1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Dakota Strider]

Some will consider this to be controversial, but that is not my intention.  First, my suggestion:

At character creation, have a button to click, if you want your character to have same sex flirts/romance. 

pros:  Everyone can have the kind of game they want.  If a player wants to have a party that includes members of the same gender, he/she need not worry about saying the wrong thing to them, and upsetting them, if they do not share the same sexual preference.  They can just be friends/companions, without any sexual undertones.  And finally, it would be more realistic (see below for rationale). 

cons:  I have not been able to think of any, but I am sure others will have them.

My rationale for this, besides what I mentioned above, is that in DA2, if you count all the companions that you can have in your party (not counting DLC's) half of them (4 of 8) would be considered gay.  If you discount your siblings, it is 2/3's.  Discount the two that do not have romantic interest in the Hero, regardless of gender (Varric and Aveline) and its 100%.
I have always heard that about 10% of the population could be considered gay.  For the purpose of this post, I thought I better have a source, before I made such an assumption, so here is information from what would have to be considered a pro-gay site:  http://gaylife.about.../population.htm
A study there shows only 3.8% of the US population considers themselves gay.  And the article sites estimates generally range between 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

So, I bring this to attention (which I am sure has raised conflicts in the past, that I am not trying to restart) to point out, that in the choices of actual roleplay in DA2, the game was designed for a very small minority of the target audience.  I realize that this was probably done out of laziness, to make it easier to keep a lower number of companions, and just make them bi so that anyone would be happy with them as a LI. 

If Bioware chooses to do this with the companions again, making them almost all able to alternate between male and female romances, then I hope they use the above suggestion.  I cannot believe it is that hard to flag some conversations not to happen, or to happen, based on a player preference choice, the player makes at the beginning of the game. 

I do not believe this suggestion is intolerant.  This solution allows the game to be made in a way that should please everyone, with minimul problems.  I recall not so many years past when gays complained about their being NO (0%) choices for gay companions.  Now Bioware has turned it around, so that straight gamers cannot play without being hit on by members of the same sex.  And if straight people are expected to be tolerant of gay peoples' preferences, it should not be too much to ask that the same courtesy is extended in something so simple as a game, when the fix is so easy to make that should satisfy most reasonable people.

[berelinde]

Dakota Strider wrote...
snip

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/306/index/11214020]Your suggestion has been addressed.[/url]

[Dakota Strider]

berelinde wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...
snip

http://social.biowar.../index/11214020] Your suggestion has been addressed.[/url]

Either that link you gave is broken, or the content there no longer exists.  Or...you are giving a sarcastic answer, suggesting that the issue has not been addressed? 

I would appreciate reading what Bioware has decided to do in regards to this subject.  I have been away from the forums for a while, and just recently started to read and contribute, since after Bioware's last two efforts I have played (DA2 and ME3) I thought that fans need to do more to be heard, about the direction of their gameplay, in general (not specifically this item, but Headline on the thread, got me thinking).

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 15 avril 2012 - 07:05 .

[Dakota Strider]

Ok, the link worked, after I used it from your quote...wierd. I will not go into my opinion of the "final word" in that thread, so as not to hijack this thread.

[upsettingshorts]

Your conclusion is fundamentally flawed.

It makes the assumption that a representative amount of gay people play BioWare games, when they could be disproportionately inclined to play them due to their inclusion of S/S relationships.
It makes the assumption that only gay people are interested in the gay romances.

BioWares own metrics have proven that a significant portion of the playerbase takes part in S/S romances.

New conclusion: Grow up and learn to live with the fact gay people exist, and take being hit on by a dude in stride, it's not a big deal.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 avril 2012 - 07:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

Nurot wrote...

It is nice that you seem to have me all figured out. And you haven't even met me. I bow down to your greatness.

Since the point I was making seems to have passed without incident cleanly over your head, I'd say I'm on the right track.

[Pzykozis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
New conclusion: Grow up and learn to live with the fact S/S people exist, and take being hit on by a dude in stride, it's not a big deal.

Would be nice if Anders didn't hate you for being straight though. Such an odd placement of rivalry points that was.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pzykozis wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
New conclusion: Grow up and learn to live with the fact S/S people exist, and take being hit on by a dude in stride, it's not a big deal.

Would be nice if Anders didn't hate you for being straight though. Such an odd placement of rivalry points that was.

I'll agree that the rivalry points maybe shouldn't have been there, but Anders wasn't hating Hawke for being straight.  He was disappointed at being shot down and had a knee-jerk reaction to it.  No one really likes to be turned down, and Anders has a more volitile personality than most.

[upsettingshorts]

Pzykozis wrote...

Would be nice if Anders didn't hate you for being straight though. Such an odd placement of rivalry points that was.

Now that I feel is a separate issue.

I don't think romance responses - positive or negative - ought to have had an effect on Friend/Rivalry.  Unless it was due to their Key Issue.

So if Anders says, "Hey bro, you're pretty hot.  Let's hook up."

And you say:  "Let's keep it professional."  Nothing happens, Anders himself is displeased but that's fine, he's allowed to be disappointed.
But if you said:  "No way in hell would I ever date a mage."  He gets upset and hits you with +20 Rivalry because his whole thing is mages and mage rights.

+20 Rivalry isn't that big of a deal, it's easy to get that back especially from Anders who has a lot of opportunities to gain Friend/Rival, however the fact that it came so early in the story before players could learn how much 20 points was worth could have prejudiced their opinions.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 avril 2012 - 08:08 .

[Pasquale1234]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
New conclusion: Grow up and learn to live with the fact S/S people exist, and take being hit on by a dude in stride, it's not a big deal.

Would be nice if Anders didn't hate you for being straight though. Such an odd placement of rivalry points that was.

I'll agree that the rivalry points maybe shouldn't have been there, but Anders wasn't hating Hawke for being straight.  He was disappointed at being shot down and had a knee-jerk reaction to it.  No one really likes to be turned down, and Anders has a more volitile personality than most.

Right.  Especially since FemHawke got the same reaction.

[Dakota Strider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Your conclusion is fundamentally flawed.

It makes the assumption that a representative amount of gay people play BioWare games, when they could be disproportionately inclined to play them due to their inclusion of S/S relationships.
It makes the assumption that only gay people are interested in the gay romances.

Let me try to explain this in another way.

Early Bioware games (BG and NwN series) could be said to be "pro-straight", since the only relationships available, were hetero (that I recall.)   That did not make them anti-gay.  There was not gay-bashing, or anything of that nature.  They could be said to be "gay-neutral" in that regard.    My point is, that you can be Pro-something, and not be Anti-something else.

DAO is the first game I recall playing that could be considered "pro-gay", as it had material to include that part of the population with similar ingame relationships.  It was at the same time "pro straight", in my opinion.  This is because straight players were not forced into situations that they normally would not allow themselves to be in.  And if I recall correctly, it was not too hard to avoid romantic situations with either gender, as the flirts were generally initiated by the warden, not the npc.  NPC's may have dropped subtle hints, but it was nothing blatant like "I think you are hot, lets become partners."

DA2 was different.  And perhaps the blame was bad writing, or not enough time to incorporate everything that they wanted to.  Relationships were rushed...and just silly to some respects.  Players were forced into situations that would not have happened if proper choices and role play was given the chance.  While "my" Hawke was willing to be friends, and more importantly, trusted adventuring companions, there is no way that Anders or Fenris would have ever made the mistake of thinking that "my" Hawke was romantically interested them, at least not enough to create a big enough scene to lose 20 rivalry points.

And the same could be said of the "straight" relationships, from what I could tell.  Very rushed, compared to Origins, or previous Bioware games I have played.  Also, the choices of who we had to choose from....the naive, insecure bloodmage, or the fun, but filthy walking advertisement for std's.  I liked both Merril and Isabella, but they were not first choices for who "my" Hawke wanted to spend time with.  My first Hawke had a crush on Aveline, but the writers were bound and determined that she would be oblivious to that.  

BioWares own metrics have proven that a significant portion of the playerbase takes part in S/S romances.

Perhaps they should go out and advertise that they are the pro-gay, anti-straight company, and that way they will attract more that want s/s?  And that way, people that are not looking for that, will not mistakenly purchase their games, expecting something different? It would be more honest.   We both know why they will not do that, because no matter how many sales they may gain from those that want to play s/s relationships in a game, they will lose far more from those that do not want to.

New conclusion: Grow up and learn to live with the fact gay people exist, and take being hit on by a dude in stride, it's not a big deal.

With great resolve, I am not going to answer your snarky remark, in the same tone.  Instead, just going to add that it shows very little tolerance, from those that claim to seek tolerance, to allow a feature in a GAME that would allow all players to choose the type of experience they want.  We can add a button that will allow players to opt out of straight romance dialogues as well the button to opt out of s/s.    The only reason I could think of people trying to fight this simple little option, is that they are not happy with getting what they want, but they want to force everyone else to have it too.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 15 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I'd like to just comment on a few things -

Dakota Strider wrote...

Perhaps they should go out and advertise that they are the pro-gay, anti-straight company, and that way they will attract more that want s/s?  And that way, people that are not looking for that, will not mistakenly purchase their games, expecting something different? It would be more honest.   We both know why they will not do that, because no matter how many sales they may gain from those that want to play s/s relationships in a game, they will lose far more from those that do not want to.

I don't know where you drew the conclusion that Bioware is anti-straight. I would consider them pro-player - meaning that they try their best to recognize their vast and wide player audience, and the many peoples within. Different age groups, different genders, different ehtnicities and sexual identities. They seem to be working toward making games that many people, across that spectrum, can enjoy. I don't see any evidence of anti-anybody. 

 

 
We can add a button that will allow players to opt out of straight romance dialogues as well the button to opt out of s/s.  The only reason I could think of people trying to fight this simple little option, is that they are not happy with getting what they want, but they want to force everyone else to have it too.

I'll speak for myself here with regard to a button or toggle for sexuality. I don't want to have to decide how to roleplay all aspects of my character at the character creation screen - because at that point, I have not seen the environment of the game, that piece of the world. I don't know exactly how I want my PC to react to it, or the people within it. I have an idea in my head what type of character I want to play, and who (s)he might be, but I'm still fleshing her out as gameplay progresses. Which means that I don't want to immediately decide that (s)he is possibly limited to certain romances. I don't want to be limited in scenes or dialogue, in seeing the full richness of the game because some elements are making some sexuality toggle check before being accessible.

And as such, I am not forcing anyone to have things in their game that I want in mine. The romances in DA2 are optional - and require player interaction to start and continue. So if a player does not want a romance, of either gender, that player simply needs to not pick the flirt option when conversing with that character. Optional means you can partake or not. No one is forcing you to engage in the romance aspect of the game.

[Dejajeva]

We've had years of gay people tolerating the fact there were only straight romance options in games (and in virtually every other type of entertainment on earth), so I'm pretty sure they don't owe us ****. They deserve to have just as many options as the rest of us. If it really bugs you so much it needs to be toggled off so you don't see it- you've got bigger problems than this game.

Listen, I get where you're coming from. And I can see you really tried to be as nice as possible about it and that's cool. Having to have an option where you need to "turn it off" so you can't "see" the gay...I mean, it's just not realistic. You can't turn off real life. I understand that it may make you uncomfortable, but that's your problem, not Biowares.

Modifié par Dejajeva, 15 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[Dakota Strider]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'd like to just comment on a few things -

Dakota Strider wrote...

Perhaps they should go out and advertise that they are the pro-gay, anti-straight company, and that way they will attract more that want s/s?  And that way, people that are not looking for that, will not mistakenly purchase their games, expecting something different? It would be more honest.   We both know why they will not do that, because no matter how many sales they may gain from those that want to play s/s relationships in a game, they will lose far more from those that do not want to.

I don't know where you drew the conclusion that Bioware is anti-straight. I would consider them pro-player - meaning that they try their best to recognize their vast and wide player audience, and the many peoples within. Different age groups, different genders, different ehtnicities and sexual identities. They seem to be working toward making games that many people, across that spectrum, can enjoy. I don't see any evidence of anti-anybody. 

 

 
We can add a button that will allow players to opt out of straight romance dialogues as well the button to opt out of s/s.  The only reason I could think of people trying to fight this simple little option, is that they are not happy with getting what they want, but they want to force everyone else to have it too.

I'll speak for myself here with regard to a button or toggle for sexuality. I don't want to have to decide how to roleplay all aspects of my character at the character creation screen - because at that point, I have not seen the environment of the game, that piece of the world. I don't know exactly how I want my PC to react to it, or the people within it. I have an idea in my head what type of character I want to play, and who (s)he might be, but I'm still fleshing her out as gameplay progresses. Which means that I don't want to immediately decide that (s)he is possibly limited to certain romances. I don't want to be limited in scenes or dialogue, in seeing the full richness of the game because some elements are making some sexuality toggle check before being accessible.

And as such, I am not forcing anyone to have things in their game that I want in mine. The romances in DA2 are optional - and require player interaction to start and continue. So if a player does not want a romance, of either gender, that player simply needs to not pick the flirt option when conversing with that character. Optional means you can partake or not. No one is forcing you to engage in the romance aspect of the game.

A couple of things real quick.  I never said that I thought Bioware was anti-straight.  I was just asking the other poster if he thought that would gain Bioware more sales, since he seemed to be trying to make the point that Bioware gained a larger share of those that wanted s/s relationships  Its an argument technique, which basically points out the absurb, by making a rhetorical absurb statement.

Regarding the choices I was suggesting at the beginning of DA3, and your mindset in creating a character.  Nothing would stop you from leaving both boxes unchecked and get all dialogue roleplay options.  I was simply suggesting an opt out option, for those that would prefer it, for whatever reason they have.

SPOILER ALERT (sorry, I tried to edit out the spoilers, but it makes the message so open to interpretation to what I meant, it may as well be left unsaid.  If you have not played DA2 yet, stop reading).

And while it has been at least a half year since I played DA2, I am pretty positive that I could not opt out of the romances.  The only way to avoid them, is not to have the npc in your party, and or to never talk to them.  Because if you do talk to them, they will bring them up, regardless of how you have treated the npc.  And the way DA2 was scripted, if you did not talk to certain npcs, then you could not unlock the next npc to join your party.  In my second playthrough, I decided I was going to avoid Anders (because he was psycho, and blew up the cathedral).  But then I was wondering why Isabella never showed up.  Did some research and found out, I had to do the Anders initial quest to get Isabella to even show up in the game.  So...as much as I would have just as soon avoided the uncomfortable situation of having psycho-Anders (who was straight if you played a female) in your party, you could not avoid it, if you wanted other npcs in your party.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 15 avril 2012 - 11:45 .

[Dejajeva]

You don't have to romance anyone in order to pick up all of your companions and complete the quests. The only thing you don't get if you don't romance are the romance scenes. And are you actually saying you didn't put Anders in your party because you were afraid he was going to..what..rub his gay off on you? Poke you with his staff? Because I promise you, in my play through he was completely straight. And sure, you have to do Anders quest to get Isabella, but you don't have to romance Anders in order to do the quest. I'm confused.

[Dakota Strider]

Dejajeva wrote...

You don't have to romance anyone in order to pick up all of your companions and complete the quests. The only thing you don't get if you don't romance are the romance scenes. And are you actually saying you didn't put Anders in your party because you were afraid he was going to..what..rub his gay off on you? Poke you with his staff? Because I promise you, in my play through he was completely straight. And sure, you have to do Anders quest to get Isabella, but you don't have to romance Anders in order to do the quest. I'm confused.

SPOILER ALERT (once again, to answer, I need to include things that happened in the game, for proper context.  Stop reading if you have not played DA2 yet)

You are really great at making assumptions.  I told you specifically why I did not want Anders in the party.  He was crazy, he blew up buildings and killed innocent people.  He was basically a terrorist.  I had Fenris in my party, even though "his gayness might rub off on me".    I don't like to volunteer information about myself, but I was in the military, and when you go to combat, you want to be able to trust the person that is to your right or left, front or back.  It has nothing to do with sexual preference.  Anders was unbalanced, and thus, was not the type of person "my" character would want to have along as a companion. 

But you with your assumptions, and quick rushes to judgement, and apparently desire to start an argument, avoid anything that you have read, because in your mind, you think you already know all about me.  You do not know anything about me, as i can tell about the assumptions you have made in the last few posts. 
Have a nice life.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 15 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[RonixisJK]

Is there any option to turn Anders down in a nice way? From what I've seen, any of the conversation options you have to turn him down are perfectly reasonable to get rivalry points from, in which case I would say Hawke's responses are the problem there. When I did it, and he told me about Karl and asked if I had a problem with that, the only non-flirt option was 'Yes', and I have to say I didn't like that. I think I should have had an option more along the lines of 'I have no problem with it' without implying any sort of interest and/or denying any interest when asked.

Also, I remember that when I was trying to be a good, platonic friend to Alistair as a female mage, he started to think there was more to it, so straight romances can surprise some players too. I think the icons help someone like me in that regard (playing ME1 without them, I had the same problem with Kaidan).

Overall, though, I've been very happy with what Bioware had said regarding this (such as John Epler's linked post above, and a longer response David Gaider wrote a while ago). I hope they continue, and that future games have a good balance like DA2 (I'm perfectly happy with the all-bisexual solution; I'm not sure what ME3 does as I haven't played it yet).

[LadyJaneGrey]

Dakota Strider, I don't understand how Anders being romancable by either gender has any bearing on his later actions.    (We're in the no spoiler forum, by the way.  You might need to edit your post a bit.)

[Dejajeva]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

You don't have to romance anyone in order to pick up all of your companions and complete the quests. The only thing you don't get if you don't romance are the romance scenes. And are you actually saying you didn't put Anders in your party because you were afraid he was going to..what..rub his gay off on you? Poke you with his staff? Because I promise you, in my play through he was completely straight. And sure, you have to do Anders quest to get Isabella, but you don't have to romance Anders in order to do the quest. I'm confused.

You are really great at making assumptions.  I told you specifically why I did not want Anders in the party.  He was crazy, he blew up buildings and killed innocent people.  He was basically a terrorist.  I had Fenris in my party, even though "his gayness might rub off on me".    I don't like to volunteer information about myself, but I was in the military, and when you go to combat, you want to be able to trust the person that is to your right or left, front or back.  It has nothing to do with sexual preference.  Anders was unbalanced, and thus, was not the type of person "my" character would want to have along as a companion. 

But you with your assumptions, and quick rushes to judgement, and apparently desire to start an argument, avoid anything that you have read, because in your mind, you think you already know all about me.  You do not know anything about me, as i can tell about the assumptions you have made in the last few posts. 
Have a nice life.

To be fair, your PC wouldn't have known Anders was imbalanced until after you had recruited him.

I apologize if you thought I was assuming too much. Maybe I was. I've been accused of worse.

But you did say that there was no opt out of romances and I assure you that there is. You do not have to flirt or initiate romances with anyone in order to complete the entire game, nor to pick up any companions. You can tell Anders to shove it after you get the deep roads map from him and never use him again.  Anders and Isabella may both flirt with you, and all you have to do is tell them no, and there you go.

[Dakota Strider]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Dakota Strider, I don't understand how Anders being romancable by either gender has any bearing on his later actions.    (We're in the no spoiler forum, by the way.  You might need to edit your post a bit.)

Edited my responses, as you suggested.

And I am not the one that claimed his actions had anything to do with his sexual preference.  I do not know how I can make it more clear, that the reasons I did not wish to have Anders in my party, were nothing to do with "what team he played for".  It was personal preference based on OTHER parts of his personality.  For similar personal preferences, I did not wish to have Ohgren in my party in DAO.  

However, I guess you could say his future actions were influenced on being rejected in romance, by either gender.  A -20 rivalry is not tiny, contrary to what others have said. 

[LadyJaneGrey]

Dakota Strider wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Dakota Strider, I don't understand how Anders being romancable by either gender has any bearing on his later actions.    (We're in the no spoiler forum, by the way.  You might need to edit your post a bit.)

Edited my responses, as you suggested.

And I am not the one that claimed his actions had anything to do with his sexual preference.  I do not know how I can make it more clear, that the reasons I did not wish to have Anders in my party, were nothing to do with "what team he played for".  It was personal preference based on OTHER parts of his personality.  For similar personal preferences, I did not wish to have Ohgren in my party in DAO.  

However, I guess you could say his future actions were influenced on being rejected in romance, by either gender.  A -20 rivalry is not tiny, contrary to what others have said. 

Fair enough.  My husband slaps down Anders' advances and always has him at 100% friendship so I never saw the problem.

[Sylvanpyxie]

The only thing you don't get if you don't romance are the romance scenes.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue.

In the majority of Bioware games, there's practically half the dialogue content if you don't romance a character, and this would be fine if the dialogue was romance specific but it simply isn't. There is dialogue that is simply story-sharing between friends, which in no way involves romantic dialogue, that is limited to romances.

To see a large portion of Character growth or history you *have* to romance certain characters. So to say there is nothing but a romantic interlude available to romancers is incorrect.

Sorry, that's kind of nit picky... It's a major gripe of mine, Bioware aren't very good at handling their romantic and friendly dialogues.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 16 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[Sutekh]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

The only thing you don't get if you don't romance are the romance scenes.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue.

In the majority of Bioware games, there's practically half the dialogue content if you don't romance a character, and this would be fine if the dialogue was romance specific but it simply isn't. There is dialogue that is simply story-sharing between friends, which in no way involves romantic dialogue, that is limited to romances.

To see a large portion of Character growth or history you *have* to romance certain characters. So to say there is nothing but a romantic interlude available to romancers is incorrect.

Can you give specific examples? I honestly don't recall a single dialog you would only get via romance which wasn't romance specific, be in DAO or DA2.

My playthroughs where Hawke romanced Anders or Isabela didn't feel much different in terms of "non-romance" information than the ones where he didn't, for instance. I got the romance scenes, some additional banters (especially in the DLCs) and that's all. And I learned as much about Zevran or Alistair romancing them or not. "Half the dialogs" and "large portion" seem a tad exaggerated.

[Massakkolia]

Sutekh wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

The only thing you don't get if you don't romance are the romance scenes.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue.

In the majority of Bioware games, there's practically half the dialogue content if you don't romance a character, and this would be fine if the dialogue was romance specific but it simply isn't. There is dialogue that is simply story-sharing between friends, which in no way involves romantic dialogue, that is limited to romances.

To see a large portion of Character growth or history you *have* to romance certain characters. So to say there is nothing but a romantic interlude available to romancers is incorrect.

Can you give specific examples? I honestly don't recall a single dialog you would only get via romance which wasn't romance specific, be in DAO or DA2.

My playthroughs where Hawke romanced Anders or Isabela didn't feel much different in terms of "non-romance" information than the ones where he didn't, for instance. I got the romance scenes, some additional banters (especially in the DLCs) and that's all. And I learned as much about Zevran or Alistair romancing them or not. "Half the dialogs" and "large portion" seem a tad exaggerated.

Isabela is a good example. You won't learn much about her past if you don't sleep with her. I think Sylvanpyxie makes an important point here. The friendship paths should be more extensive and satisfying. Romance scenes should include additional content but they should be about building romantic intimacy, not so much about pouring LI's life story on the main character. 

Edit: Actually, I think friedship paths should also have additional content of their own. After all, that sort of relationship has very different dynamics than a romance does. Friendship shouldn't be less of a relationship than a romance. They should be two different types of relationships.

Modifié par Ria, 16 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[the_one_54321]

Disagree. Romance != only friends. If you want the whole character, commit to the romance. Otherwise, be satisfied with friendship. This ties in to unlocking achievements. An achievement that doesn't even involve unlocking an unexplored or unbeaten portion of the game is not an achievement at all.

TL;DR
Stop making everything easier instead of more challenging.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 16 avril 2012 - 12:51 .