bars all the time.

If the issue is metagaming for approval, I agree. If the issue is his sexuality, its something we are going to have to get used to seeing in more and more games because its awesome and lots of people agree.

[Maria Caliban]

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Quit playing the homophobia card. The same rule applies to opposite sex romances. For example if Merril tried to force herself on my Hawke I'd have tried to make Hawke commit suicide. I don't want any character pinning me in a corner like Anders did out of the blue.

I was actually going for the 'straight male privilege' card.

I'm going to guess that you've never walked down the street and had a group of guys make whistling/woofing noises or yell out comments about your body. You've probably had a complete stranger grab your ass in a dance club or demand to buy you a drink and physically block you when you try to get away. You've probably never said 'no' when a guy asked you out, and then have him show up at your house and sit in his car outside for several hours.

That is, you have no idea what it means for someone to try to force their sexuality on you, so you conflate a rather normal interaction (guy hits on you and gets pouty when you say no) as being forced.

Have you ever asked someone out or told them that you were attracted to them? Have you ever been rejected and felt bad about it?

If you answer yes, by your own criteria, you've forced your sexuality on others. Even if you're lucky enough to have never been rejected or have never felt bad about it, I consider Ander's reaction to be perfectly understandable.

Hell, if I faulted the companions for being petty or less than perfect, I'd only be left with Varric's chesthair.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 avril 2012 - 05:31 .

[Dejajeva]

I think I love you. Maria. In a completely non-threatening and completely non sexual way.

[Dejajeva]

So much so I guess I had to tell you twice. That's what I get for replying on my phone.

Modifié par Dejajeva, 05 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why do you think he forced his sexuality on you? I recall him hitting on my PC once. She turned him down and he never hit on her again.

The issue, from what I recall of this discussion as I had it a few months back where my view on it evolved, is that he gives you rivalry. Which in this case is means he disapproves, which isn't how it should be.

You are aware of this issue, as you pointed out. But it's made even worse by the game giving you two flirty options and one heartbreak option.

That is bad game design. Anders may not be forcing his sexuality onto the player, but the game is doing so because of giving you no way to let Anders down carefully -- where you end up saying you're flattered, but you're not interested. It gives you two options to flirt with him, but only one to let him down. It's basically saying "There are more of these, so this path is right! Be with Anders! It's your destiny!!!" 

It's either "Keep going" in two forms or "Stop, you're thinking inappropriate thoughts".

The option actually tells him that you don't want him thinking about you that way, to which he assumes you want to control his thoughts.

And that's where the Rivalry comes in.

I'm fine with him being attracted to Hawke despite barely knowing him/her -- he acknowledges that they just met, and that it's odd for him to feel such a thing but he does anyway -- but I can't accept the game telling me that if I want to let him down, I'm going to get Rivalry for doing so which ends up equating itself to disapproval.

He can be disappointed. He can disapprove if I pick the option that tells him Hawke doesn't want Anders to think about the former that way, seeing as he now is kinda... crazy and the line fits with his persona I guess -- that's what Anders-romancers have told me anyhow.
 
But I shouldn't gain Rivalry for picking that response, because then it leads to the F/R system being flawed. The F/R system is supposed to focus on their central issues, IIRC.

I shouldn't be told by the game that Anders is the way to go for romance because it throws two flirty options in my face and no way to let him down easily, because if I pick the option that ends the idea of a relationship I get disapproval for it.

To me, it has nothing to do with Anders' sexuality. It has to do with the game trying to tell me how to play.

It should've simply been this:

Heartbreak: "I'd rather you stop" = "I don't want you thinking about me"-->"Everyone wants to control my thoughts" --> Anders disapproves in the scene, but no Rivalry and obviously no Friendship occurs.

Neutral: "I'm flattered, but...." = That's kind of you to say, but I'm not interested" --> Okay, thank you for being honest" --> No movement on the scale

Flirty: "I don't want you to stop" = "Keep going" or something similar to that --> Anders approves of being flirted with back in the scene. No movement on the scale though. 

At the very least, there should've been two flirty options and two heartbreak options. The one we're given in-game where he's both disappointed and he disapproves and one that lets Anders down carefully, where he's only disappointed.

It's not Anders that forces his sexuality on the player. It's the game.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2012 - 06:02 .

[Dejajeva]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why do you think he forced his sexuality on you? I recall him hitting on my PC once. She turned him down and he never hit on her again.

The issue, from what I recall of this discussion as I had it a few months back where my view on it evolved, is that he gives you rivalry. Which in this case is equated to disapproval, which isn't how it should be.

You are aware of this, as you pointed out. But it's made even worse by the game giving you two flirty options and one heartbreak option.

That is bad game design. Anders may not be forcing his sexuality onto the player, but the game is doing so because of giving you no way to let Anders down carefully, saying you're flattered, but you're not interested.

It's either "Keep going in two forms" or "Stop, you're thinking inappropriate thoughts".

The option actually tells him that you don't want him thinking about you that way, to which he assumes you want to control his thoughts.

And that's where the Rivalry comes in.

I'm fine with him being attracted to Hawke despite barely knowing him/her -- he acknowledges that they just met, and that it's odd for him to feel such a thing but he does anyway -- but I can't accept the game telling me that if I want to let him down, I'm going to get Rivalry for doing so which ends up equating itself to disapproval.

He can be disappointed. He can disapprove if I pick the option that tells him Hawke doesn't want Anders to think about the former that way, seeing as he now is kinda... crazy and the line fits with his persona I guess -- that's what Anders-romancers have told me anyhow.
 
But I shouldn't gain Rivalry for picking that response, because then it leads to the F/R system being flawed.

I shouldn't be told by the game that Anders is the way to go for romance because it throws two flirty options in my face and no way to let him down easily, because if I pick the option that ends the idea of a relationship I get disapproval for it.

To me, it has nothing to do with Anders' sexuality. It has to do with the game trying to tell me how to play.

It should've simply been this:

Heartbreak: "I'd rather you stop" = "I don't want you thinking about me"-->"Everyone wants to control my thoughts" --> Anders disapproves in the scene, but no Rivalry and obviously no Friendship occurs.

Neutral: "I'm flattered, but...." = That's kind of you to say, but I'm not interested" --> Okay, thank you for being honest" --> No movement on the scale

Flirty: "I don't want you to stop" = "Keep going" or something similar to that --> Anders approves of being flirted with back in the scene. No movement on the scale though. 

At the very least, there should've been two flirty options and two heartbreak options. The one we're given in-game where he's both disappointed and he disapproves and one that lets Anders down carefully, where he's only disappointed.

It's not Anders that forces his sexuality on the player. It's the game.

Then the problem isn't that Anders forces his sexuality on the player. It's that the game forces you to be mean about it. And that issue I can get behind 100%-  there should be a option to let him down easily.

However, that's not the complaint that some people have.

In any case, it's easy to avoid turning him down and getting rivalry- just pick "Don't do it again" during one of the early dialogues after Tranquility. Or just at the end of tranquility, I can't remember.  Pretty sure it's in darktown. It's not a broken heart option, it's just a normal red option- but it's easy to miss if you don't play aggressive.

ETA:

Found it on the wiki.

Choice 1. All options result in no approval change:

• (Helpful) I'm always ready to listen.
• (Humorous) It happens a lot.
• (End romance) Don't do it again. (Conversation ends)

Modifié par Dejajeva, 05 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[TEWR]

Then the problem isn't that Anders forces his sexuality on the player

....which I said wasn't the issue. I said it was the game forcing his sexuality onto me the player, not Anders himself.

. It's that the game forces you to be mean about it. And that issue I can get behind 100%- there should be a option to let him down easily.

Well, it's not being mean that's the issue. What Hawke says isn't mean, per se. It just offends Anders, but it doesn't come off as being a douche. And I'd be fine with saying that, if the game didn't present two flirty options in my face -- the game ends up saying "Flirt with him!" -- and only one heartbreak option

There should've been the option to let him down easily. Four options at least. Two flirty, two heartbreak. And none should've affected the F/R scale.

However, that's not the complaint that some people have.

Their complaint isn't completely wrong, though their assertions certainly are. They complain that Anders is at fault, when it's indeed not him at all.

In any case, it's easy to avoid turning him down and getting rivalry- just pick "Don't do it again" during one of the early dialogues after Tranquility. Or just at the end of tranquility, I can't remember. Pretty sure it's in darktown. It's not a broken heart option, it's just a normal red option- but it's easy to miss if you don't play aggressive.

Pretty sure that would also give Rivalry as well. It's been a while. I've often had to avoid picking the diplomatic response.

And that's one of the problems with the game forcing his sexuality on me.

I was no longer able to be diplomatic towards Anders if I wasn't planning on romancing him, even if my Hawke honestly believed what the diplomatic option says.

(End romance) Don't do it again. (Conversation ends)

But what if I want to continue the conversation? What if I don't want to pick that option, but I want to be diplomatic? I can't.

If I want to continue the conversation and turn him down gently, I can't. If I want to continue the conversation but not gain disapproval, I end up having to avoid certain dialogue options. It's like a mine field.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[Dejajeva]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then the problem isn't that Anders forces his sexuality on the player

....which I said wasn't the issue. I said it was the game forcing his sexuality onto me the player, not Anders himself.

. It's that the game forces you to be mean about it. And that issue I can get behind 100%- there should be a option to let him down easily.

Correct.

However, that's not the complaint that some people have.

Their complaint isn't completely wrong, though their assertions certainly are. They complain that Anders is at fault, when it's indeed not him at all.

In any case, it's easy to avoid turning him down and getting rivalry- just pick "Don't do it again" during one of the early dialogues after Tranquility. Or just at the end of tranquility, I can't remember. Pretty sure it's in darktown. It's not a broken heart option, it's just a normal red option- but it's easy to miss if you don't play aggressive.

Pretty sure that would also give Rivalry as well. It's been a while. I've often had to avoid picking that response.

And that's one of the problems with the game forcing his sexuality on me.

I was no longer able to be diplomatic towards Anders if I wasn't planning on romancing him, even if my Hawke honestly believed what the diplomatic option says.

I just played it with my male hawke (happened to have a save right after tranquility) to double check and I gained no rivalry for choosing that option. The only problem is that it ends the conversation which prevents you from gaining any approval from later choices. But the approval you'd gain later in the conversation negates the 15+ rivalry you'd get for doing it when he hits on you, so it's null.

And I still contend they aren't forcing sexuality on you, they are forcing a reaction to his sexuality that is either accepting or mean. If they were forcing sexuality on you, you'd have to be in a gay relationship with Anders whether you liked it or not.

And I'm not telling you to pick that option, I'm just saying there IS a way to put and end to it without gaining rivalry. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not.

Modifié par Dejajeva, 05 avril 2012 - 06:14 .

[Askia32]

Companions:
I would love to have one of Morrigan's sisters as a companion. Other than that, I just hope for a group of companions that are not as whiny as Fenris and Anders. And if there is one, I hope the character is developed through the course of the game, and stops whining. All in all, I trust Gaider to introduce a new set of companions that we all will enjoy.  Hopefully they just won't be as unbending as most of his other characters are.

Romance:
I hope there will be a romance option that isn't a companion. For example, one part of the game, your stuck with a princess/prince in some type of risky situation, and the two of you fight your way out. Afterwards, she mainly stays in her castle, but you get to visit and interact with her regularly as if she was a companion, developing a relationship. Than, here and there, the two characters can have little quick adventures or dates or whatever.

I doubt it would ever happen, but I think it would be new and fun.

Modifié par Askia32, 05 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[TEWR]

I just played it with my male hawke (happened to have a save right after tranquility) to double check and I gained no rivalry for choosing that option. The only problem is that it ends the conversation which prevents you from gaining any approval from later choices. But the approval you'd gain later in the conversation negates the 15+ rivalry you'd get for doing it when he hits on you, so it's null.

That they can be considered negligible doesn't negate the issue that's present. Sure, I may not lose anything major.

But I have to compromise how my Hawke would act. If I want to actually discuss the matter diplomatically, I can't do that without gaining disapproval from Anders as a result.

If I want to not lose anything, I have to be aggressive, even if my Hawke wasn't going to be aggressive.

The game is forcing his sexuality on the player by immediately compromising how the player can choose his options.

And I'm not telling you to pick that option, I'm just saying there IS a way to put and end to it without gaining rivalry. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not.

Wasn't saying you were telling me what to pick. Merely that in order to not gain any disapproval, I have to compromise how my Hawke would act in that situation.

[tmp7704]

Dejajeva wrote...

This whole conversation just boggles my mind. I don't understand why people get so uncomfortable when someone of the same sex hits on them. Is it really so awful to be so super sexy that both sexes wanna hit it?

Like Maria has already demonstrated in her longer reply which you applauded, the answer is "yes" -- there's nothing really strange about feeling uncomfortable and "so awful" to be on receiving end of unwelcome advances. That's primarily to do with said advances being unwelcome. Whether that's due to incompatible sexuality or other factors is secondary.

Hopefully at least it's not so mind boggling and impossible to understand anymore.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[esper]

There is nothing wrong with Anders hitting on you, before Justice he was a flirt and it is no so long since his fusion. There is also nothing wrong with gaining rivalry from it with the mix-match way rivalry works in da2 cinsidering what your Hawke is saying. You could, however, have asked, why there isn't a way to turn him down politely.
A thanks, but no thanks - way.