1536 réponses à ce sujet

[RogueWriter3201]

Ria wrote...

I thought Aveline was written brilliantly and big part of that was the fact you could flirt with her. I admit I would have been terribly disappointed if my character couldn't have at least tried to express her feelings to Aveline in some manner. The game offered me a chance to roleplay as someone who's in love with her and that was enough for me. In fact it offered me to experience a very impactful bittersweet story arc for my Hawke.

Would I be against a fully developed Aveline romance? No. But if every age appropriate character was available for PC I think it would get very boring very quickly. Personally, I hope Bioware experiments more with relationships like the one with Aveline.


*snip*

While I appreciate that you found a poignant story for your Hawke, that doesn't mean others likewise would. Respectfully, I even disagree with your assessment that having all companion be open to Romance (with exceptions made for age -too young too old- ) would be boring. What would be boring would be if it was too easy to win said affection, i.e. Origins. You could be completely against everything most of the characters stood for yet give them shiney baubles and they *loved* you.

I feel like every companion should be open but don't make it easy, and have the level of commitment required differ between companions for various reasons, perhaps their background, beliefs, class and so forth. With Aveline it would have been perfect if the loss of Wesley had left her emotionally closed off and the challange of a romance with her would have been pulling her out of that self impossed romantic exile and showing her that she could still love and that love in and of itself was worth the risk of loss.

Nothing else about the character would have been required to be changed and, for those who chose not to romance her, there could still be the option to help her find love elsewhere so she wouldn't be alone, i.e. Donnic. I just feel that robbing the PC of choice in regards to romances (again with some understandable exceptions) is a huge failing. Then again, that's just my opinion and, as I've mentioned before, can be considered a superficial complaint.
  

[TJX2045]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

<snip>

I also find it refreshing in that it's unique; most relationships in RPGs tend to have a clearly defined "win condition" of being in the relationship, often portrayed by a scene depicting an intimate encounter.

Cheers!

That is really interesting.  Like someone said earlier, people really had a strong connection to Samara and she even had a strong connection to Shepard, even though they couldn't consumate their romance because of her vows.

I think it is also interesting for some characters who have a lot of emotional baggage.  I don't want someone who is completely perfect but I don't want someone who is completely twisted either, which is one reason why the idea of romancing Fenris always made me cringe because IMO he was so whiny and using every mage as his scapegoat for his master.  It was a really bad and painful memory, but him going after everyone who wasn't a Maleficarum, to me, was just heartless.

Now, without going into spoilers, the Anders romance was really interesting.  I enjoyed his character, BUT when I got to the climax of the game...HOLY CRAP was I pissed off.  I was surprised that a character could really make me feel so many emotions in such a short period of time.  I didn't know what to think, how to feel.  I felt so bad that I ultimately couldn't end the romance when the event happened.

I know when I first saw it happen I was livid asking "WHY."  Then I realized that all of the Love Interests in DA2 all have their baggage...each and every one of them in extremes.  It's just that when you get really attached to one of them and that really bad thing happens, it challenges you, sort of similar to a real life romance.  There will be challenges, but you fight to keep the romance.

All I know is that was the first time an in game romance made me go .  Though I will say I wouldn't mind having more romance options that aren't as dark as some of them in DA2.  LOL.


ModEdit - SPoiler removed

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[Allan Schumacher]

EDIT - Spoiler removed

That's fair feedback.  Perhaps people were more upset that they couldn't respond appropriately, and would have felt better about the situation if they could have responded better in game.

Or, maybe we just need to understand why people enjoy the romance options in game and understand that the setting is still fantasy. That doesn't mean being excessively fan servicey and allowing everyone to be romancable, but recognizing that people have different expectations in video games than they do from reality.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[berelinde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's fair feedback.  Perhaps people were more upset that they couldn't respond appropriately, and would have felt better about the situation if they could have responded better in game.

That's a problem inherent in the dialogue system. Companions will behave predictably, but the PC has a fixed script and (understandably) limited response options, which occasionally omit the most obvious ones.

When Fenris walks out on the PC, s/he never really gets a chance to make a scene. Hurt and rage would be appropriate here. Instead, Fenris just leaves and they don't talk about it for *three years*, or ever, if the PC moves on. There are other examples and non-romance examples, but that illustrates the point well enough. I was looking for the "you selfish bastard" option myself, though I'd have settled for the chance to slap his cheek.

Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive are well and good, but there are times when a "tone icon" alone isn't enough.


ModEdit - Spoiler removed from quote

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:36 .

[Rawgrim]

As long as a whole country isn`t bisexual again, I am happy.

[Massakkolia]

glenboy24 wrote...

While I appreciate that you found a poignant story for your Hawke, that doesn't mean others likewise would. Respectfully, I even disagree with your assessment that having all companion be open to Romance (with exceptions made for age -too young too old- ) would be boring. What would be boring would be if it was too easy to win said affection, i.e. Origins. You could be completely against everything most of the characters stood for yet give them shiney baubles and they *loved* you.

I feel like every companion should be open but don't make it easy, and have the level of commitment required differ between companions for various reasons, perhaps their background, beliefs, class and so forth. With Aveline it would have been perfect if the loss of Wesley had left her emotionally closed off and the challange of a romance with her would have been pulling her out of that self impossed romantic exile and showing her that she could still love and that love in and of itself was worth the risk of loss.

I know there are people who would have preferred to have their happily ever after with Aveline but I doubt I'm the only one who also enjoys the option of a heartbreaking one-sided romance. That's what Aveline was to me and to many others I hope. If every companion is willing to get romantically involved with the main character it would make the characters too superficial. It would compromise their own character development.

For example, in Aveline's case I thought the depth came from her solitary fight with her sorrow for Wesley and how she overcame it by focusing on her career and eventually even finding new love (that was not Hawke but a fresh new beginning to her). I think other good example would be Sten. You could build a respectful and profound friendship with him that felt (at least to me) very rewarding. Had there been obvious romantic content, it might have sabotaged his character too severely.

I suppose what I'm saying that I want a wide variety of relationships in a Dragon Age game. Not all should follow the flirt-kiss-sex-love route, nor should all have even that option. This gives more space to the writers to put depth into the characters without necessarily destroying the player agency.

As long as the game lets my character express her feelings in numerous ways, I'm happy. There's room for improvement there, definitely.


ModEdit - Spoilers removed

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[the_one_54321]

berelinde wrote...
but the PC has a fixed script and (understandably) limited response options, which occasionally omit the most obvious ones.

Actually, no. Seriously, just get rid of voice acting for the PC and these kinds of problems can disappear much easier.

[Dessalines]

Ria wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

While I appreciate that you found a poignant story for your Hawke, that doesn't mean others likewise would. Respectfully, I even disagree with your assessment that having all companion be open to Romance (with exceptions made for age -too young too old- ) would be boring. What would be boring would be if it was too easy to win said affection, i.e. Origins. You could be completely against everything most of the characters stood for yet give them shiney baubles and they *loved* you.

I feel like every companion should be open but don't make it easy, and have the level of commitment required differ between companions for various reasons, perhaps their background, beliefs, class and so forth. With Aveline it would have been perfect if the loss of Wesley had left her emotionally closed off and the challange of a romance with her would have been pulling her out of that self impossed romantic exile and showing her that she could still love and that love in and of itself was worth the risk of loss.

I know there are people who would have preferred to have their happily ever after with Aveline but I doubt I'm the only one who also enjoys the option of a heartbreaking one-sided romance. That's what Aveline was to me and to many others I hope. If every companion is willing to get romantically involved with the main character it would make the characters too superficial. It would compromise their own character development.

For example, in Aveline's case I thought the depth came from her solitary fight with her sorrow for Wesley and how she overcame it by focusing on her career and eventually even finding new love (that was not Hawke but a fresh new beginning to her). I think other good example would be Sten. You could build a respectful and profound friendship with him that felt (at least to me) very rewarding. Had there been obvious romantic content, it might have sabotaged his character too severely.

I suppose what I'm saying that I want a wide variety of relationships in a Dragon Age game. Not all should follow the flirt-kiss-sex-love route, nor should all have even that option. This gives more space to the writers to put depth into the characters without necessarily destroying the player agency.

As long as the game lets my character express her feelings in numerous ways, I'm happy. There's room for improvement there, definitely.

I agree with the more variety of relationships, and even romantic relationships should not be base on the same pattern.either.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Ria wrote...

glenboy24 wrote...

While I appreciate that you found a poignant story for your Hawke, that doesn't mean others likewise would. Respectfully, I even disagree with your assessment that having all companion be open to Romance (with exceptions made for age -too young too old- ) would be boring. What would be boring would be if it was too easy to win said affection, i.e. Origins. You could be completely against everything most of the characters stood for yet give them shiney baubles and they *loved* you.

I feel like every companion should be open but don't make it easy, and have the level of commitment required differ between companions for various reasons, perhaps their background, beliefs, class and so forth. With Aveline it would have been perfect if the loss of Wesley had left her emotionally closed off and the challange of a romance with her would have been pulling her out of that self impossed romantic exile and showing her that she could still love and that love in and of itself was worth the risk of loss.

I know there are people who would have preferred to have their happily ever after with Aveline but I doubt I'm the only one who also enjoys the option of a heartbreaking one-sided romance. That's what Aveline was to me and to many others I hope. If every companion is willing to get romantically involved with the main character it would make the characters too superficial. It would compromise their own character development.

For example, in Aveline's case I thought the depth came from her solitary fight with her sorrow for Wesley and how she overcame it by focusing on her career and eventually even finding new love (that was not Hawke but a fresh new beginning to her). I think other good example would be Sten. You could build a respectful and profound friendship with him that felt (at least to me) very rewarding. Had there been obvious romantic content, it might have sabotaged his character too severely.

I suppose what I'm saying that I want a wide variety of relationships in a Dragon Age game. Not all should follow the flirt-kiss-sex-love route, nor should all have even that option. This gives more space to the writers to put depth into the characters without necessarily destroying the player agency.

As long as the game lets my character express her feelings in numerous ways, I'm happy. There's room for improvement there, definitely.

Well, I certainly disagree with that and, as you pointed out for your own argument, I'm sure others share my viewpoints as well. I think this only proves that David and the other writers have a bit of a challange ahead of them with the continued evolution and development of characters and romances in the series in that some middle ground might be attempted, i.e. having characters that aren't romancible yet having there be valid reasons for it other then the (with respect) somewhat sub-par reasonings you gave for Aveline; though I do agree with your assessment for Sten.

Simply put, Aveline was the perfect kind of character for a Romance, more so, perhaps, then any other character in the game including those with far more tragic/meloncholy development like Fenris or Merrill; however, she was kept outside of the Romance tree and, for me, that was one of the things which kept me from truly enjoying and feeling immersed in DA2, though certainly not a critical one.

The problem here is that my view is no more valid then your view and vice-versa. So, it begs the question, how can both concerns be avoided in the future without compremising characters or making them too black and white/cut and dry.   

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:38 .

[Shared]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Shared wrote...

Well in the ME universe i really liked the romances since it went over several games. You could see the LI grow etc etc. But they should/could have done alot more abot it. Make the interaction mean more. In DA2 i didnt find any of the romances verry good, maybe except Isabella, since you actually have to let her run off/loose her, but she changes and comes back and does something she normally wouldnt (and in my canon she did it for love! nothing else ). In da:o the fem warden/allistar romance when you are human noble i really liked. Because it was "complete", and you had to make some pretty damning sacrifices to make it work.

Isabella is my favourite romance in DA2 as well

But for my taste they should do alot more out of the romances. With more twists and turns, maybe even make you LI become a liability at some point. Im not entierly sure exactly what i would wan't. But i would like it to make a significant impact on your personal story/development in the game.

I'll leave this for David and Co. to decide what's best for future title, but as a fan one concern I have is that unless you make the romance a key theme for the story, spending too much time in it may take away from other elements of the story that might be more important. 

I'm of the opinion that the romances should still be optional, just because I know not everyone is interested in them.  Though I agree... I think it'd be interesting to have a romance where ultimately the player character has just been used.  Kind of like Mal's "wife" from Firefly haha.

Well it dosnt need to impact the main story per se, maybe make a twist to it, giving you an additional choice along the way, or maybe even remove a choice. Meaning you would still get the same story, only you get (i would offc preffer an additional choice) maybe a different path to choose from, or a path is closed to you that would otherwise be open. But for my sake it could eaven be something as "takcy" as a special quest/area/story where perhaps the only chars you can take is yourself (save ur love), or yourself and LI (she gets you to do something, maybe something you dont want/like even) something to really test how far you would go for it. The reason i mention this is because my absolute favourite ME moment is LOS if you romance liara. The talking scene on illum is imo some of the best writing ive ever seen in a game. Mix some of that with a harder/more LI based story.

As a sidenote, i do not think i would like bioware games as much if there werent LI's. Otherwise it would just be some grim thing, and your just a soldier "running and gunning" withouth any wants except some noble goal or protecting your friends etc. They add to it.

[Shared]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's fair feedback.  Perhaps people were more upset that they couldn't respond appropriately, and would have felt better about the situation if they could have responded better in game.

Or, maybe we just need to understand why people enjoy the romance options in game and understand that the setting is still fantasy. That doesn't mean being excessively fan servicey and allowing everyone to be romancable, but recognizing that people have different expectations in video games than they do from reality.

I actually think your missing the point right there in your last sentance. What you do with your games (when your at your best) is to make people feel, and react as they would in the real world. When the choice to react on an emotion as you would have in the real world does not exsist, you deny emotional relif.

Say someone cheated on you IRL, and they where clear this is who they wanted, not you (beeing an **** bastard in other words, as he didnt "break it off first). What would your reaction be? If theres criticism to be given regarding this its that you didnt ask that question to yourselves. Because if you did you would have included slap/punch, and/or angry rant and/or crying/sadness.

A similar situation to this happens in DA2, with sister petrice, It annoyed me to no end i couldnt simply kill her with extreeme prejudice, after she used me and wanted me dead to show how "bad" the qnari are. Again, you forgot to ask the question how would someone react in the real world (given your involved enough to recognize your basically in the middle ages)?

So my 2 cents regarding theese choices, conversations stories is this: "Ask what would be the most likely responses to this if the situation happened IRL?" Even if its set in fantasy or sci fi, the situations there could just as well have happened IRL (just in a different setting). Then you can toss in some RP options at writers discresion. But if you want to "play" with peoples emotions as you obviously do (i imagine you are aware of this). You should always at least give the option for "proper" release of theese emotions.


ModEdit - Spoiler removed from quote

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Dejajeva]

I would kill Petrice so dead. I was hella pissed I wasn't the one who arrowed her in the forehead. I only would have done it like six years earlier.

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

[LolaLei]

Dejajeva wrote...

I would kill Petrice so dead. I was hella pissed I wasn't the one who arrowed her in the forehead. I only would have done it like six years earlier.

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

Omg heads would roll! I would literally kill the pair of them, then run off with Cullen! Bioware, don't be getting any smart ideas! LOL.

... Seriously.

Modifié par LolaLei, 13 avril 2012 - 11:45 .

[Muirin]

Begemotka wrote...
That aside,I like the conflicted,dark knight.I like giving a chance of redemption through living, doing the right thing.And it is kind of...out-of-the blue.The appeal of the near-forbidden.Enemies to friends and more....In a similar vein,for those who are familiar with the Dragonlance Chronicles,think Raistlin or even Tanis.

Ah Raistlin! Oh yes. Oh. Yes. 

[LolaLei]

Dejajeva wrote...

I would kill Petrice so dead. I was hella pissed I wasn't the one who arrowed her in the forehead. I only would have done it like six years earlier.

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

Blowing up the Chantry was the best bit!

[Dejajeva]

LolaLei wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

I would kill Petrice so dead. I was hella pissed I wasn't the one who arrowed her in the forehead. I only would have done it like six years earlier.

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

Blowing up the Chantry was the best bit!

Secretly, on my favorite playthrough- I would have loved to have been able to high-fived Anders then, I wasn't even mad, I was just like "Why didn't I think of that?". But Bioware wouldn't let me be happy about it, or encouraging, no, I had to be disappointed in him. lol.

[Massakkolia]

Dejajeva wrote...

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

Heh, I love this idea. A good old betrayal at its finest. It would be even better if player's actions could influence the chosen partner to cheat. But yes, I don't think Bioware has the guts to try that after Jacob. Unfortunately the fear of the fangirls is grave indeed.

I dare you, Bioware, destroy our feeble hearts!

[Dejajeva]

Ria wrote...
I dare you, Bioware, destroy our feeble hearts!

Let's hope David Gaider didn't hear you say that.

[LolaLei]

Dejajeva wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

I would kill Petrice so dead. I was hella pissed I wasn't the one who arrowed her in the forehead. I only would have done it like six years earlier.

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

Blowing up the Chantry was the best bit!

Secretly, on my favorite playthrough- I would have loved to have been able to high-fived Anders then, I wasn't even mad, I was just like "Why didn't I think of that?". But Bioware wouldn't let me be happy about it, or encouraging, no, I had to be disappointed in him. lol.

LOL! My reaction was: "Wait... so Justice is still inside you?... Arse! I was hoping you'd finally got rid of him and would return to being the happy-go-lucky cheeky chappy from DA: Awakening!"

[LolaLei]

Ria wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

I think, by the way, that "cheating" partners would be great for DA. Imagine if Alistair was found in a tent with Leiliana and you had to deal with them now but had to keep them around regardless of your personal feelings for the greater good. Do you forgive them? Take them back? Slit their throats while they sleep? I would fear the fangirls though. DA LI's are wonderful, loving, and chivalrous and perfect. Until they blow a chantry up, anyway. Well nevermind. They have enough angst as it is without involving 90210 dramatics to it.

Heh, I love this idea. A good old betrayal at its finest. It would be even better if player's actions could influence the chosen partner to cheat. But yes, I don't think Bioware has the guts to try that after Jacob. Unfortunately the fear of the fangirls is grave indeed.

I dare you, Bioware, destroy our feeble hearts!

If the Warden was behaving like a total **** then I guess she'd deserve it. But I'd be bloody pissed off if the little **** cheated on my Warden for no reason at all. I'd murder the sod!

[LolaLei]

Dejajeva wrote...

Ria wrote...
I dare you, Bioware, destroy our feeble hearts!

Let's hope David Gaider didn't hear you say that.

LOL Ria shhh! Don't bloody encourage them, David gets a kick out of breaking our hearts!

[Momiji.mii]

If possible, I would wish that people would keep ME3 spoilers to the ME3 spoiler forum. My sister was reading through this thread and now a romance is spoiled for her. I've also noticed that people were discussing the ending of ME3 here. Just because someone reads through this DAII-related forum, it doesn't automatically mean that they've played ME3 yet.

Also, when devs quote spoilers or include them in their answers, the possibility of people being spoiled by mistake grows even larger, since many lurkers check out the dev posts even if they don't read through the other topics.

I hope this isn't an unreasonable request.


ModEdit - Your request is decidedly reasonable!  I removed the reference you made in your post as well just to limit the spoiler hints to others that read this.  My sincerest apologies.

- Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:41 .

[slashthedragon]

LolaLei wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

Ria wrote...
I dare you, Bioware, destroy our feeble hearts!

Let's hope David Gaider didn't hear you say that.

LOL Ria shhh! Don't bloody encourage them, David gets a kick out of breaking our hearts!

...why???   Hearts are broken enough in RL...

[Dejajeva]

Momiji.mii wrote...

If possible, I would wish that people would keep ME3 spoilers to the ME3 spoiler forum. My sister was reading through this thread and now a romance is spoiled for her. I've also noticed that people were discussing the ending of ME3 here. Just because someone reads through this DAII-related forum, it doesn't automatically mean that they've played ME3 yet.

Also, when devs quote spoilers or include them in their answers, the possibility of people being spoiled by mistake grows even larger, since many lurkers check out the dev posts even if they don't read through the other topics.

I hope this isn't an unreasonable request.

Sorry. I think we should just do our best to keep anything ME related out of this forum, and especially this thread because I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But we're really sorry and tell your sister we'll do a better job of curbing all spoilers here.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 avril 2012 - 06:41 .