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Companion & Romance Wish List for DA3


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#1101
Dunquixote

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...
I liked Sten too.   I can actually understand some of the points he makes.

I
found Sten to be utterly selfless and honest. Not everything he had to
say struck a chord with me, but that much about him made him very
admirable to me.


I agree. It's nice to see a variety in personalities, even if you end up hating a character. Like for me, I hate Isabella for being a complete total selfish ****, pardon the language. But at the same time, I understand that it'd be boring to have every companion with the same personality. From these experiences--hatred towards a character, irritation, infatuation, or respect, that all affects how you make choices--well, when you first play through that is (at least for me), which makes the game a much more entertaining experience even when playing it for the millionth time--for me, that was Origins.

Modifié par Dunquixote, 24 avril 2012 - 08:09 .


#1102
5trangeCase

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...
I liked Sten too.   I can actually understand some of the points he makes.

I found Sten to be utterly selfless and honest. Not everything he had to say struck a chord with me, but that much about him made him very admirable to me.


This exactly. I did not agree with a lot of what Sten said (the Qun-isms were very true) but I just thought he was a great guy.

EDIT: I'd just like to say that if I was emotionally invested in the story, I'd probably have stronger emotions about things, I did not hate Isabela because she betrayed me, but because I thought she was a poor character. If I was invested in the story I might have hated Anders. All my emotions towards the characters are from the perception of the gamer. I'd just like to say that I am utterly certain that the fact that I was not emotionally invested in the story had nothing to do with the creators.

Modifié par 5trangeCase, 24 avril 2012 - 08:19 .


#1103
Brockololly

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Dunquixote wrote...
I agree. It's nice to see a variety in personalities, even if you end up hating a character. Like for me, I hate Isabella for being a complete total selfish ****, pardon the language. But at the same time, I understand that it'd be boring to have every companion with the same personality. From these experiences--hatred towards a character, irritation, infatuation, or respect, that all affects how you make choices--well, when you first play through that is (at least for me), which makes the game a much more entertaining experience even when playing it for the millionth time--for me, that was Origins.


I'd agree, except its a fine line between having a character you don't like and then having that dislike quickly turn into apathy. Thats my issue with most of the companions in DA2- None of them hooked me for any particular reason out of the gate with any novel character trait, and then as they talked more I wished they would shut up and that dislike quickly turned into apathy, where, by the end of the game I didn't care if any of them lived or died. Thats not hate- it was disinterest and apathy.

I thought too many of the DA2 companions were too similar to each other or seemed too one note, as most of their character development seemed tied down to one big issue. Like both Anders and Fenris being broody and emo but basically just different sides to the same coin (mages/anti-mage).

I'm fine with unlikeable characters in fiction- hell, most of the characters in A Song of Ice and Fire are complete ****s and quite unlikeable, but they're all really interesting and diverse.

Then again, I think in an RPG, especially where the player character is voiced, if the player can't connect and like their own player character then you've got major issues from the start that no amount of interesting companions can fix.

#1104
Maria Caliban

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LolaLei wrote...

...people would liken it to the Diane Allers/ME3 situation...


Yes, someone would complain, but that's normal. People complained when Claudia Black was cast as Morrigan as well, and we all recall how she butchered the character with her terrible act... oh wait, that didn't happen.

#1105
Dunquixote

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5trangeCase wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...
I liked Sten too.   I can actually understand some of the points he makes.

I found Sten to be utterly selfless and honest. Not everything he had to
say struck a chord with me, but that much about him made him very
admirable to me.


This exactly. I did not agree with a lot of what Sten said (the Qun-isms were very true) but I just thought he was a great guy.

EDIT:
I'd just like to say that if I was emotionally invested in the story,
I'd probably have stronger emotions about things, I did not hate Isabela
because she betrayed me, but because I thought she was a poor
character. If I was invested in the story I might have hated Anders. All
my emotions towards the characters are from the perception of the
gamer. I'd just like to say that I am utterly certain that the fact that
I was not emotionally invested in the story had nothing to do with the
creators.


For me, I separate the creators from the story.  I appreciate every effort they put into the game, while having my own criticisms.  I might be misunderstanding what you are trying to say, and if I am, I apologize =(. What I enjoy the most about video games usually is the story. As much as I disliked DA II, I thought the story was quite interesting overall, if you think of whole story and not as separate acts. The whole idea of a mage-templar was is what makes me rethink on what I don't like about the game. Of course, I liked other things, like how once you find a source, you don't have to obtain the ingredients like in DAO. As stupid as it sounds, as much as parents say you don't get anything out of video games, from paying attention to the story and connecting it to either myself or things I'm familiar with outside of it--like religion or politics, you can actually get a lot out. I don't intentionally get myself emotionally involved. I don't even realize it until much later. 

Modifié par Dunquixote, 24 avril 2012 - 08:31 .


#1106
the_one_54321

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David Gaider wrote...
Like I've said previously, "fan-hate" is preferable to apathy, when it comes to the basic purpose that such characters serve... and, as far as I can tell, the bar for fans to hate just about any character is pretty darned low.

"What? He dared to talk about his personal problems? What a WHINER." ;)

This is understandable and practical. But what happens when the list of character flaws causes some fans to not like almost all the characters in a party? 

I loved to hate Zevran. And I got that out of allowing him in my party only one time. I loved Morrigan despite everything about her that rubbed me the wrong way. But in DAII, what you have are a group of people where the majority of them will stab you in the back if you don't go out of your way to convince them not to. And I'm not referencing the Fade Sequence here. Merril, Isabela, Anders, and Fenris each have the liklihood of doing something horrible to you or despite you, or just being unpleasant and combative, at some point or throughout the game.

For me, that's a tough wall to climb over. If I had other incentives to even try.

#1107
Maria Caliban

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LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me.


A female character who resembles the average male hero.

Frequent traits:
  • Attractive to the opposite sex
  • Capable
  • Intelligent
  • Extraordinary in some way
  • Liked by many


#1108
the_one_54321

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I want to fix Dunquixote's quotes...  :?

#1109
Dunquixote

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Sorry. I fixed it.

#1110
Guest_Begemotka_*

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Maria Caliban wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me.


A female character who resembles the average male hero.

Frequent traits:
  • Attractive to the opposite sex
  • Capable
  • Intelligent
  • Extraordinary in some way
  • Liked by many


Oh,you mean James Bond?:o


#1111
LolaLei

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LOL!

#1112
the_one_54321

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Begemotka wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Why Mary Sue? I don't understand that term, can someone clarify that for me.


A female character who resembles the average male hero.

Frequent traits:
  • Attractive to the opposite sex
  • Capable
  • Intelligent
  • Extraordinary in some way
  • Liked by many


Oh,you mean James Bond?:o

Though originally inspired by a female fan fic character, Mary Sue is hardly a gender specific trope any longer.

It is arguable that all lead characters are either Mary Sues or Marty Stus, depending on your intepretation of "extreme."

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 08:47 .


#1113
berelinde

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brushyourteeth wrote...

We live in an age of tolerance where everybody's a jerk for actually believing in something. Weird.

The problem with tolerance is that everybody expects others to respect their views without returning the favor. It's human nature and is just as relevant now as it was a thousand years ago. Only the topics under discussion have changed.

The inclination is strong to say that characters like Sebastian are disliked because they are religious, but I'm not sure that's the case. Sebastian is a character whose personal conflict has made him somewhat passive. He talks about doing things, taking action, but his inner turmoil turns him down another path before he gets a chance to do anything decisive. Not entirely his fault, but the trait is present, nonetheless. This impression of passivity (deserved or otherwise) combined with his personal religious convictions and tendency to include platitudes in conversation give some people the impression that he's preachy. I don't actually dislike him, but he reminds me strongly of Cernd from Baldur's Gate 2. Also of Nalia and Aerie, to a lesser extent.

Over the years, some deeply religious characters have been quite popular. In the DA universe, more people like Leliana than dislike her. Ditto Alistair. In BG2, Keldorn was one of the most popular characters in the cast. He was certainly my favorite.

In the end, reliability and support of the PC's actions and decisions may be more important than religion (or lack thereof). People like characters that have got their back, despite their own agendas.

Modifié par berelinde, 24 avril 2012 - 08:44 .


#1114
Guest_Begemotka_*

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@the_one : lulz.

Yep,his name is Stu...Marty Stu.:)
Those Mary Sue / Marty Stu traits described there just crack me up.Especially Marty.

#1115
Brockololly

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Maria Caliban wrote...
Yes, someone would complain, but that's normal. People complained when Claudia Black was cast as Morrigan as well, and we all recall how she butchered the character with her terrible act... oh wait, that didn't happen.


The problem with Chobot is that she did a pretty awful job just reading the lines, the actual face model is firmly seated in the Uncanny Valley and her presence is just distracting when we had an already established character like Emily Wong that could have filled that role just fine.  Claudia Black actually can act and has done plenty of voice work, not to mention Morrigan had a unique face, they didn't just try to scan in Claudia Black's face like they did Chobot, so you didn't have that weird Uncanny Valley vibe.

#1116
LolaLei

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Oh George, you really are a class act :-P

#1117
Guest_Begemotka_*

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I mean I am not a Bond fan,because he strikes me as too perfect (even when he is not martystued hehe).
Someone like Boromir from LOTR would strike me as more of a hero,perhaps because of his apparent flaws and his ability to `fess up when messed up.

#1118
Maria Caliban

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Brockololly wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Yes, someone would complain, but that's normal. People complained when Claudia Black was cast as Morrigan as well, and we all recall how she butchered the character with her terrible act... oh wait, that didn't happen.


The problem with Chobot is that she did a pretty awful job just reading the lines, the actual face model is firmly seated in the Uncanny Valley and her presence is just distracting when we had an already established character like Emily Wong that could have filled that role just fine.  Claudia Black actually can act and has done plenty of voice work, not to mention Morrigan had a unique face, they didn't just try to scan in Claudia Black's face like they did Chobot, so you didn't have that weird Uncanny Valley vibe.

I wasn't talking about Diana Allers but Tallis.

Though I go agree about Diana.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 avril 2012 - 09:07 .


#1119
LolaLei

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Yeah, what Brockololly said.

#1120
the_one_54321

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LolaLei wrote...
Oh George, you really are a class act :-P

Well you asked, and I didn't want the answer you recieved to lead you to believe it was some kind of sexist trope. It may have originally stemmed from gender roles in characters, but the "inhumanly awesome" character is hardly gender specific any longer.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 09:02 .


#1121
brushyourteeth

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berelinde wrote...

The inclination is strong to say that characters like Sebastian are disliked because they are religious, but I'm not sure that's the case.


When people continually write things like "I'm sick of that bastard and his f-ing Maker" and "He can f- the divine all the way to Starkhaven" I'm pretty sure it's about his religion.  Posted Image

You give people too much credit, my friend.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 24 avril 2012 - 09:04 .


#1122
the_one_54321

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brushyourteeth wrote...

berelinde wrote...
The inclination is strong to say that characters like Sebastian are disliked because they are religious, but I'm not sure that's the case.

When people continually write things like "I'm sick of that bastard and his f-ing Maker" and "He can f- the divine all the way to Starkhaven" I'm pretty sure it's about his religion.  Posted Image

You give people too much credit, my friend.

I'd argue that it is the common approach for players to not examine any character more deeply than their archetypal shell unless the player has already identified a reason to like the character. From that point on, bias almost universally takes complete control of perception.

#1123
brushyourteeth

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the_one_54321 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

berelinde wrote...
The inclination is strong to say that characters like Sebastian are disliked because they are religious, but I'm not sure that's the case.

When people continually write things like "I'm sick of that bastard and his f-ing Maker" and "He can f- the divine all the way to Starkhaven" I'm pretty sure it's about his religion.  Posted Image

You give people too much credit, my friend.

I'd argue that it is the common approach for players to not examine any character more deeply than their archetypal shell unless the player has already identified a reason to like the character. From that point on, bias almost universally takes complete control of perception.


I'll agree with that if you'll agree that it's sad.

#1124
nightscrawl

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David Gaider wrote...

Possibly people are conditioned to accept the "Star Trek" mold of aliens-- where every planet you visit has one dominant terrain and its aliens have one characteric that is true for every member of that race.

I find that statement extremely interesting, since I am a huge fan of Star Trek. The Next Generation did themselves no favors with groups like the romulans when they had them all with the exact same hair and the exact same clothing. By comparison, romulans in The Original Series were more individual, even in military settings.

I think not enough effort to separate the Qunari (the people who follow the Qun, no matter their race), from the kossith (race of gray giants) in the game world has been made. Effort was made with MotA yes, but most of that was through expository dialogue with Tallis, some of which came off as lecturey, and if by the time that rolls around people aren't really liking the DLC they are less apt to care about the distinctions she is trying to explain.

And to be honest, it really doesn't help that in DA2 there are all of 1-3 different models (it's difficult for me to separate the face from the voice in my head sometimes, so I can't be sure here) of male kossith Qunari, not including the Arishok. In addition, the kossith we saw in DA2 were all in their military kit with the red paint, leather pants, Qun logo helmets, and so forth, so they appeared more homogenous than they might be otherwise. For example, if you gathered a large group of only our white soldiers, standing about in their camo with their military hair cuts, I think they might appear similar to what we were presented with in DA2 for the Qunari.

While the above is logical for a group of Qunari stranded by the sinking of their dreadnaught, that doesn't matter. The thing to take away is how their presentation affected players and their perception of Qunari, whether that matches with your design goal for that group, and how those perceptions can possibly be altered or fixed in future games.

As for Tallis, while I don't think this was your intent, your statements on the male/female aspect might lead to some female players thinking that you are now biased by this observation so that no matter what we might say in our criticism of Tallis, it will be dismissed as "another female player who doesn't like Tallis." Which is extremely irritating, especially as it's a common thing for womens' opinions to be dismissed because they are women.

At any rate, I wouldn't mind seeing her back if we had more Qunari plots. With recurring characters and/or cameos the most fun aspect is that you know of them and their past experiences when you encounter them in some new media, lending extra flavor to anything they might say or do that references those events you played out. And romance? Well they're optional aren't they?


As for others... The two I'm most on the fence about would be Nathaniel Howe and Cullen. On the one hand I get all fangirly thinking about it ^_^ . On the other hand, it's nice having those characters in my head as just friends (specifically Nate) as they were in in DAA/DA2. For Cullen, if he is a possible romance in DA3, I would love to have a reference to the mage Warden thrown in there somewhere. His comments about her in a dreamy tone of voice in DA2 practically demand it, and extra juicy if most of the plot is mage/templar stuff >:D .

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 avril 2012 - 09:10 .


#1125
the_one_54321

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brushyourteeth wrote...
I'll agree with that if you'll agree that it's sad.

I most definitely agree.