1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Amycus89]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just curious what others have to think about this.  It is important to note that I'm not the biggest fan of Romances in RPGs, mostly because I find that they just seem kind of off (Sorry David... ).  Usually I come away enjoying them, but it's the other aspects of the writing that a typically really like.

One of my favourite romances, though, came from Planescape: Torment.  Anyone that has played Planescape: Torment can probably understand where I'm coming from (I strongly recommend it.  Some of the best writing in fiction as far as I'm concerned), but I'll describe it a bit for those that may not have played it.


The one I am thinking of is with a succubus named Fall-From-Grace.  I find her a very deep character and a caring and compassionate one to boot, which is interesting because she's a succubus!  The PC and FFG are able to become close, but ultimately the relationship can never be truly consumated given the fact that she's a succubus.  I found it fascinating to have such an interesting character that I feel has such great chemistry with the PC, but ultimately the outcome is tragic because they're never able to express it in a physical way.

I also find it refreshing in that it's unique; most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter.


I think that, in general, a romance like this would probably meet some resistance in a BioWare game based on our game catalogue and how we've done romances, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what BSN's take on it was.

Cheers!

Completely agree. I think I have said it before on these boards, but the recent romances in Bioware games have made it so it feels like the ultimate goal is simply to get into the NPCs pants in a one night stand... Well, this part from your post pretty much defines the problem with the most recent Bioware romances:

"most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter. "

I wouldn't want to skip the romances completely, but I do wish that they could focus a bit less on the love scenes.  Both Fall-from-grace and Annah from planescape:torment moved away from all this (heck, those who romanced fall-from-grace didn't even get a kiss).

Modifié par Amycus89, 12 avril 2012 - 12:35 .

[tmp7704]

HanErlik wrote...

Justin Bieber as a bi LI.

This would be great with new direction of Bioware

Only if he glitters in sunlight.

[Siduri]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think that, in general, a romance like this would probably meet some resistance in a BioWare game based on our game catalogue and how we've done romances, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what BSN's take on it was.

One thing that surprised me in the feedback I've been getting from the unofficial Mass Effect epilogue slides is how many people wanted a Samara epilogue. I wasn't aware, because I never tried to romance her, but you can actually get very close to Samara -- and the relationship *is* romantic, though never consummated.

It's the closest thing I can think of in a BioWare game to what you're talking about. And I can tell you that storyline does have its fans

Modifié par Siduri, 12 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[Shared]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just curious what others have to think about this.  It is important to note that I'm not the biggest fan of Romances in RPGs, mostly because I find that they just seem kind of off (Sorry David... ).  Usually I come away enjoying them, but it's the other aspects of the writing that a typically really like.

One of my favourite romances, though, came from Planescape: Torment.  Anyone that has played Planescape: Torment can probably understand where I'm coming from (I strongly recommend it.  Some of the best writing in fiction as far as I'm concerned), but I'll describe it a bit for those that may not have played it.


The one I am thinking of is with a succubus named Fall-From-Grace.  I find her a very deep character and a caring and compassionate one to boot, which is interesting because she's a succubus!  The PC and FFG are able to become close, but ultimately the relationship can never be truly consumated given the fact that she's a succubus.  I found it fascinating to have such an interesting character that I feel has such great chemistry with the PC, but ultimately the outcome is tragic because they're never able to express it in a physical way.

I also find it refreshing in that it's unique; most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter.


I think that, in general, a romance like this would probably meet some resistance in a BioWare game based on our game catalogue and how we've done romances, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what BSN's take on it was.

Cheers!

Well in the ME universe i really liked the romances since it went over several games. You could see the LI grow etc etc. But they should/could have done alot more abot it. Make the interaction mean more. In DA2 i didnt find any of the romances verry good, maybe except Isabella, since you actually have to let her run off/loose her, but she changes and comes back and does something she normally wouldnt (and in my canon she did it for love! nothing else ). In da:o the fem warden/allistar romance when you are human noble i really liked. Because it was "complete", and you had to make some pretty damning sacrifices to make it work.

But for my taste they should do alot more out of the romances. With more twists and turns, maybe even make you LI become a liability at some point. Im not entierly sure exactly what i would wan't. But i would like it to make a significant impact on your personal story/development in the game. And yes i like the BioWare way to do this, and to be fair the dragon age games lasted 1 year for origins, and 10 year for DA2. Not "doing it" would seem wierd. Same goes for ME.

[LolaLei]

Amycus89 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just curious what others have to think about this.  It is important to note that I'm not the biggest fan of Romances in RPGs, mostly because I find that they just seem kind of off (Sorry David... ).  Usually I come away enjoying them, but it's the other aspects of the writing that a typically really like.

One of my favourite romances, though, came from Planescape: Torment.  Anyone that has played Planescape: Torment can probably understand where I'm coming from (I strongly recommend it.  Some of the best writing in fiction as far as I'm concerned), but I'll describe it a bit for those that may not have played it.


The one I am thinking of is with a succubus named Fall-From-Grace.  I find her a very deep character and a caring and compassionate one to boot, which is interesting because she's a succubus!  The PC and FFG are able to become close, but ultimately the relationship can never be truly consumated given the fact that she's a succubus.  I found it fascinating to have such an interesting character that I feel has such great chemistry with the PC, but ultimately the outcome is tragic because they're never able to express it in a physical way.

I also find it refreshing in that it's unique; most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter.


I think that, in general, a romance like this would probably meet some resistance in a BioWare game based on our game catalogue and how we've done romances, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what BSN's take on it was.

Cheers!

Completely agree. I think I have said it before on these boards, but the recent romances in Bioware games have made it so it feels like the ultimate goal is simply to get into the NPCs pants in a one night stand... Well, this part from your post pretty much defines the problem with the most recent Bioware romances:

"most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter. "

I wouldn't want to skip the romances completely, but I do wish that they could focus a bit less on the love scenes.  Both Fall-from-grace and Annah from planescape:torment moved away from all this (heck, those who romanced fall-from-grace didn't even get a kiss).

I think it doesn't help that once you do finally sleep with the love interest the romance story arc pretty much ends, it's like you spend a whole chunk of the game wooing the character just to get in their pants and then after that theres very little romantic interaction between them (particularly in DA2.) Maybe having subtle changes in dialogue and interaction in game would make the romance feel less like "the priiize" and more natural. For example, as the romance progresses you see the characters interactions change from neutral, to friendly, to giving each other wistful looks when the other isn't looking, checking each other out, flirting, light touching of the hand during conversations stuff like that which would continue on after the sex scene. Just those extra little touches to make you feel a connection between the protagonist and his/her love interest.

Having a large quest for each love interest that drastically impacts on the playable character and her surroundings would be a nice touch also. Say for example, you're romantically pursuing Cullen (hint hint) as a mage and he admits his feelings for you and you have a little kiss, but he has a sudden attack of guilt due to his Templar beliefs and disappears that same night. You're then forced to carry on the game without him, with the option of pursuing other romantic relationships; during some random quest a group of Templars capture/torture you and your companions locking you all up somewhere, some how Cullen gets word of this and you as the player get to take control of him as he searches for you and comes to your rescue. Back at camp you have a heart-to-heart with him and he explains why he left and you discover that your life was in danger by having him around because the Divine was searching for him after the events of DA2 when he aided the Champion in killing Meredith. He had returned to the Templars to face his punishment in order to spare your life because "he luuurves you" but the Templars captured you regardless so he escaped in order to rescue you. You then get the option to kick him out of camp, keep him on board but tell him you've moved on with another romantic relationship, promise to dump the other person if you "cheated" or rekindle the relationship and pick up where you left off if you stayed faithful (kinda like in ME3 with Kaidan/Ashley.)

I wouldn't be adverse to tragic romance. After all, Sebastian's romance in DA2 it was a completely chasted relationship and he's really popular with the fans... the only problem I had with it was that the relationship wasn't executed particularly well, so rather than his romance arc feeling deep and emotionally intriguing like Fall-from-grace, it instead felt rather lackluster and neglected.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 avril 2012 - 03:24 .

[Siduri]

LolaLei wrote...

I wouldn't be adverse to tragic romance. After all, Sebastian's romance in DA2 it was a completely chasted relationship and he's really popular with the fans...

Yeah, but a lot of them are in complete denial about the meaning of the word "chaste." If you follow the Sebastian threads, there's a ton of bending-over-backwards and tying words in knots to try and get to a "chaste marriage" where they still get to shag Sebastian senseless.

[LolaLei]

Siduri wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I wouldn't be adverse to tragic romance. After all, Sebastian's romance in DA2 it was a completely chasted relationship and he's really popular with the fans...

Yeah, but a lot of them are in complete denial about the meaning of the word "chaste." If you follow the Sebastian threads, there's a ton of bending-over-backwards and tying words in knots to try and get to a "chaste marriage" where they still get to shag Sebastian senseless.

Lmao! And that's because they didn't make the romance arc clear enough in DA2, if they had expanded upon it then people would have realised, accepted it but still been happy to continue the relationship with him with or without sex.

... I dare say Seb would cave in eventually anyway, he seems a bit conflicted about his faith.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[Dejajeva]

The story of Cullen is not over! Blasphemy!

[Amycus89]

LolaLei wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just curious what others have to think about this.  It is important to note that I'm not the biggest fan of Romances in RPGs, mostly because I find that they just seem kind of off (Sorry David... ).  Usually I come away enjoying them, but it's the other aspects of the writing that a typically really like.

One of my favourite romances, though, came from Planescape: Torment.  Anyone that has played Planescape: Torment can probably understand where I'm coming from (I strongly recommend it.  Some of the best writing in fiction as far as I'm concerned), but I'll describe it a bit for those that may not have played it.


The one I am thinking of is with a succubus named Fall-From-Grace.  I find her a very deep character and a caring and compassionate one to boot, which is interesting because she's a succubus!  The PC and FFG are able to become close, but ultimately the relationship can never be truly consumated given the fact that she's a succubus.  I found it fascinating to have such an interesting character that I feel has such great chemistry with the PC, but ultimately the outcome is tragic because they're never able to express it in a physical way.

I also find it refreshing in that it's unique; most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter.


I think that, in general, a romance like this would probably meet some resistance in a BioWare game based on our game catalogue and how we've done romances, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what BSN's take on it was.

Cheers!

Completely agree. I think I have said it before on these boards, but the recent romances in Bioware games have made it so it feels like the ultimate goal is simply to get into the NPCs pants in a one night stand... Well, this part from your post pretty much defines the problem with the most recent Bioware romances:

"most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter. "

I wouldn't want to skip the romances completely, but I do wish that they could focus a bit less on the love scenes.  Both Fall-from-grace and Annah from planescape:torment moved away from all this (heck, those who romanced fall-from-grace didn't even get a kiss).

I think it doesn't help that once you do finally sleep with the love interest the romance story arc pretty much ends, it's like you spend a whole chunk of the game wooing the character just to get in their pants and then after that theres very little romantic interaction between them (particularly in DA2.) Maybe having subtle changes in dialogue and interaction in game would make the romance feel less like "the priiize" and more natural. For example, as the romance progresses you see the characters interactions change from neutral, to friendly, to giving each other wistful looks when the other isn't looking, checking each other out, flirting, light touching of the hand during conversations stuff like that which would continue on after the sex scene. Just those extra little touches to make you feel a connection between the protagonist and his/her love interest.

Having a large quest for each love interest that drastically impacts on the playable character and her surroundings would be a nice touch also. Say for example, you're romantically pursuing Cullen (hint hint) as a mage and he admits his feelings for you and you have a little kiss, but he has a sudden attack of guilt due to his Templar beliefs and disappears that same night. You're then forced to carry on the game without him, with the option of pursuing other romantic relationships; during some random quest a group of Templars capture/torture you and your companions locking you all up somewhere, some how Cullen gets word of this and you as the player get to take control of him as he searches for you and comes to your rescue. Back at camp you have a heart-to-heart with him and he explains why he left and you discover that your life was in danger by having him around because the Divine was searching for him after the events of DA2 when he aided the Champion in killing Meredith. He had returned to the Templars to face his punishment in order to spare your life because "he luuurves you" but the Templars captured you regardless so he escaped in order to rescue you. You then get the option to kick him out of camp, keep him on board but tell him you've moved on with another romantic relationship, promise to dump the other person if you "cheated" or rekindle the relationship and pick up where you left off if you stayed faithful (kinda like in ME3 with Kaidan/Ashley.)

I wouldn't be adverse to tragic romance. After all, Sebastian's romance in DA2 it was a completely chasted relationship and he's really popular with the fans... the only problem I had with it was that the relationship wasn't executed particularly well, so rather than his romance arc feeling deep and emotionally intriguing like Fall-from-grace, it instead felt rather lackluster and neglected.

What you describe is pretty much how Jaheira's romance was handled in BG2. And it worked well there too (she had several questlines you had to find and complete in order to make it work). the very first "romantic dialogue" felt a bit forced there, but after that it felt pretty natural. I never spent much time with sebastian, so I don't know how the romance was, but I did think that it would be interesting to see some more "chaste" relationships for whatever reason (to avoid the more common trend among Bioware romances). Whether that be because you are deadly succubus or just because of religious faith. 

[Siduri]

LolaLei wrote...

... I dare say Seb would cave in eventually anyway, he seems a bit conflicted about his faith.

Trust me, there's plenty of fanfic out there that follows exactly this line of reasoning. Some of it really fun and enjoyable.

I'm just saying, the romance story as written and the romance story as the fans have construed it are, in Sebastian's case, fairly radically different.

[LolaLei]

Siduri wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

... I dare say Seb would cave in eventually anyway, he seems a bit conflicted about his faith.

Trust me, there's plenty of fanfic out there that follows exactly this line of reasoning. Some of it really fun and enjoyable.

I'm just saying, the romance story as written and the romance story as the fans have construed it are, in Sebastian's case, fairly radically different.

Amusing though! Gotta love fanfiction!

[Sylvanpyxie]

... I dare say Seb would cave in eventually anyway, he seems a bit conflicted about his faith.

His faith is the one thing he *isn't* conflicted about. Where he belongs in his faith? Yes. But not his faith itself... Alas this is a tad off-topic for me.

I tend to only pursue romances in Bioware games as a way to unlock more dialogue that i wouldn't otherwise see. So i wouldn't call myself a "fan" of romances. With that in mind:

One of the few romances i willingly pursued for the sake of romance was Viconia in Baldur's Gate, and one thing i utterly loved about it was the fact it was full of consequences. If you put a foot wrong with Viconia the romance would drop.

It required you to understand her. More importantly it required you to see things from her perspective and try to be as understanding about her views as possible. You couldn't just disagree with everything she was/believed because she would drop you like a sack of bricks.

That's something that i've discovered Bioware romances are beginning to lack. There's just no consequences. Everyone is so eager to ride the Player like an unruly bull that they really don't care if the Player agrees with his/her most fundamentals beliefs and world views.

I played Dragon Age Origins as a Man a while ago and i could quite literally disagree with *everything* Morrigan said or did, ply her with gifts, and boom. Romance. I was utterly flabber-ghasted. If there was ever a character that would tell you to shove it, Morrigan seemed to be the one, and the fact that she didn't just... Utterly blew my mind in the most horrible way.

I think it's largely a case of how relationship progression, be it romantic or friendly, is tied so closely to influence and not to the dialogue options themselves. With everything revolving around a statistic that is easily bested by a few gifts or clever companion swapping there's no way to tie in heavy consequences.

I really do miss the days of dialogue driven progression, it felt much less like an influence grind. I also enjoyed the feeling that i could utterly screw up my relationship with a character, simply because our personalities were too different to be compatible.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 12 avril 2012 - 04:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

I was able to get Morrigan up to a very high Approval rating while keeping her with me all the time and playing a good type, but only via some metagame wrangling and... diplomatic conversation options.

[GodWood]

ShadyKat wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Just ditch the romances entirely.

Will not happen. Romances are a staple in Bioware's games, since forever. No way are they removed.

Oh I know.

A guy can dream though.

[Melca36]

I want the romances to look like adults and not in their teens and early twenties.

I want the men to look like men and women to look like men no matter if they are human, elf, or dwarf.

[Melca36]

LolaLei wrote...


I wouldn't be adverse to tragic romance. After all, Sebastian's romance
in DA2 it was a completely chasted relationship and he's really popular
with the fans... the only problem I had with it was that the
relationship wasn't executed particularly well, so rather than his
romance arc feeling deep and emotionally intriguing like
Fall-from-grace, it instead felt rather lackluster and neglected.

Popular? He has a very vocal minority of supporters.  For Sebastian to come back, he would have to have undergo a complete character evolution.

At this point, the only time I'd be happy to see him back is if he has a drunk cameo in DA:3 like Alistair's in DA:2.

Modifié par Melca36, 12 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[taine]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just curious what others have to think about this.  It is important to note that I'm not the biggest fan of Romances in RPGs, mostly because I find that they just seem kind of off (Sorry David... ).  Usually I come away enjoying them, but it's the other aspects of the writing that a typically really like.

One of my favourite romances, though, came from Planescape: Torment.  Anyone that has played Planescape: Torment can probably understand where I'm coming from (I strongly recommend it.  Some of the best writing in fiction as far as I'm concerned), but I'll describe it a bit for those that may not have played it.


The one I am thinking of is with a succubus named Fall-From-Grace.  I find her a very deep character and a caring and compassionate one to boot, which is interesting because she's a succubus!  The PC and FFG are able to become close, but ultimately the relationship can never be truly consumated given the fact that she's a succubus.  I found it fascinating to have such an interesting character that I feel has such great chemistry with the PC, but ultimately the outcome is tragic because they're never able to express it in a physical way.

I also find it refreshing in that it's unique; most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter.


I think that, in general, a romance like this would probably meet some resistance in a BioWare game based on our game catalogue and how we've done romances, but I thought it'd be interesting to see what BSN's take on it was.

Cheers!

I tend to agree with you on most points. Romances in video games have never really worked for me, as due to their optional nature they always feel like a tacked on aspect of the game. If they manage to become central to the narrative then imo they could work better. Of course, this would mean they were no longer optional, and would risk ticking off a fairly large segment of players who don't want their character to be shoehorned into something. 

That they were compelling in Torment without even really being 'romances' as such is just a testament to Chris Avellone being a f*cking genius. 

[LolaLei]

Melca36 wrote...

I want the romances to look like adults and not in their teens and early twenties.

I want the men to look like men and women to look like men no matter if they are human, elf, or dwarf.

You want your women to look like men? ... Whatever floats your boat I guess!

[LolaLei]

Melca36 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...


I wouldn't be adverse to tragic romance. After all, Sebastian's romance
in DA2 it was a completely chasted relationship and he's really popular
with the fans... the only problem I had with it was that the
relationship wasn't executed particularly well, so rather than his
romance arc feeling deep and emotionally intriguing like
Fall-from-grace, it instead felt rather lackluster and neglected.

Popular? He has a very vocal minority of supporters.  For suggestion to come back, he would have to have undergo a complete character evolution.

At this point, the only time I'd be happy to see him back is if he has a drunk cameo in DA:3 like Alistair's in DA:2.

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't a Seb romancer or anything... apart from once just out of curiosity. I wouldn't be too fussed if he came back or not really.

[Sylvanpyxie]

He has a very vocal minority of supporters.

They're not overly vocal. To be honest, when they are vocal, they're largely against any character evolution that would take him beyond Chantry Boy or Prince Charming.

Which is a shame, really, Sebastian is a character with an excellent amount of potential as a future companion but he needs to evolve to a point his supporters just won't like.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 12 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[Melca36]

LolaLei wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I want the romances to look like adults and not in their teens and early twenties.

I want the men to look like men and women to look like men no matter if they are human, elf, or dwarf.

You want your women to look like men? ... Whatever floats your boat I guess!

Thats what I get for posting without coffee.

What I mean is I want the romancable characters to look like adults and NOT look like children.

For example, my husband could not stand Merrill.   Yet he like Tallis because she looked like a woman and **not** a child

[esper]

Melca36 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I want the romances to look like adults and not in their teens and early twenties.

I want the men to look like men and women to look like men no matter if they are human, elf, or dwarf.

You want your women to look like men? ... Whatever floats your boat I guess!

Thats what I get for posting without coffee.

What I mean is I want the romancable characters to look like adults and NOT look like children.

For example, my husband could not stand Merrill.   Yet he like Tallis because she looked like a woman and **not** a child

... How dos Merrill look like a child.? I hope it isn't because she is flat chested, because I know some person with even less chest than her.

[Melca36]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He has a very vocal minority of supporters.

They're not overly vocal. To be honest, when they are vocal, they're largely against any character evolution that would take him beyond Chantry Boy or Prince Charming.

Which is a shame, really, Sebastian is a character with an excellent amount of potential as a future companion but he needs to evolve to a point his supporters just won't like.

I agree. People would like him BETTER if he evolved and didn't constantly prognosticate with "It was the Maker's Will" diatribes.

I couldn't stand him and for the most of my games, I didn't even recruit him.  I never want to see him again unless he is drunk and not wearing his andraste belt buckle. I want to see a lost and broken Sebastian who begins to question his faith.

Modifié par Melca36, 12 avril 2012 - 05:29 .

[Melca36]

esper wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I want the romances to look like adults and not in their teens and early twenties.

I want the men to look like men and women to look like men no matter if they are human, elf, or dwarf.

You want your women to look like men? ... Whatever floats your boat I guess!

Thats what I get for posting without coffee.

What I mean is I want the romancable characters to look like adults and NOT look like children.

For example, my husband could not stand Merrill.   Yet he like Tallis because she looked like a woman and **not** a child

... How dos Merrill look like a child.? I hope it isn't because she is flat chested, because I know some person with even less chest than her.

No, it wasn't the breasts. He just did NOT like the character at all.