1536 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Biowares safeist course is to make everyone romancable by anyone. It's cheap and shallow, but it works.

It's empty and shallow and makes them a sidenote rather than part of the story.

Atakuma wrote...
What games are you referring to, and how does the single variable of their sexual orientation make them less predetermined?

BobSmith provided a pretty decent list.

The NPCs are always predetermined. I was referring to the protagonist not being pre-determined. The issue of the character sexuality was only to be inclusive, as BioWare has seemed to be attempting, recently.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 02 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[Atakuma]

PinkShoes wrote...

i agree with you. I want depth with these characters. DA2 sure they all seemed fine but they were all so shallow. The romance was tbh ridiculous. Like you said it felt scheduled.

I think that had more to do with the structure of the game than the actual romances.

[Maria Caliban]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Have any examples? 

Nathan Drake and Elena Fisher from Uncharted. Raynor and Kerrigan from Starcraft.

[Dejajeva]

slashthedragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Was the writing team the same for DA:O and DA:2, if anyone knows?

It was.

Thank you.
I wonder why it feels like it's two different teams though?

I think time has a lot to do with it. I'm not one to want a five year turnaround time on DA3, but I think pushing DA2 out so fast made the team have to cut corners a little bit. Hence the less talking and more reused areas. I feel that the team realize that this is something we like, and I feel like they will put more effort into these areas. Not to downplay how much work went into DA2- I'm sure it was hard for the writers not to include things they wanted to because they didn't have the time to do it.

[Atakuma]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
What games are you referring to, and how does the single variable of their sexual orientation make them less predetermined?

BobSmith provided a pretty decent list.

The NPCs are always predetermined. I was referring to the protagonist not being pre-determined. The issue of the character sexuality was only to be inclusive, as BioWare has seemed to be attempting, recently.

Okay then I just misunderstood you.

[the_one_54321]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Raynor and Kerrigan from Starcraft.

Also played out really well, considering how generally shallow the story telling in SC is. They don't do story quite like BioWare does story, but they do their brand of story very well.

[Maria Caliban]

slashthedragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Was the writing team the same for DA:O and DA:2, if anyone knows?

It was.

Thank you.
I wonder why it feels like it's two different teams though?

Actually, Luke who did Aveline and much of the qunari plot for Act 2 is new to the DA series. It felt different because it was a different set of characters and a different story with a different hero.

Mary wrote Sten in DA:O, Varric and Merril in DA II. The characters are nothing alike so interacting with them won't feel the same.

[slashthedragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Was the writing team the same for DA:O and DA:2, if anyone knows?

It was.

Thank you.
I wonder why it feels like it's two different teams though?

Actually, Luke who did Aveline and much of the qunari plot for Act 2 is new to the DA series. It felt different because it was a different set of characters and a different story with a different hero.

Mary wrote Sten in DA:O, Varric and Merril in DA II. The characters are nothing alike so interacting with them won't feel the same.

I mean different in things like, an "issues" filled Alistar was so different from an "issues" filled Anders.  Alistar came of as charming in a shy kind of way, I never wanted to smack him or tell him to stop whining, like I did with Anders.
I guess you could say that there are people in RL who whine/etc., but I just feel like is was handled better in DA:O.  Does that make sense?  I'm having a hard time putting the thought into words ><;

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Have any examples? 

Nathan Drake and Elena Fisher from Uncharted. Raynor and Kerrigan from Starcraft.

I'd agree with those, but I still think they are LI's that are intergrated into the plot in a way that would not be possible with multiple choice.

I would totally choose Chloe over Elena.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 02 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[David Gaider]

Dejajeva wrote...
1. I think this goes without saying, as it's pretty obvious it's a pretty standard desire for most of us on here, but in general more interaction with our companions, like in DAo. Companions in DA2 were great, but I felt like it was very...scheduled. I'd like more backstory and more banter.

This you will get, I think. It's less about having more interaction (as, in terms of overall volume, DA2 companions actually had as much interaction as DAO companions) but rather how it's presented.

Receiving "quests" to inform the player that there was new dialogue seems like it had the opposite effect of what was intended-- rather than being a convenience, some people saw it as affecting their agency. They no longer felt like they had chosen to speak to the companion, but rather that the companion had chosen to speak with them... so they could only interact with that companion on their terms. So, fair enough. Most likely what we will do is go back to the old method of letting the player initiate dialogues, and keep any telegraphing of a companion's "availability" to something more subtle (like a change in animations).

Part of that is also having interactions with the companion that are completely separate from the scenes-- so, the ability to ask the follower questions and/or have smaller things that the player can choose to do like kiss a romance or joke with them, etc.

While I know the average fan would always vote for more of everything (insert meme with fan shouting "ALL OF THE DIALOGUES!" here), there is a trade off... and it would probably come at the expense of having less of a companion's interaction done via companion quests as was in DA2 (remember that DA2 had three quests per follower, in which a lot of that companion's development occurred, as opposed to DAO which had one short quest at best). So there's a middle ground where the sweet spot exists, hopefully, that we'll be playing with... but ideally, once we get around the necessary changes to presentation, it will allow us to retain the feeling of agency that some were missing while not reverting to DAO's system in entirety along with the issues it had.

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's empty and shallow and makes them a sidenote rather than part of the story. 

I don't disagree but I don't think it's practical.

[Bio Addict]

People seem to be focusing mostly on characterization and that's cool but what I found myself thinking when I read the thread title was that I'd like to be able to choose what type of fighter my companions are within the context of their class. As an example I wouldn't have wanted to turn Fenris from a warrior into a mage but I would've enjoyed the ability to make him a sword and board warrior instead of just a great sword warrior.

[Atakuma]

While I'm not against it, making everyone bisexual really was unnecessary, however I don't believe that having a hetero and homosexual character in each gender is going to automatically lead to more in depth romances. It's all depends on how much effort Bioware are to put into it

[the_one_54321]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I'd agree with those, but I still think they are LI's that are intergrated into the plot in a way that would not be possible with multiple choice.

If you choose Morigan, her romance becomes integrated with the story. Just as an example of how you can habe both.

The problem is, one, if you don't like Morrigan you might not enjoy it anyway, and two, if you choose Leliana there is almost no integration into the overreaching story.

The existence of Leliana as a romance option fixes the first problem. But then you have an amount of story that is split between two characters. It's a trade off. Singular content and/or quality vs options and variable content.

[Maria Caliban]

slashthedragon wrote...

I mean different in things like, an "issues" filled Alistar was so different from an "issues" filled Anders.  Alistar came of as charming in a shy kind of way, I never wanted to smack him or tell him to stop whining, like I did with Anders.
I guess you could say that there are people in RL who whine/etc., but I just feel like is was handled better in DA:O.  Does that make sense?  I'm having a hard time putting the thought into words ><;

David Gaider wrote Alistar in DA:O and Fenris in DA II.

Jennifer Hepler wrote Anders in DA II. In DA:O, she's best known for the broodmother introduction with Hespith. The one where Branka turns her lover over to darkspawn to be changed into a mindless abomination.

She probably finds 'issues' more interesting than you do.

[AkiKishi]

Atakuma wrote...

While I'm not against it, making everyone bisexual really was unnecessary, however I don't believe that having a hetero and homosexual character in each gender is going to automatically lead to more in depth romances. It's all depends on how much effort Bioware are to put into it

It's the easy option more bang for your buck (unfortunate choice of words maybe).

In theory if you took 6 potential LIs condensed that into 1 character it should give that character 6 times the romance potential (well it would be 3 if you had to have a gay character as well).
Also knowing the LI in advance would allow much easiler plotting of events and cutscenes.

Like anything, when you remove the choice, you can tell a tighter story, but the upside is also the downside.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 02 avril 2012 - 06:10 .

[slashthedragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

I mean different in things like, an "issues" filled Alistar was so different from an "issues" filled Anders.  Alistar came of as charming in a shy kind of way, I never wanted to smack him or tell him to stop whining, like I did with Anders.
I guess you could say that there are people in RL who whine/etc., but I just feel like is was handled better in DA:O.  Does that make sense?  I'm having a hard time putting the thought into words ><;

David Gaider wrote Alistar in DA:O and Fenris in DA II.

Jennifer Hepler wrote Anders in DA II. In DA:O, she's best known for the broodmother introduction with Hespith. The one where Branka turns her lover over to darkspawn to be changed into a mindless abomination.

She probably finds 'issues' more interesting than you do.

I'm fine with issues, but I don't want to find a character annoying, especially if s/he is on my side.  But that is just my opinion.  Some people think Anders came off as whiny and I'm sure others thought he was perfect.
Thanks for all the info about the writers!

[Maria Caliban]

The eight romances we've had in the DA series have all felt different and I like that. But that also means that they can be very hit and miss.

[Alessa]

David Gaider wrote...

Most likely what we will do is go back to the old method of letting the player initiate dialogues, and keep any telegraphing of a companion's "availability" to something more subtle (like a change in animations).

Part of that is also having interactions with the companion that are completely separate from the scenes-- so, the ability to ask the follower questions and/or have smaller things that the player can choose to do like kiss a romance or joke with them, etc.

That sounds good to me.    

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
The eight romances we've had in the DA series have all felt different and I like that. But that also means that they can be very hit and miss.

My experience-- having written many of the romances from BG2 all the way up to DA2-- is that there is no catch-all when it comes to romances. It's a very subjective thing, by it's very nature, and what one person finds unacceptable is completely appealing to another. One person finds them whiny and self-involved, and another finds that same character intriguing. Hence their optional nature.

Insofar as the DA2 romances went, my only personal issue is that the Fenris and Anders romances were a little too close in their general tone-- meaning that the same kind of person was apt to like them both (though this is by no means universal, as with most romances). I'd like to have a little more divergence in the "romance type" in the future.

[Cultist]

David Gaider wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...
1. I think this goes without saying, as it's pretty obvious it's a pretty standard desire for most of us on here, but in general more interaction with our companions, like in DAo. Companions in DA2 were great, but I felt like it was very...scheduled. I'd like more backstory and more banter.

This you will get, I think. It's less about having more interaction (as, in terms of overall volume, DA2 companions actually had as much interaction as DAO companions) but rather how it's presented.

Receiving "quests" to inform the player that there was new dialogue seems like it had the opposite effect of what was intended-- rather than being a convenience, some people saw it as affecting their agency. They no longer felt like they had chosen to speak to the companion, but rather that the companion had chosen to speak with them... so they could only interact with that companion on their terms. So, fair enough. Most likely what we will do is go back to the old method of letting the player initiate dialogues, and keep any telegraphing of a companion's "availability" to something more subtle (like a change in animations).

Part of that is also having interactions with the companion that are completely separate from the scenes-- so, the ability to ask the follower questions and/or have smaller things that the player can choose to do like kiss a romance or joke with them, etc.

While I know the average fan would always vote for more of everything (insert meme with fan shouting "ALL OF THE DIALOGUES!" here), there is a trade off... and it would probably come at the expense of having less of a companion's interaction done via companion quests as was in DA2 (remember that DA2 had three quests per follower, in which a lot of that companion's development occurred, as opposed to DAO which had one short quest at best). So there's a middle ground where the sweet spot exists, hopefully, that we'll be playing with... but ideally, once we get around the necessary changes to presentation, it will allow us to retain the feeling of agency that some were missing while not reverting to DAO's system in entirety along with the issues it had.

David, I highly suggest you to lookat  and try WeiDU Flirt Packs and Banter Packs - one of the most massive creative work on Balduer's gate 2 romances and flirt to date. the amount of work is impressing but it's totally worth it, especially flirt packs, as authors tried to stay as close to companion characters as possible. Not only they added flirts and romancing stuff but they added conflicts as well, so imitated "relationship" is not ideal and perfect. in case you already tried them, please, implement their features in upcoming DA game. It'll be shame if such efforts will be lost when they can improve the game tremendously.

Modifié par Cultist, 02 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[the_one_54321]

David Gaider wrote...
While I know the average fan would always vote for more of everything (insert meme with fan shouting "ALL OF THE DIALOGUES!" here), there is a trade off... and it would probably come at the expense of having less of a companion's interaction done via companion quests as was in DA2

David Gaider wrote...
meaning that the same kind of person was apt to like them both (though this is by no means universal, as with most romances). I'd like to have a little more divergence in the "romance type" in the future.

So your hope is that you will be able to provide greater variability and fewer dedicated story arcs? The trade-off, as you put it?

This is not a sarcastic question. I'm wanting to connect dots between these two posts.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 02 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

I'd like to see Cullen as his conflicted nature in the conflict would be fascinating and he could tip either side, wouldn't mind seeing Charade either as a tie-in to Dragon Age 2 and we hear more about Hawke / Gamlen despite being done with those characters.

[Dejajeva]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
The eight romances we've had in the DA series have all felt different and I like that. But that also means that they can be very hit and miss.

My experience-- having written many of the romances from BG2 all the way up to DA2-- is that there is no catch-all when it comes to romances. It's a very subjective thing, by it's very nature, and what one person finds unacceptable is completely appealing to another. One person finds them whiny and self-involved, and another finds that same character intriguing. Hence their optional nature.

Insofar as the DA2 romances went, my only personal issue is that the Fenris and Anders romances were a little too close in their general tone-- meaning that the same kind of person was apt to like them both (though this is by no means universal, as with most romances). I'd like to have a little more divergence in the "romance type" in the future.

If you ever venture into the world of *romance* fanfic...which I don't write and only read occasionally- I'd say more than half of the really naughty ones include both Fenris and Anders. Not necessarily at the same time, though. So I think you've hit the nail on the head. Half of my playthroughs I romance Fenris, the other half Anders- and I have a tough time deciding. It's a love-hate relationship with both of them.

[Dutchess]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
The eight romances we've had in the DA series have all felt different and I like that. But that also means that they can be very hit and miss.

My experience-- having written many of the romances from BG2 all the way up to DA2-- is that there is no catch-all when it comes to romances. It's a very subjective thing, by it's very nature, and what one person finds unacceptable is completely appealing to another. One person finds them whiny and self-involved, and another finds that same character intriguing. Hence their optional nature.

Insofar as the DA2 romances went, my only personal issue is that the Fenris and Anders romances were a little too close in their general tone-- meaning that the same kind of person was apt to like them both (though this is by no means universal, as with most romances). I'd like to have a little more divergence in the "romance type" in the future.

I really, really liked Fenris (you did an amazing job with him, I think. It seems you have written my favorite companions and romances in DAO and DA2^_^) but have never bing able to bring myself to like Anders. I have not completed the Anders romance yet, but it did not really remind me of the Fenris romance, although I understand what you mean when you say you found the tone a bit comparable.

Well, I am very glad to hear companion interaction will become more accessible again. It was rather frustrating to have to wait so long after their quest. When you say the companions had the same volume of interaction in DAO and DA2, you mean with their questlines included, I take it? Because I have the feeling I could bother Alistair with a lot more questions than I ever got to ask Fenris. 

And yes, my meme would definitely be: ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS!!