1536 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

[ModEdit - Removed quote containing ME3 spoiler  - Allan]

I've always supported the idea of some romances essentially being 'doomed'/making the player suffer.

The problem is the fans wouldn't see it as a story development but rather that "bioware betrayed them" yada yada yada.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[LolaLei]

GodWood wrote...

Deviija wrote...
ModEdit - Removed an ME3 spoiler

- Allan

I've always supported the idea of some romances essentially being 'doomed'/making the player suffer.

The problem is the fans wouldn't see it as a story development but rather that "bioware betrayed them" yada yada yada.

Like Thanes romance, that had to happen we knew he was dying. I don't mind doomed relationships in games... that being said I'll probably totally retract that statement if they finally made Cullen a love interest only to have him die or ditch the PC to become Chief Templar extraordinaire LOL... damn I bet that bloody happens as well!

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[tmp7704]

ModEdit - ME3 Spoiler removed

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[Allan Schumacher]

ModEdit - Quote Deleted due to spoiler

I think this is an important aspect because I find with the relationship stuff especially, the idea of being perceived as fair is probably much more important. I remember this being a huge issue with a lot of people in Baldur's Gate 2, and rightly so.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[tmp7704]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ModEdit - Spoiler removed.

ModEdit - Spoiler removed

Would it also surprise you if people were upset after getting told out of a blue that say, Garrus or Tali died between ME2 and ME3 and so everyone who was hoping to continue the relationship with them was out of luck, simply because the game writer felt like it? Because that's functional equivalent.

edit: not trying to say "you can't do that!" or anything like that, just surprised that you were surprised


ModEdit - Some spoilers were removed, but the gist of the discussion was kept in tact because it was general.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:10 .

[Eudaemonium]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ModEdit: Spoiler Removed

-Allan

I think this is an important aspect because I find with the relationship stuff especially, the idea of being perceived as fair is probably much more important. I remember this being a huge issue with a lot of people in Baldur's Gate 2, and rightly so.

I used a fan-mod Edwin romance in mine. He and my Neutral Evil Assassin got on great, in that secretly planning to murder each other for fun and profit way.

Which reminds me, I really need to get back to that playthrough of BG1-2:ToB

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:12 .

[Massakkolia]

tmp7704 wrote...

ModEdit - Spoiler removed

Would it also surprise you if people were upset after getting told out of a blue that say, Garrus or Tali died between ME2 and ME3 and so everyone who was hoping to continue the relationship with them was out of luck, simply because the game writer felt like it? Because that's functional equivalent.

edit: not trying to say "you can't do that!" or anything like that, just surprised that you were surprised

While I wasn't surprised by the reaction, I was a bit puzzled. Actually it always confuses me when people get angry at writers when a piece of fiction stirs their negative emotions. I totally understand being angry within the game context but many fans seem to take that anger out of that context and claim that the writers have somehow failed at their job.

Making the player feel sadness or hatred is not a failure (as long as those feelings are created within the story and not because of plotholes, lazy writing etc.) I enjoy the whole emotional trip in a Bioware game, the good and the bad. My character may not like being betrayed but I, as a player, love that. It's just good fiction.

I hope that future Dragon Age games feature a wide range of relationships that include moments of joy as well as harsh disappointments. 


ModEdit - Spoiler references were removed

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[tmp7704]

Ria wrote...

While I wasn't surprised by the reaction, I was a bit puzzled. Actually it always confuses me when people get angry at writers when a piece of fiction stirs their negative emotions. I totally understand being angry within the game context but many fans seem to take that anger out of that context and claim that the writers have somehow failed at their job.

I don't think that's always the case, but it's probably going to be the case when the developers make big claims about player's choices being influential and world-shaping, and then do a total opposite -- by dropping an unexpected development onto player's lap that undoes those choices, with *no* way to react or change anything about it, but merely expecting it'll be "dealt with". In that sense it's not out of context, as there's perceived drastical disjoint between the promise and the delivery on part of the writers. And the anger is then aimed at the actual source.



ModEdit - Spoiler removed from quote

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:14 .

[the_one_54321]

LolaLei wrote...
I think that guy likes asking lots of questions, it's the second time we've gotten into a debate in as many days lol.

Asking lots of questions isn't the same as debate...
It would be debate if I were trying to prove you wrong.

[LolaLei]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
I think that guy likes asking lots of questions, it's the second time we've gotten into a debate in as many days lol.

Asking lots of questions isn't the same as debate...
It would be debate if I were trying to prove you wrong.

Perhaps debate is the wrong word then. Not that I'm complaining, I like answering them.

I meant no offense btw, It wasn't meant to sound rude or insulting.

[Massakkolia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ria wrote...

While I wasn't surprised by the reaction, I was a bit puzzled. Actually it always confuses me when people get angry at writers when a piece of fiction stirs their negative emotions. I totally understand being angry the character within the game context but many fans seem to take that anger out of that context and claim that the writers have somehow failed at their job.

I don't think that's always the case, but it's probably going to be the case when the developers make big claims about player's choices being influential and world-shaping, and then doing a total opposite by dropping an unexpected development onto player's lap with *no* way to react or change anything about it, but merely expecting it'll be "dealt with". In that sense it's not out of context, as there's perceived drastical disjoint between the promise and the delivery on part of the writers. And the anger is then aimed at the actual source.

I hope you're still referring to the character and not the ending. In case of the ending I would agree but the character is his own character and makes decisions that sometimes might hurt Shepard. I don't think anyone acted out of character (which would have been the fault of the writer and thus justified criticism). The player can influence the world with her choices, sure, but she shouldn't be able to get everything she wants. Perhaps it's about personal preference. I want my companions to say no to me sometimes. I got really heartbroken over Aveline in DA2 and It was wonderful.


ModEdit - Spoilers removed

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:16 .

[Addai]

DA2 taught me that it doesn't matter who the LIs are if the PC is a tool.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ria wrote...

The player can influence the world with her choices, sure, but she shouldn't be able to get everything she wants. Perhaps it's about personal preference. I want my companions to say no to me sometimes. I got really heartbroken over Aveline in DA2 and It was wonderful.

[ModEdit - Spoiler removed

- Allan]

The Aveline situation is not really comparable, and I generally liked that though I really wanted to romance her.  I created a character who loved her and then settled with Anders which gave my play through a decidedly twisted dimension in that she rivaled him.  I know I'm a terrible person, but it was a lot of fun to play in that regard.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:21 .

[Massakkolia]

Village Idiot wrote...

Ria wrote...

The player can influence the world with her choices, sure, but she shouldn't be able to get everything she wants. Perhaps it's about personal preference. I want my companions to say no to me sometimes. I got really heartbroken over Aveline in DA2 and It was wonderful.

The Aveline situation is not really comparable, and I generally liked that though I really wanted to romance her.  I created a character who loved her and then settled with Anders which gave my play through a decidedly twisted dimension in that she rivaled him.  I know I'm a terrible person, but it was a lot of fun to play in that regard.

Now, I think this shows the problem of Bioware's sex centric romance writing. If the relationship is building up only to the eventual sex scene the whole romance falls a bit flat. ME1 and ME2 suffered from this syndrome a lot. So did DA:O, though to a lesser extent as Alistair romance for example had grave political implications, which carried the romance alongside with the main plot until the end. That was great and I would love to see more of plot tie-ins like that in the future with romances. DA2 tried to fight this fault with its long timeline but I think they only succeeded with Isabela, to an extent.  ME3 had some stellar romances (like Garrus) but they were so good only because they were established in previous games. That's something Bioware needs to work on: How to make a romance feel more than a fling within one game?



ModEdit - Spoilers removed

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[RonixisJK]

I think that the non-sexual romance idea could be interesting if written well and in some way that fit the character. The concern that comes to my mind is that I don't want it to come off in a way that seems to say that sex is somehow bad. I don't really think Bioware would do that, but it still came to mind.

I would certainly agree that it shouldn't be the endpoint of the relationship arc, though.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ria wrote...

ModEdit - Spoiler Removed

- Allan

I also would never argue that someone doesn't have a right to write whatever they choose, and I totally respect that narrative choice, however, I still think I can find fault with its construction.  I can critique a choice I don't agree with and I discuss an action I don't find to be effective.  If something doesn't come across cohesively, then I think it's okay to say so.  I write and when I share my work with my writer's group, I hear it all of the time.  I want to know if something isn't working for a reader.  I want to know if it's not believable or out of sync with what I initially created.  I need to know.  This is merely just my opinion but self-reflection and feedback are integral to improving my craft.  Bioware wouldn't ask us for our thoughts otherwise and we wouldn't respond if we didn't think they would listen.  

Now, I think this shows the problem of Bioware's sex centric romance writing. If the relationship is building up only to the eventual sex scene the whole romance falls a bit flat. ME1 and ME2 suffered from this syndrome a lot. So did DA:O, though to a lesser extent as Alistair romance for example had grave political implications, which carried the romance alongside with the main plot until the end. That was great and I would love to see more of plot tie-ins like that in the future with romances. DA2 tried to fight this fault with its long timeline but I think they only succeeded with Isabela, to an extent.

I mostly agree with this.  Isabela's romance was great and I also really enjoyed the Fenris romance mostly because his issue about intimacy actually established something solid I think.  Isabela's arc was done well in both romance and friendship.  The first time I had her goodbye as a friend, I teared up substantially.  I don't think cried when my Warden died.  I was bummed out, but I don't recall crying.

ME3 had some stellar romances (like Garrus) but they were so good only because they were established in previous games. That's something Bioware needs to work on: How to make a romance feel more than a fling within one game?

I didn't feel Garrus's romance in ME2 was that great, but it was incredibly well done in ME3 (second best behind Liara's romance which I think was the best of the Mass Effect trilogy) though I'm going to say that it was a bit jarring at first.  My Shepard loved him, but I really had to head canon to make it work because in ME2 it felt like a friends with benefit thing.  It's why I initially had my Shepard choose it.  



- ModEdit - Spoilers removed

Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:26 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Honestly I don't really have any *serious* complaints about companions in any of the Dragon Age games (I'm going to stay away from Mass Effect...) as I find they were all done exceptionally well for the most part. Really the only complaint I have is a superficial one and I apologize to David in advance because I know it's a superficial complaint that irks him; namely my complaint is about Aveline.

I found her to be a companion that had the most depth, compassion, strength, and intelligence then any of the other characters with a story that made her perfect for Hawke (i.e. they both suffer loss at the same time, they're both bound together by difficult circumstances in a new life, they become almost like family and they find the weight of an entire city upon their shoulders) and, yet, despite offering some flirt dialogue the only thing you get to do is hook her up with someone else. Easily the only part of the game that actually pissed me off and not in an "Wow, this is great story telling" (sorry David/Luke) but more in a "what the hell was the point of that?"

I just feel that if you're going to pour so much into a character that you can't help but fall for them don't slam the door in the PC's face and not really provide a viable explanation for it other then, "Well, not everyone should be romancible. That's real life." I'm not playing a game for real life; yes, I want an engaging experience but I don't want to feel powerless when it comes to affection (i.e. Highschool all over again...)

If Aveline had been very old (Wynne) or *very* young (Wild Flower) then I could understand it. But there was nothing, *nothing* that should have prevented you from being given the option. As I said the PC could even flirt with her. Aveline even asks about "Their ever being an *us*," in an off hand way and you can only laugh it off or be stoic about it. As I've said, the complaint is very superficial, but, I just feel like if you going to lock off companions from being romanced then do so for reasons other then at stab at reflecting "life lessons."

Modifié par glenboy24, 13 avril 2012 - 01:45 .

[Dejajeva]

More DA less ME because I am so lost when you guys talk about that stuff. oO

Would it have felt better if after hitting on Aveline she realized it and turned you down? Then it could have gotten hella awkward like in real life? Or did it bug you that you could flirt with her and she didn't even seem to notice?

[Massakkolia]

I thought Aveline was written brilliantly and big part of that was the fact you could flirt with her. I admit I would have been terribly disappointed if my character couldn't have at least tried to express her feelings to Aveline in some manner. The game offered me a chance to roleplay as someone who's in love with her and that was enough for me. In fact it offered me to experience a very impactful bittersweet story arc for my Hawke.

Would I be against a fully developed Aveline romance? No. But if every age appropriate character was available for PC I think it would get very boring very quickly. Personally, I hope Bioware experiments more with relationships like the one with Aveline.


ModEdit - Spoiler removed

Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:26 .

[Dejajeva]

Alright but if they give me Cullen as a companion and don't make him romanceable....I just...don't...

[Allan Schumacher]

tmp7704 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

edit: Spoiler removed

Would it also surprise you if people were upset after getting told out of a blue that say, Garrus or Tali died between ME2 and ME3 and so everyone who was hoping to continue the relationship with them was out of luck, simply because the game writer felt like it? Because that's functional equivalent.

edit: not trying to say "you can't do that!" or anything like that, just surprised that you were surprised

This is probably a good point to remind our audience that I'm not the biggest fans of romances and hence likely do not place as much investment into them HAHA.

I would actually be okay with other romances being cut off too (whether through death or otherwise), but I understand that I'm likely unique in that regard.  In fact I probably shouldn't get into writing because I'd probably do awful, awful things (in the eyes of many fans) to romance interests just for my own amusement <.<.  Although not so much to be overtly mean, but because I think that when a game can illicit an emotional response it can be a powerful thing.  I probably would have strongly suggested Tali and Garrus end up sacrificing themselves in some capacity simply because those characters have such a sense of attachment by a lot of the fanbase.  Though I imagine the fan response would be akin to a lynch mob... :innocent:

I guess what I find interesting is that the people responded to Jacob moving on much in the same way that they would had it happened in real life.  I see it more as a good thing though, and hope the writers are at least somewhat flattered that people were invested enough that they could respond that way.  No one really cares what happens to the hated NPC.

My .02



EDIT: Spoilers removed.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

Ria wrote...

I admit I would have been terribly disappointed if my character couldn't have at least tried to express her feelings to Aveline in some manner. The game offered me a chance to roleplay as someone who's in love with her and that was enough for me. In fact it offered me to experience a very impactful bittersweet story arc for my Hawke.

That's how I feel about the Samara romance.

But if every age appropriate character was available for PC I think it would get very boring very quickly.

I'm willing to test how many romances I can experience in one game before it gets boring.

For science.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Ria wrote...

I hope you're still referring to the character and not the ending. In case of the ending I would agree but characters make their own decisions that sometimes might hurt Shepard. I don't think he acted out of character (which would have been the fault of the writer and thus justified criticism). The player can influence the world with her choices, sure, but she shouldn't be able to get everything she wants. Perhaps it's about personal preference. I want my companions to say no to me sometimes. I got really heartbroken over Aveline in DA2 and It was wonderful.

Well put.  I like player agency and reactivity, but I think a game world, and its characters, are more interesting when they seem to make decisions on their own and do not explicitly react to me.  I think it's one thing I particularly liked about how party members in DA2 all kind of had their own places to hang out while in Kirkwall, as well as how the crew seemed to move around in ME3 (on the Citadel and on the Normandy).  It's fun to see Joker and Garrus razzing each other.

As you alluded to earlier, I think getting mad at characters in game is perfectly fine, as long as it's appropriately within context.  I'm not upset at a writer/designer because a character doesn't necessarily bend to my whim, or for putting me in a precarious position where there's no easy way out, no matter how "frustrated" I may feel.  Removing myself from the game, that I'm feeling that emotion is really a compliment.


Cheers!

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

If Liara dumped me in ME 3, I'd have cried and hated on BioWare. Character agency be damned.

[RogueWriter3201]

Dejajeva wrote...

More DA less ME because I am so lost when you guys talk about that stuff. oO

Would it have felt better if after hitting on Aveline she realized it and turned you down? Then it could have gotten hella awkward like in real life? Or did it bug you that you could flirt with her and she didn't even seem to notice?

I wanted her to be romancible. Period, and I (just my opinion) felt like it was a disservice to the PC that she wasn't due to just how amazing a character she was. However, if they had to go down that route as they did with blocking her off what I felt was that they shouldn't have given you the option to flirt at all, and provide a viable explanation for it, i.e. the loss of her husband left her emotionally closed off, i.e. she never wanted to endure that kind of sacrifice again. No real reason is ever given but that doesn't stop her from making you help her get some then get married as if you were just another "girlfriend" to turn to. Again, so very Highschool.