1536 réponses à ce sujet

[R2s Muse]

David Gaider wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
I hope Tallis doesn't come back, it's not that she's a bad character or anything but we've had her in DA2 and she's got her own web series... There's such thing as an overload and for my personally it would feel like she was being forced down our throats.

And I've been left with the impression that, had Tallis been a male character, there'd be far more swooning and talk of how he needs to return as a full romance, etc. etc., from... certain corners of the fanbase.

Hmm, I've been trying to figure out why this impression bothers me. Is the suggestion that the dislike of Tallis is just because she's female? Or, is it that the fanbase for a male version of Tallis is expected to be less discerning, perhaps because statistically speaking that romantic fanbase would tend to be female and indiscriminately swooning? Hmm, slippery slope here.

Of course, since it's hypothetical, we'll never know. But, as far as I can tell, I personally didn't like Tallis because of the character's delivery, which sounded awkward and forced to me -- and too much like previous meek Felicia Day characters trying to sound tough. So, if she were suddenly male, different voice actor, maybe that would change it. I dunno. That's perhaps always the difficulty with a character being so closely linked to a real life person, that it can be hard to distinguish your feelings for one from the other.

[Pappi]

@David Gaider I like Tallis a lot, but I am a felica fan so maybe I'm a little biased. If she were to be in DA3 I'd be very glad. But I think her character needs to have some kind of major life-changing impact (offscreen) after mark of the assassin to make her subtly different from DA2 Tallis.

The fact she is qunari appeals to me a lot--I think the inclusion of a qunari party member will increase her appeal too (Heck, we don't see many party members who are a team in their own right, like Misson and Zaalbar in KOTOR 1 for example).

[Kail Ashton]

Speaking of DLC characters; i'm reminded of the mage guy from the witch hunt DLC; Fin i believe; i'd like to see him as a companion in DA3, with the circles ruined you could shoe horn him on in to Orlais, wouldn't be any worse then time traveling anorexic Anders

Had way too much personality and quirks to be left as a throw away dlc character (at the very least plagiarize him )

[Pappi]

Yes!!! I loved him ahahaha. Who doesn't want a mage based off of Harry Dresdan? Though I rather liked the idea of him and Ariane being a couple--so no romance. :3

[the_one_54321]

If they included Cullen and made him into a pro-Chantry zealot, that happened to also be obsessed with just treatment, I'd laugh my butt off.

[R2s Muse]

David Gaider wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
IIRC, Felicia Day picked the concept of the character out of many options -- meaning an Elven Ben-Hassrath -- and the actual writing was done by the devs.

That's correct. She wrote Tallis for the webseries, but we wrote Tallis for the DLC-- and the concept was one we came up with, among several from which Felicia chose.

While any character is going to have a certain amount of love/hate coming their way, it really is interesting to watch how gender also plays into it. Watching some of the cries of "Mary Sue!" or the view of Tallis by some as if she were some kind of competitor to the female player has been quite interesting... and neither of those things would be the same if Tallis were male, I'm certain.

Which is not to say that someone should like Tallis if they're not inclined to. The extent to which some of these people will go to try and justify their dislike is, however, rather intriguing. Personally, I think Felicia did a fine job... and since it wasn't her decision to break canon (as much as said canon can be broken, considering it's something people decided was canon based on their perception of Sten's dialogues) I'd hardly blame her for it... though I guess since people like to think of celebrities as arrogant/pampered it's more fun to think that's the case. Nothing could be further from the truth in Felicia's case.

Ah, ninja'd. Thanks for the clarification, David. The gender issue is... interesting, to say the least. And, indeed, the culture and abuse of celebrity is sad. I admire what Felicia Day has accomplished (and just finally finished the Guild, which I thought was hilarious). I'm just not that fond of some of her characters (her slayer character among them LOL).

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

That's correct. She wrote Tallis for the webseries, but we wrote Tallis for the DLC-- and the concept was one we came up with, among several from which Felicia chose.

While any character is going to have a certain amount of love/hate coming their way, it really is interesting to watch how gender also plays into it. Watching some of the cries of "Mary Sue!" or the view of Tallis by some as if she were some kind of competitor to the female player has been quite interesting... and neither of those things would be the same if Tallis were male, I'm certain.

Yea, I don't know why people call her a Mary Sue. She certainly isn't one.

But the ending of MotA certainly made her closer to one, for an anti-Qunari Hawke anyway.

David Gaider wrote...
Which is not to say that someone should like Tallis if they're not inclined to. The extent to which some of these people will go to try and justify their dislike is, however, rather intriguing. Personally, I think Felicia did a fine job... and since it wasn't her decision to break canon (as much as said canon can be broken, considering it's something people decided was canon based on their perception of Sten's dialogues) I'd hardly blame her for it... though I guess since people like to think of celebrities as arrogant/pampered it's more fun to think that's the case. Nothing could be further from the truth in Felicia's case.

I imagine she's exactly like Merrill. Perky, adorable, kinda dorky, intelligent, witty, and definitely lovable.

I also imagine that for us to truly understand Qunari culture, hearing about it secondhand from Qunari won't do it justice. So I think that we'd have to see a Qunari village at least to begin to understand the complexity of the culture.

We hear things from Sten that make it sound oppressive to a person outside of such a culture but we also hear things from both him and Tallis that make it seem like a culture where it's shown that family is not about blood, but about closeness. Sten did this to a degree, when he talks about his brothers in the Beresaad and his talks on the Tal-Vashoth.

Sten's dialogue also made the Ben-Hassrath seem like... riot control cranked up to 11, based on his post-Blight dialogue about the Qunoran-Vehl.

Tallis and Sten make Qunari society seem like Bobby Singer from Supernatural sometimes. Gruff and harsh on the outside, but caring on the inside. Like I said, it seems that they emphasize family not being about who you're related to, but who your friends are.

Would that be a correct assumption on Qunari society, more or less?

A bit off topic though.

Uh.... give me a Dwarven Shale and i'll be happy. Give me a Sigrun or a Velanna romance and I'll be happy. Or Cassandra.

There, on topic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2012 - 06:15 .

[Melca36]

David Gaider wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
I hope Tallis doesn't come back, it's not that she's a bad character or anything but we've had her in DA2 and she's got her own web series... There's such thing as an overload and for my personally it would feel like she was being forced down our throats.

And I've been left with the impression that, had Tallis been a male character, there'd be far more swooning and talk of how he needs to return as a full romance, etc. etc., from... certain corners of the fanbase.

I think female fans can be their own worse enemies when it comes to characters. I actually liked Tallis and she made want to know more about the Qunari.

My hubby loved loved her.  He also liked Isabela and loved Aveline but couldn't stand Merrill.

[Pappi]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux I actullay like the analogy a LOT.

As for Tallis and the gender issue, I always like to think really really good characters don't have to be defined by gender. I mean, would it really make a differance if Tallis was male? (I include the web episodes in this also). I think she could have been either in all honesty

[TEWR]

Pappi wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux I actullay like the analogy a LOT.

Jim Beaver/Bobby Singer for DA3 Companion and LI (for those that want to romance him)!

But he has to be like Bobby Singer. Because Bobby's awesome. Every time he says "idjit", I laugh.

R2s Muse wrote...

That's perhaps always the difficulty with a character being so closely linked to a real life person, that it can be hard to distinguish your feelings for one from the other.

I've found this to be true sometimes when I was playing MotA. Somewhat, anyway. It became hard for me to not see Felicia Day in DA. Instead of seeing Tallis, I saw Felicia Day. And it had nothing to do with what Tallis looked like.

I think it was just the voice.

The same held true for Fenris, at first. For a time, I could only see Balthier instead of Fenris. After a while, I saw Fenris as Fenris.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[R2s Muse]

The Ethereal Writer Redux...

Zjarcal wrote...

That's perhaps always the difficulty with a character being so closely linked to a real life person, that it can be hard to distinguish your feelings for one from the other.

I've found this to be true sometimes when I was playing MotA. Somewhat, anyway. It became hard for me to not see Felicia Day in DA. Instead of seeing Tallis, I saw Felicia Day. And it had nothing to do with what Tallis looked like.

I think it was just the voice.

The same held true for Fenris, at first. For a time, I could only see Balthier instead of Fenris. After a while, I saw Fenris as Fenris.

Agree... I think the associations can go both ways. And, that happens so often with animated movies for me. Once I know the voice actor... that's all I see. Altho, who's Zjarcal?  I think that was me...

(edited for formatting fail)

Modifié par R2s Muse, 24 avril 2012 - 06:29 .

[TEWR]

Altho, who's Zjarcal? I think that was me...

lol your avatar reminded me of another poster. It's the pony. I see ponies everywhere and I begin to associate them with specific posters.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[R2s Muse]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Altho, who's Zjarcal? I think that was me...

lol your avatar reminded me of another poster. It's the pony. I see ponies everywhere and I begin to associate them with specific posters.

LOL no problem!   Yeah, ponies abound...

Modifié par R2s Muse, 24 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[Pappi]

You know what would be cool, having a party member that is an elf of Arlathan--who has somehow travelled through the Eluvian.

Having a chaarcter from time when elves were reportedly still immortal and the dominant race on the continent of Thedas will be interesting in knowing the history of the dragon age universe and there could be some nice elf-human racism quips--or or Merill is in the party, a similar thing with Liara and Javik is that the civilization of the elves is a lot different to what she thought.

There could also be some interesting morrigan and former grey warden theories, or flemeth seeking out that character for various purposes. A character who is suddenly stripped of immortality, or who is actullay older than they look would also be interesting.

[LolaLei]

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me.

I'm mildly offended at the suggestion that some people don't like Tallis because she's female and voice acted/played by an attractive female. I personally have no problem with female characters at all, it wouldn't matter to me if a celeb done was the VA either, so long as they do the character justice and give it there all. Hell I've really disliked a lot of male characters in my time too lol.

[TEWR]

LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me

Basically a character with no flaws whatsoever or no noteworthy flaws. Someone who, in fanfiction, is made to be too perfect.

As I've said before, Tallis isn't one. But the anti-Qunari ending to MotA is a major factor in why she's seen as being Sue-ish.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2012 - 06:52 .

[Curlain]

LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me.

I'm mildly offended at the suggestion that some people don't like Tallis because she's female and voice acted/played by an attractive female. I personally have no problem with female characters at all, it wouldn't matter to me if a celeb done was the VA either, so long as they do the character justice and give it there all. Hell I've really disliked a lot of male characters in my time too lol.

Not making a comment to do with Tallis (since I haven't seen the webisodes or played any of the DLC for DA2) but here is a definition and history of the term Mary Sue, from it's Star Trek origins to a rather wide variety of applications that exist now:

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

(it also raises the issue of whether the term 'Mary Sue' has any really useful application anymore, as in many respects it has become to wide-ranging and nebulous in it's usuage, and can be thrown around when someone dislikes a character for reasons other then being a 'Mary Sue')

Modifié par Curlain, 24 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[gonzalez.melissa53]

Tallis isn't a "Mary Sue". Edited!!!! spoiler ahead!!!! Sorry!!!!! Don't read if you haven't played the dlc!
 

She's struggling with her religious beliefs and (It's been awhile so correct me if i'm wrong here) but didn't she just kill her teacher and someone she claims to have "saved" her? She lied to and used Hawke to get where and what she wanted. Now I'm not saying that she couldn't have used more "depth" but the dlc wasn't that long... I think they did a really nice job with the character for the amount of time we had her in party and I would love to see more of her for one XD!

Modifié par gonzalez.melissa53, 24 avril 2012 - 06:58 .

[R2s Muse]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me

Basically a character with no flaws whatsoever or no noteworthy flaws. Someone who, in fanfiction, is made to be too perfect.

But, also importantly, a self-insert by the author. I think this characteristic is a big part of why Tallis is considered as such, since she looks so much like F.D. Tallis has also been accused of over the top badassery, which I suppose is a kind of flawlessness, as well.

I hadn't before considered how gender-laden the term Mary Sue is, though.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 24 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[LolaLei]

Ah thanks for clarifying, I've never heard that expedition before!

I wouldn't say she was a Mary Sue, she had cocked up quiet royally from what the DLC suggested (I won't go into details 'cause I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't played it yet.)

[gonzalez.melissa53]

R2s Muse wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me

Basically a character with no flaws whatsoever or no noteworthy flaws. Someone who, in fanfiction, is made to be too perfect.

But, also importantly, a self-insert by the author. I think this characteristic is a big part of why Tallis is considered as such, since she looks so much like F.D. Tallis has also been accused of over the top badassery, which I suppose is a kind of flawlessness, as well.

I hadn't before considered how gender-laden the term Mary Sue is as well, though.

Isn't over the top badassery what DA is about? Our wardens came from really harsh beginings and beat impossible odds! Hawke came from nothing and became a Champion of Kirkwall and in some cases the Vicount! That's the appeal of it! At least for me. It fantastic and compleatly unrealistic! Bad guys guts spill and parts go flying everywhere! What's not to love? XD

[berelinde]

Part of the problem with Tallis as a character is that people cannot seem to refer to the character without naming the actor.

Are we meant to evaluate the character or are we being presented with the avatar of a real person? If it's the former, the character is a little more "special" than I can forgive. She has the Spunky Rebel Princess thing, she gets hit on *a lot* more than the protagonist, she never loses a banter, is never made to look genuinely foolish or incompetent, is always ready with a snappy or clever comeback, and despite being utterly useless as a rogue through most of the DLC, somehow magically knows how to pick the lock on a cell door that rogue Hawke isn't even given the option of trying. It goes on and on. Every character does need something to make them memorable, and I fully expect every NPC to have *one* special thing working for him or her, but when it *all* goes her way... Why is Hawke even there, anyway? Every character has their quirks, it just seems as if the character Tallis was given a bit too much love during her creation process. Too much speshul, and that's surprising, coming from BioWare. Their characters are usually far better balanced than that. Good with the bad, endearing traits as well as annoying ones, etc. Tallis was too much of a good thing.

If we're talking about an actor avatar and we really are meant to think that Felicia Day = Tallis... uh, yeah. Blech.

Mary Sues are an interesting phenomenon. Very few people deliberately set out to create one, and they deny having done so once they have. They blame the reader, citing consumer bias, prejudice, or ignorance. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Reader (or player) perception defines the character, not author intent.

[Nerdage]

The only thing that really gave me that impression of her was her entrance, even Zevran didn't come across that showy with his ninja knife throwing, it rubbed me the wrong way a bit how effortlessly awesome (for want of a better word..) she was made out to be. Aside from that I liked her character, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to her reappearing.

[brushyourteeth]

I really enjoyed Felicia Day as Tallis. If there's more to her character, I'd be interested to hear about it, but it seemed like it was pretty thoroughly canvassed in MotA. I'm not all for having more Felicia Day just for having more Felicia Day -- she'd need to have something to add to the story.

I had just one eye-roll moment when her character is introduced. She does all that cool assassin-y stuff and lands on some guy's chest (awesome) and slits their leader's throat.
And then there's this kind of *ping* moment (at 5:16) where she poses and I felt like we were supposed to go "AAAH! IT'S FELICIA DAAAAAY!"

A little cheesy. But not her fault.

But I really enjoyed her during the banter at the party. Felt like I was just out with one of the girls!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 24 avril 2012 - 07:03 .