1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Oh George, you really are a class act :-P

Well you asked, and I didn't want the answer you recieved to lead you to believe it was some kind of sexist trope. It may have originally stemmed from gender roles in characters, but the "inhumanly awesome" character is hardly gender specific any longer.

That Mary Sue is applied to men is no different than b**** being applied to men. It's still sexist. Why? Because female characters are still evaluated differently than male ones.

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'll agree with that if you'll agree that it's sad.

I most definitely agree.

[the_one_54321]

Maria Caliban wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Oh George, you really are a class act :-P

Well you asked, and I didn't want the answer you recieved to lead you to believe it was some kind of sexist trope. It may have originally stemmed from gender roles in characters, but the "inhumanly awesome" character is hardly gender specific any longer.

That Mary Sue is applied to men is no different than b**** being applied to men. It's still sexist. Why? Because female characters are still evaluated differently than male ones.

And I suppose that Marty Stu doesn't qualify as being equally sexist to men? Gender roles go both ways.

[nightscrawl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That Mary Sue is applied to men is no different than b**** being applied to men. It's still sexist. Why? Because female characters are still evaluated differently than male ones.

Out of curiosity: how is it sexist if the situation is of a male author writing a male character?

The only example I can think of comes from the World of Warcraft novels written by Richard A. Knaak and his character, the mage Rhonin, which has been widely criticized as being a Mary Sue.

[Dunquixote]

Brockololly wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...
I agree. It's nice to see a variety in personalities, even if you end up hating a character. Like for me, I hate Isabella for being a complete total selfish ****, pardon the language. But at the same time, I understand that it'd be boring to have every companion with the same personality. From these experiences--hatred towards a character, irritation, infatuation, or respect, that all affects how you make choices--well, when you first play through that is (at least for me), which makes the game a much more entertaining experience even when playing it for the millionth time--for me, that was Origins.

I'd agree, except its a fine line between having a character you don't like and then having that dislike quickly turn into apathy. Thats my issue with most of the companions in DA2- None of them hooked me for any particular reason out of the gate with any novel character trait, and then as they talked more I wished they would shut up and that dislike quickly turned into apathy, where, by the end of the game I didn't care if any of them lived or died. Thats not hate- it was disinterest and apathy.

I thought too many of the DA2 companions were too similar to each other or seemed too one note, as most of their character development seemed tied down to one big issue. Like both Anders and Fenris being broody and emo but basically just different sides to the same coin (mages/anti-mage).

I'm fine with unlikeable characters in fiction- hell, most of the characters in A Song of Ice and Fire are complete ****s and quite unlikeable, but they're all really interesting and diverse.

Then again, I think in an RPG, especially where the player character is voiced, if the player can't connect and like their own player character then you've got major issues from the start that no amount of interesting companions can fix.

That's how I felt about Hawke and both male/female voice actors.   They both made me want to tear my hair out.  That's probably the main reason I thought I hated the game the first few times I played it, but now, I understand it was more of the little things that made me feel that way and not the overall game itself.  From the dialogue, the actor's expression saying certain things, and the personality, made me want to vomit even the first time playing; the mother probably more so than hawke, but female hawke especially distracted me from the fun moments of the game. 

The flirting dialogue from female hawke made me cringe every time.  -shivers-

Modifié par Dunquixote, 24 avril 2012 - 10:29 .

[BubbleDncr]

Now that Mr. Gaider has pointed it out - yes, I do feel like part of my dislike for Tallis because she is female. I think in general, people like their character to be the coolest character in the game, and, since Tallis is a girl, to a female player it felt like she was stealing the show. Sure, she was nice enough and had some funny moments, but she was competition for "being awesome" in a way none of the other companions have ever done. The Warden and Hawke are pretty obviously the "stars" of their games, with companions being the supporting cast, but in MoTA, it feels like Hawke and Tallis are co-stars. And I think girls are fine with co-staring with a guy, but not another girl.

But I also hate her because she had a plot-shield at the end, and even tho it made total sense for my Hawke to kill her, and I had ample opportunity to do so, I could not.

[LolaLei]

You tried to kill her? I like to try and save all my companions, even the ones I don't always gel with... It's like, they helped you on your epic journey so you kinda owe it to them to keep them all safe. That's how I always play my main game that I import over anyway.

[BubbleDncr]

LolaLei wrote...

You tried to kill her? I like to try and save all my companions, even the ones I don't always gel with... It's like, they helped you on your epic journey so you kinda owe it to them to keep them all safe. That's how I always play my main game that I import over anyway.

She didn't help me on an epic jounrey. She tricked me into helping her for 2 hours for a cause I'm actually pretty against helping, and then just smiled andthrew jokes my way.

[LolaLei]

It was fun though! Got Hawke 'n' co out of Kirkwall for a while. I actually really enjoyed MotA. I'd still prefer Cullen as a companion/love interest over Tallis though lol.

[VampOrchid]

David Gaider wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...
Hmm male/female. I just found the character felt out of place. I can't put my finger on it. But I wasn't convinced that she was part of the Dragon age world. Loved the series to death and loved that there was a DLC that ppl enjoyed. I just wasn't convinced. I don't know why. I love Felicia Day...Something felt off. Wish I had a better way to explain it.

I think it's because she's the first evidence of a Qunari that breaks out of the Sten mold-- namely humourless, gravelly-voiced giant. It would perhaps have been easier had the first character to do so also been a Kossith, but here we had a character that diverged from the perceived Qunari "norm" in a great many ways... thus some people look at that and think "well that's not a Qunari", when we say "there's more to the Qunari than what you've seen, or even what the Qunari themselves would like to believe."

Possibly people are conditioned to accept the "Star Trek" mold of aliens-- where every planet you visit has one dominant terrain and its aliens have one characteric that is true for every member of that race. Possibly just liked the idea of the Qunari being as utterly uniform as Sten proposed, and took him at his word... and why wouldn't you, until presented with evidence to the contrary? The difference here is that, when the contrary evidence was presented, some people chose to refute the character or the reasons for its existence.... as if us wanting Felicia Day to star in our game overrode all basic sense and convinced us to re-write our own setting just so we could do it. Which smacks of contempt in the same vein as the "Mary Sue" comment (one of those phrases which has practically lost all meaning from over-use), but what can you do?

Not that a male version of Tallis wouldn't have come with his own baggage-- but that's really the point, here.

See now this is interesting. I think the issue, maybe for me, is that she was an elf in a Qun role. And that's probably exactly it...'the hey that's not a Qunari' is probably what felt off. I'm sure if she would have played as an elf, in an elf role with maybe an accent or something I would have enjoyed the character more. I get that the Qun is a society and not really a race...but I think that's the thing I couldn't put my finger on that bothered me so much. It's a brain trick. One that makes you go hmmmm something is off here. Even if the character was male, the fact that Talis was an elf, regardless of gender is, in a Qun role is probably what makes me go...meh.

[VampOrchid]

I still would love to see Jowan and Dagna come back. It would be cool to have Dagna, even as the chick to sell you magic stuff and do enchantments, but travels with you. Jowan could be the blood mage of the party. Fenreyiel would be nice to have (not sure if I spelt his name right.) Wade would be cool to have as the armor dealer maybe even see him getting into building weapons now.

For companions that could be possible LIs...Nathaniel. A grey warden, and a rogue. Has a nice touch to is there. Plus a chance for many many quests. Cullen of course, as a warrior in the group, not to mention the chantry voice of the group. There always seems to be one. DA we had Leliana as the voice there, Alistair was the ex templar. DA2 we had Sebastian the voice of the chantry, and Fenris our warrior who was starting to like the idea of the chant and all that stuff. So lets mash that up together and we can get Cullen His can be an interesting story and could make for interesting quests....depending on where we are going le wink le wink.

Also, that Orlesian warden guy from DA2, I call him mister moustache, I always forget his name. But he could be interesting as the older, wiser voice of the group. And Varric, I would love to see him come back as well. Other then that. yeah...

[meanieweenie]

Let's get Sandal a piece of a** and let him hook up with Dagna. LOL

[Maria Caliban]

BubbleDncr wrote...

I think in general, people like their character to be the coolest character in the game...

They do, and most games cater to that desire. Which is one of many reasons games are considered entertainment but not art.

[BioFan (Official)]

meanieweenie wrote...

Let's get Sandal a piece of a** and let him hook up with Dagna. LOL

[VampOrchid]

double post

Modifié par VampOrchid, 25 avril 2012 - 12:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

the_one_54321 wrote...

...sexist to men?

Things that don't exist:
Santa Claus
The Easter Bunny
Reverse Racism
Heterophobia
Sexism against men

If you want to talk about how gender roles negatively affect men and women, that's fine, but that's not the same as sexism.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 25 avril 2012 - 12:59 .

[Rubia Loca]

The heart symbol on the dialogue wheel made the romances feel a bit stale. I want to find out what a character likes through interaction, not a "say this for some loving" button.

[Dakota Strider]

Elves, I want a semi-normal female elf as a possible LI.  It is possible that there are some that would like some semi-normal male elf that is available as a LI, too.  Is it too much to ask for some elves that do not have some terrible hangups, or are social miscreants?

No Antivan elven assassin with a smarmy attitude.
No insecure, naive, practicioner of the dark arts, that cannot make a decision about anything, except that she will ignore everyone's advice about summoning demons.
No whiney, angst-ridden, ex-slave that has been infused with a toxic substance, that distrusts everyone openly.
No Qunari indoctrinated elven assassin that reminds me, each time I look at her, of a nerdy scientist on Eureka.

It would also be nice, if they went back to DAO in how they presented elves.  (Is it possible since we are seeing DA2 through Varric's eyes, he has an inborn dwarven prejudice against elves, so described all elves around Kirkwall as getting a daily beating with an ugly stick?)  Ariane from Witch Hunt was a great example of how a Dragon Age elf could be.  Would be nice to have her, or others like her in DA3.


More of this:   


 http://ts2.mm.bing.n...32cc9d2a5d7ca3 



Less of this:   



 http://ts4.mm.bing.n...10959603db0de72



And none of this please:   http://ts4.mm.bing.n...d2c24fcfffdf38b   http://ts3.mm.bing.n...84a04e4c42693   http://ts4.mm.bing.n...92a2be46dbcf4a2

So, not asking a lot.  Just normal acting, pleasant to look at elves, that do not make me feel I have been teleported to an alternate universe.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 25 avril 2012 - 01:18 .

[Dunquixote]

I liked marethari's model in DA 2, but all the other ones, I say no more please from the DA II.  I hope Cullen keeps his new model, not that I didn't like his old model. <3:wub:

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Maria Caliban wrote...

They do, and most games cater to that desire. Which is one of many reasons games are considered entertainment but not art.

It seems to be a huge theme in Bioware games in general, much more than most other games I have played.  I think Zaeed and Kasumi were two of  my favorite characters in the Mass Effect games because they were the only squadmates that DIDN'T worship the ground that Shepard walked on.

Modifié par Red by Full Metal Jacket, 25 avril 2012 - 02:14 .

[the_one_54321]

Maria Caliban wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
...sexist to men?

Things that don't exist:
Santa Claus
The Easter Bunny
Reverse Racism
Heterophobia
Sexism against men

If you want to talk about how gender roles negatively affect men and women, that's fine, but that's not the same as sexism.

Wow. That right there. That was sexist, and I don't appreciate it.

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
...sexist to men?

Things that don't exist:
Santa Claus
The Easter Bunny
Reverse Racism
Heterophobia
Sexism against men

If you want to talk about how gender roles negatively affect men and women, that's fine, but that's not the same as sexism.

Wow. That right there. That was sexist, and I don't appreciate it.

Yeah, I kind of agree. So I hope it was meant as a joke.

[Dakota Strider]

Avejajed wrote...

I want elves like Iorveth from Witcher2.

(Forgive the constant Witcher comments from me, I'm just starting to play it so it's fresh in my mind when talking about Dragon Age. I still DA best though.)

Some of the Witcher2 elves do look decent.  Although some of them look a bit too human.  However, I would prefer that they error on the side of making elves look too human, than to make them look like pixies, or those ugly things that were called elves in DA2.

If I were in charge of designing a game that included elves, I would use the descriptions of elves in the Tolkien books.  As tall, or taller than most humans.  Lean and lithe, but strong.  And of course, on average better looking than most humans.  Probably too late for Dragon Age to adopt that, although the DAO version was not real far from that, except for the height.