1536 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

There is nothing wrong with Anders hitting on you, before Justice he was a flirt and it is no so long since his fusion. There is also nothing wrong with gaining rivalry from it with the mix-match way rivalry works in da2 cinsidering what your Hawke is saying. You could, however, have asked, why there isn't a way to turn him down politely.
A thanks, but no thanks - way.

Right. I don't take issue with Anders hitting on me, because there's nothing wrong with him being attracted to the PC. It's just how the game handles his flirting conversation that is the problem.

However, the bolded is where I disagree with you. That is in fact wrong. The game's relationship system was specifically touted as getting rid of "Approval and disapproval have nothing to do with friendship and rivalry".

What Anders does clearly is a violation of that principle and there is something fundamentally wrong as a result, which means that Bioware's system is flawed and in need of work. The talk with Anders following Tranquility isn't the only instance of this, but it is one of the more notable ones.

Approval and disapproval can be shown in cutscenes without affecting the relationship system.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

esper wrote...

There is nothing wrong with Anders hitting on you, before Justice he was a flirt and it is no so long since his fusion. There is also nothing wrong with gaining rivalry from it with the mix-match way rivalry works in da2 cinsidering what your Hawke is saying. You could, however, have asked, why there isn't a way to turn him down politely.
A thanks, but no thanks - way.

Right. I don't take issue with Anders hitting on me, because there's nothing wrong with him being attracted to the PC. It's just how the game handles his flirting conversation that is the problem.

However, the bolded is where I disagree with you. That is in fact wrong. The game's relationship system was specifically touted as getting rid of "Approval and disapproval have nothing to do with friendship and rivalry".

What Anders does clearly is a violation of that principle and there is something fundamentally wrong as a result, which means that Bioware's system is flawed and in need of work. The talk with Anders following Tranquility isn't the only instance of this, but it is one of the more notable ones.

Approval and disapproval can be shown in cutscenes without affecting the relationship system.

From the way Anders work and from what you are saying (which he indeed see as you trying to tell him to think a specific way, which is consistent with him getting rivalry) Anders is very easy to hurt when it comes to his mind. He quickly jumps to conclusion about your characther when that's the topic-

Which again bring us to the, please give us a polite way of turning characthers down.

[TEWR]

From the way Anders work and from what you are saying (which he indeed see as you trying to tell him to think a specific way, which is consistent with him getting rivalry) Anders is very easy to hurt when it comes to his mind. He quickly jumps to conclusion about your characther when that's the topic-

Friendship and Rivalry was also said to deal with only the major issues of the companions. For Merrill, it's blood magic, stuff regarding Elves, knowledge, demons, etc.

For Anders, it's supposed to be regarding his merging with Justice and where Hawke stands on mage rights. Not whether Hawke is interested in him or not. Hawke isn't disparaging Anders for his merger with Justice, nor saying Mages shouldn't have rights.

All he's doing is saying, rather bluntly, that he's not interested in Anders.

The disapproval/disappointment in the cutscene Anders gives for what Hawke says when you choose the heartbroken line fits with his persona. The Rivalry gained is a blatant correlation to disapproval, rendering the system flawed.

Which again bring us to the, please give us a polite way of turning characthers down.

Right. Preferably, flirting with them or choosing the heartbroken option should lead to approval or disapproval in the scene, but not as a gain on the scale.

Because that's not how the system is supposed to operate.

[Cat Fancy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The disapproval/disappointment in the cutscene Anders gives for what Hawke says when you choose the heartbroken line fits with his persona. The Rivalry gained is a blatant correlation to disapproval, rendering the system flawed.

I got the impression from the game (who knows what the devs said) that the friendship/rivalry system existed to allow you to have a relationship with someone even if they disapproved of your actions, which you couldn't, really, in DAO without gift giving. You get a lot of rivalry in DAII from companions disapproving of your actions, even if your actions don't necessarily have much to do with their character arcs (and you get rivalry because you do things they disapprove of that are related to their character arcs). I do agree that the system is flawed, but only because it's too easy to get yourself into a neutral rut. Like with Isabela, if Hawke's both a) fun and not a sociopath.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

From the way Anders work and from what you are saying (which he indeed see as you trying to tell him to think a specific way, which is consistent with him getting rivalry) Anders is very easy to hurt when it comes to his mind. He quickly jumps to conclusion about your characther when that's the topic-

Friendship and Rivalry was also said to deal with only the major issues of the companions. For Merrill, it's blood magic, stuff regarding Elves, knowledge, demons, etc.

For Anders, it's supposed to be regarding his merging with Justice and where Hawke stands on mage rights. Not whether Hawke is interested in him or not. Hawke isn't disparaging Anders for his merger with Justice, nor saying Mages shouldn't have rights.

All he's doing is saying, rather bluntly, that he's not interested in Anders.

The disapproval/disappointment in the cutscene Anders gives for what Hawke says when you choose the heartbroken line fits with his persona. The Rivalry gained is a blatant correlation to disapproval, rendering the system flawed.

Which again bring us to the, please give us a polite way of turning characthers down.

Right. Preferably, flirting with them or choosing the heartbroken option should lead to approval or disapproval in the scene, but not as a gain on the scale.

Because that's not how the system is supposed to operate.

It never, ever did that. Which was why I called it a mix-match system. Or at least it only touched the red tape issues on a tangent for most of the companions and you really have to think it through. I liked the frinedship/rivalry system, but it wasn't consistent enough for any of the characthers.

If you really want to think it through, you could say that Anders was thinking that Hawke want to control his mind, meaning that Hawke wants to say what is right and not, meaning that Hawke is not for Anders since Hawke is saying that Anders is wrong, meaning that Haawke is against him, and being against him means that you are either not pro-mage or critizing Anders in his merging with Justice (In the later years those two even fuse together into one).  I like Anders as much as you like Merrill, but he has his flaws, one of the biggest being. For me or against me - attitude.

[Silver77nz]

Cullen pretty please:D Stop teasing me with Cullen and make him a LI. Plus some new shiny and interesting LI would be a step in the right direction. Hopefully not always depressed or angry:P

[Dejajeva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

This whole conversation just boggles my mind. I don't understand why people get so uncomfortable when someone of the same sex hits on them. Is it really so awful to be so super sexy that both sexes wanna hit it?

Like Maria has already demonstrated in her longer reply which you applauded, the answer is "yes" -- there's nothing really strange about feeling uncomfortable and "so awful" to be on receiving end of unwelcome advances. That's primarily to do with said advances being unwelcome. Whether that's due to incompatible sexuality or other factors is secondary.

Hopefully at least it's not so mind boggling and impossible to understand anymore.

Touche.

But just so we're clear, Maria and I were talking about two different kinds of things. If a guy flirts with me, I turn him down, well, whatever, I'm flatttered. If a guy puts his hand on my ass at a bar, that's altogether a new kind of thing.
Anders didn't put his hand on the PC's ass and start grinding. I suspect we could all talk each other into circles though at this point, so arguing it any further would be counter productive. I see your point and respect it. 

[TEWR]

It never, ever did that. Which was why I called it a mix-match system. Or at least it only touched the red tape issues on a tangent for most of the companions and you really have to think it through. I liked the frinedship/rivalry system, but it wasn't consistent enough for any of the characthers.

That's the problem. That it didn't serve its intended purpose -- as stated by Bioware prior to DAII's release -- and was heavily flawed is the problem, and why it's in need of refinement.

That's why Anders is such a glaring issue with the system in that moment. Because the system wasn't supposed to be approval and disapproval nor was it supposed to deal with things unrelated to their major issues.

But it still does.

If you really want to think it through, you could say that Anders was thinking that Hawke want to control his mind, meaning that Hawke wants to say what is right and not, meaning that Hawke is not for Anders since Hawke is saying that Anders is wrong, meaning that Haawke is against him, and being against him means that you are either not pro-mage or critizing Anders in his merging with Justice (In the later years those two even fuse together into one). I like Anders as much as you like Merrill, but he has his flaws, one of the biggest being. For me or against me - attitude.

I've never been a fan of how Anders' Rivalry path was handled. It just seemed cheap how you can be pro-mage and anti-Anders yet he conflates the two things into one.

[Mmw04014]

Dejajeva wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

This whole conversation just boggles my mind. I don't understand why people get so uncomfortable when someone of the same sex hits on them. Is it really so awful to be so super sexy that both sexes wanna hit it?

Like Maria has already demonstrated in her longer reply which you applauded, the answer is "yes" -- there's nothing really strange about feeling uncomfortable and "so awful" to be on receiving end of unwelcome advances. That's primarily to do with said advances being unwelcome. Whether that's due to incompatible sexuality or other factors is secondary.

Hopefully at least it's not so mind boggling and impossible to understand anymore.

Touche.

But just so we're clear, Maria and I were talking about two different kinds of things. If a guy flirts with me, I turn him down, well, whatever, I'm flatttered. If a guy puts his hand on my ass at a bar, that's altogether a new kind of thing.
Anders didn't put his hand on the PC's ass and start grinding. I suspect we could all talk each other into circles though at this point, so arguing it any further would be counter productive. I see your point and respect it. 

My only real problem was that there was no turn him down gently option. I generally don't like character flirting with the PC without prompting from me first but if they do, I want to be able to just say what you just said, flattered but not interested. With Anders, you either had to flirt with him or be a jerk to him, there was no middle ground. The rivalry points don't bother me because even if you were nice, they still would probably be hurt, but you can't even be nice. I distinctly remember being able to turn Zevran down nicely but you still get disapproval, which I think was good! It actually made sense.

[tmp7704]

Dejajeva wrote...

Touche.

But just so we're clear, Maria and I were talking about two different kinds of things. If a guy flirts with me, I turn him down, well, whatever, I'm flatttered. If a guy puts his hand on my ass at a bar, that's altogether a new kind of thing.
Anders didn't put his hand on the PC's ass and start grinding. I suspect we could all talk each other into circles though at this point, so arguing it any further would be counter productive. I see your point and respect it. 

Yeah, i do see the difference there as well. I was focusing more on the aspect that while such difference can be drawn, it can also be a rather individual thing -- someone who gets flirted with simply will turn that person down, while someone else can feel uncomfortable with the whole ordeal (either because of who that flirting person is, or because turning someone down causes them anxiety, or yet other reasons) And so it's not really that mind-boggling that someone actually could feel uncomfortable in such situation.  Since as you say you see where i'm coming from here, there doesn't seem to be any need to argue about it further

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 avril 2012 - 03:33 .

[Dejajeva]

Let's talk about Charade.

I missed her in a few of my quick playthroughs- but found it very satisfying when I did complete the quest. I wouldn't mind seeing her at all as a NPC or a companion in DA3. I think it'd be very cool to have someone related to my Hawke be a part of the team. I wouldn't mind her having a look overhaul though. She looks just like every other NPC does.

[Foxbat Killer]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Quit playing the homophobia card. The same rule applies to opposite sex romances. For example if Merril tried to force herself on my Hawke I'd have tried to make Hawke commit suicide. I don't want any character pinning me in a corner like Anders did out of the blue.

I was actually going for the 'straight male privilege' card.

I'm going to guess that you've never walked down the street and had a group of guys make whistling/woofing noises or yell out comments about your body. You've probably had a complete stranger grab your ass in a dance club or demand to buy you a drink and physically block you when you try to get away. You've probably never said 'no' when a guy asked you out, and then have him show up at your house and sit in his car outside for several hours.

That is, you have no idea what it means for someone to try to force their sexuality on you, so you conflate a rather normal interaction (guy hits on you and gets pouty when you say no) as being forced.

Have you ever asked someone out or told them that you were attracted to them? Have you ever been rejected and felt bad about it?

If you answer yes, by your own criteria, you've forced your sexuality on others. Even if you're lucky enough to have never been rejected or have never felt bad about it, I consider Ander's reaction to be perfectly understandable.

Hell, if I faulted the companions for being petty or less than perfect, I'd only be left with Varric's chesthair.

You make some good points but a lot of your examples involve a stranger or acquaintance, not one of your closest companions who knows you've chosen somebody else or that you aren't interested in their gender.

The main problem with Anders was that it came out of the blue (and also that they completely changed his character from Awakening).  It just didn't come off as natural and there was no way to gently let him down.  I don't want to be friends with/have a companion that doesn't respect that I have either (a) chosen a different partner or ( am not interested in their gender.  

I felt like Bioware made me lead Anders on when I never would have if I had full control over my character.  Essentially, I want the ability to clearly friendzone characters.

[hussey 92]

Obviously Anders would feel bad about being rejected. What people don't like is that it seems like if you don't romance him your prone to get some disapproval

[Darkwingduck]

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Quit playing the homophobia card. The same rule applies to opposite sex romances. For example if Merril tried to force herself on my Hawke I'd have tried to make Hawke commit suicide. I don't want any character pinning me in a corner like Anders did out of the blue.

I was actually going for the 'straight male privilege' card.

I'm going to guess that you've never walked down the street and had a group of guys make whistling/woofing noises or yell out comments about your body. You've probably had a complete stranger grab your ass in a dance club or demand to buy you a drink and physically block you when you try to get away. You've probably never said 'no' when a guy asked you out, and then have him show up at your house and sit in his car outside for several hours.

That is, you have no idea what it means for someone to try to force their sexuality on you, so you conflate a rather normal interaction (guy hits on you and gets pouty when you say no) as being forced.

Have you ever asked someone out or told them that you were attracted to them? Have you ever been rejected and felt bad about it?

If you answer yes, by your own criteria, you've forced your sexuality on others. Even if you're lucky enough to have never been rejected or have never felt bad about it, I consider Ander's reaction to be perfectly understandable.

Hell, if I faulted the companions for being petty or less than perfect, I'd only be left with Varric's chesthair.

You make some good points but a lot of your examples involve a stranger or acquaintance, not one of your closest companions who knows you've chosen somebody else or that you aren't interested in their gender.

The main problem with Anders was that it came out of the blue (and also that they completely changed his character from Awakening).  It just didn't come off as natural and there was no way to gently let him down.  I don't want to be friends with/have a companion that doesn't respect that I have either (a) chosen a different partner or ( am not interested in their gender.  

I felt like Bioware made me lead Anders on when I never would have if I had full control over my character.  Essentially, I want the ability to clearly friendzone characters.

I don't think Hawke ever tells Anders "hey I only like girls o.k?" But trust me it's not uncommon for friends to get the wrong idea about the behaviour of another. I was out with a group of coworkers one of which I was friends with and we always joked around and such. Anyways he asked me to go out for a smoke with him and then tried to shove his tongue down my throat so maybe we should all just be grateful that Anders has more tact than that. 


I do agree that being able to friendzone companions would be nice. 

[hussey 92]

Darkwingduck wrote...

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Foxbat Killer wrote...

Quit playing the homophobia card. The same rule applies to opposite sex romances. For example if Merril tried to force herself on my Hawke I'd have tried to make Hawke commit suicide. I don't want any character pinning me in a corner like Anders did out of the blue.

I was actually going for the 'straight male privilege' card.

I'm going to guess that you've never walked down the street and had a group of guys make whistling/woofing noises or yell out comments about your body. You've probably had a complete stranger grab your ass in a dance club or demand to buy you a drink and physically block you when you try to get away. You've probably never said 'no' when a guy asked you out, and then have him show up at your house and sit in his car outside for several hours.

That is, you have no idea what it means for someone to try to force their sexuality on you, so you conflate a rather normal interaction (guy hits on you and gets pouty when you say no) as being forced.

Have you ever asked someone out or told them that you were attracted to them? Have you ever been rejected and felt bad about it?

If you answer yes, by your own criteria, you've forced your sexuality on others. Even if you're lucky enough to have never been rejected or have never felt bad about it, I consider Ander's reaction to be perfectly understandable.

Hell, if I faulted the companions for being petty or less than perfect, I'd only be left with Varric's chesthair.

You make some good points but a lot of your examples involve a stranger or acquaintance, not one of your closest companions who knows you've chosen somebody else or that you aren't interested in their gender.

The main problem with Anders was that it came out of the blue (and also that they completely changed his character from Awakening).  It just didn't come off as natural and there was no way to gently let him down.  I don't want to be friends with/have a companion that doesn't respect that I have either (a) chosen a different partner or ( am not interested in their gender.  

I felt like Bioware made me lead Anders on when I never would have if I had full control over my character.  Essentially, I want the ability to clearly friendzone characters.

I don't think Hawke ever tells Anders "hey I only like girls o.k?" But trust me it's not uncommon for friends to get the wrong idea about the behaviour of another. I was out with a group of coworkers one of which I was friends with and we always joked around and such. Anyways he asked me to go out for a smoke with him and then tried to shove his tongue down my throat so maybe we should all just be grateful that Anders has more tact than that. 


I do agree that being able to friendzone companions would be nice. 

Coworker +10 rivalry

and who still whistles?

[Dessalines]

I just think that they need to work on relationships better. I enjoy the characters having their own lives, and interacting with each other without you in Dragon Age 2 I enjoyed walking in on them talking with each other. If you can mix those types of cutscenes with the stand around scenes of the same nature of Mass Effect 3, then that would be amazing.
Lol, what is with the monogamy, unless the somewhere early in the midpoint is marriage, can we not be nailed down to this in every single game.

[Maria Caliban]

Anders is not one of your closet companions when he hits on you. I want to say it's the first conversation you have with him after you do his Karl quest and before you head down into the Deep Roads.

[AkiKishi]

It's about time a CRPG had a "Harem" ending.

[FKA_Servo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders is not one of your closet companions when he hits on you. I want to say it's the first conversation you have with him after you do his Karl quest and before you head down into the Deep Roads.

Yep, this is where it happens. I wanna say that it's possible to get this conversation before you meet (and have the opportunity to flirt with) any of the other potential love interests. Anders is very much just testing the waters with someone he hasn't known very long.

Also, speaking generally - it's ten rivalry. A drop in the ocean. As long as you're nice to him, Anders will love you (platonically) forever.

Modifié par TommyServo, 05 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Eudaemonium]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Anders is not one of your closet companions when he hits on you. I want to say it's the first conversation you have with him after you do his Karl quest and before you head down into the Deep Roads.

I believe you're right. You finish Tranquility, recruit him, and then talk to him and it triggers the dialogue. Unless they are talking about the one in Act 2 when he hits on you, but I've never had that trigger so I don't know.

Btw, your previous post about straight male privilege was amazing.

[Maria Caliban]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's about time a CRPG had a "Harem" ending.

A male PC in Jade Empire could hook up with Silk Fox and Dawn Star at the end. Though I believe that a dev called this an easter egg.

[Vovea]

Wishes for romance? An Irish guy.



...That is all.

[NedPepper]

Rachey187 wrote...

esper wrote...

Rachey187 wrote...

I really don't think all characters need to be bisexual. A character is created to be like a human and not all humans are bisexual. I have no problem with the bisexual characters, hell i've romanced a few. I just don't think it's appropriate for them all to be available to everyone. Ok, i'd be annoyed if the only gay option was a whiny brat, but i'd also be sad if characters like Alistair, Morrigan and Sebastian were gay as it goes against everything in their characters...

I am going to ask how it would detract from Alistar and Morrigan's characther if they were bi. Would Alistar be less bumbling, suddenly? Morrigan less against love? All the obstacles in the romances have nothing to do with gender. Alistar was him being unused to flirting, not really willing to have sex outside marriage before a certain point, and then the king thing. Morrigans was her aversion towards love and of course the dark ritual.

I don't see how them being open to both genders would detract anything from their characthers.  

Being bisexual just doesn't suit Alistair's character... it really just doesn't. It's not a bad thing, i don't understand why it has to be? I did't say it would detract from their characters, it wouldn't, it just wouldn't suit them.
Morrigan i suppose it would suit, but she's like an ice queen, i find it difficult to imagine her romancing anyone. 
I'm not sure where you read me saying it would detract from their characters, but i most certainly didn't. I'm not against bisexuality in any way shape or form... i just don't understand why every character has to be open to everyone, even if it doesn't suit their characters.... It just doesn't make sense and i don't want Bioware to Implement it! 

I agree.  Alistar doesn't give off a bi vibe at all.  More homosexual.    (Seriously, I really thought he was on the first play through...would have been interesting.  The King's bastard son...is gay.  Admit it, that would have been a interesting development.)

[berelinde]

It's really sad that we're still talking about the bi thing on page 20 of a romance wish list... and have been for many, many pages.

Don't get me wrong! I'm all for all-bi romance options because it means more options for the player and that's always a good thing in my book. It's just that there are so many other qualities that a potential LI could possess, and they deserve some mention, too.

Has angst level been utilized enough? OK, in DA2, both male LIs had it in spades, but maybe this could be a way to separate one LI from another in future games.

Maybe one LI has existential angst. He has a rather high level of self-awareness and is unsatisfied with the man he has allowed himself to become. He'd like to change, but maybe he isn't sure that he can and still remain true to the beliefs which, coincidentally, he still believes are valid. Relationship as therapy? Maybe, yeah, but why must that always be viewed as a negative? If he's entertaining, perhaps with a bent for sarcasm and self-effacing humor, it might be fun.

Maybe the other guy is the epitome of chill. Nothing gets under this guy's skin... including the PC. It isn't that he won't flirt. He'll play along and have a good time doing it, but it's all just a game to him, and the realization that actual feelings are on the line may come as quite a surprise to him.

I'm talking about male NPCs here because I like to romance male NPCs. They're two I thought up in about 15 seconds. I'm sure everybody else can think of much better candidates for their wish list.