1536 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

I actually really liked that the elves in DA:O were so like humans and yet shorter. I thought it highlighted the fact that they've been subjugated by humans and by nature they tend to be so peace-loving that they're inclined to accept their chains. And yet, they're so similar to humans that humans are incredibly cruel for treating them like dogs.

Maybe I read too much into their appearance, but that's how I took it.

[SerTabris]

Rubia Loca wrote...

The heart symbol on the dialogue wheel made the romances feel a bit stale. I want to find out what a character likes through interaction, not a "say this for some loving" button.

Maybe the icon could indicate how the PC means it, rather than how the character will take it? Some of the flirt dialogue isn't exactly obvious from the paraphrase.

[Maria Caliban]

It is what the PC meant. Avaline and Merrill both don't get it.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Wow. That right there. That was sexist, and I don't appreciate it.

I don't care what you appreciate.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 25 avril 2012 - 05:42 .

[Dunquixote]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I actually really liked that the elves in DA:O were so like humans and yet shorter. I thought it highlighted the fact that they've been subjugated by humans and by nature they tend to be so peace-loving that they're inclined to accept their chains. And yet, they're so similar to humans that humans are incredibly cruel for treating them like dogs.

Maybe I read too much into their appearance, but that's how I took it.

Interesting...   I think I'll try paying attention more to the different models next time I play. No, you aren't reading too much into it.  I actually know what you mean, except  I look more at  the storyline, setting, with some other random observations I make; subconsciously though, I tend to mostly connect it to things I've learned from outside of the game.  I'll have take notes of things I think about in my next playthrough, when I'm not playing with a character I'm writing about lol.  I did that only once and that was for FFX.  But, that's a topic for elsewhere.  Anyways, great point.  

[SerTabris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It is what the PC meant. Avaline and Merrill both don't get it.

I don't know why I forgot that.

[esper]

David Gaider wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...
Hmm male/female. I just found the character felt out of place. I can't put my finger on it. But I wasn't convinced that she was part of the Dragon age world. Loved the series to death and loved that there was a DLC that ppl enjoyed. I just wasn't convinced. I don't know why. I love Felicia Day...Something felt off. Wish I had a better way to explain it.

I think it's because she's the first evidence of a Qunari that breaks out of the Sten mold-- namely humourless, gravelly-voiced giant. It would perhaps have been easier had the first character to do so also been a Kossith, but here we had a character that diverged from the perceived Qunari "norm" in a great many ways... thus some people look at that and think "well that's not a Qunari", when we say "there's more to the Qunari than what you've seen, or even what the Qunari themselves would like to believe."

Possibly people are conditioned to accept the "Star Trek" mold of aliens-- where every planet you visit has one dominant terrain and its aliens have one characteric that is true for every member of that race. Possibly just liked the idea of the Qunari being as utterly uniform as Sten proposed, and took him at his word... and why wouldn't you, until presented with evidence to the contrary? The difference here is that, when the contrary evidence was presented, some people chose to refute the character or the reasons for its existence.... as if us wanting Felicia Day to star in our game overrode all basic sense and convinced us to re-write our own setting just so we could do it. Which smacks of contempt in the same vein as the "Mary Sue" comment (one of those phrases which has practically lost all meaning from over-use), but what can you do?

Not that a male version of Tallis wouldn't have come with his own baggage-- but that's really the point, here.

I disliked Tallis because she:
1. Was a Qunari.
2. Was arrogant. I am sorry, but she was.
3. Liked snide at the other party members. I am attachted to my companions and I can honestly say I don't like characthers outside the group being rude to them. Inside the group is all right because they are part of the' family', but outide - not all right. I makes me dislike the characther.

But I will be fair to say that I disliked Sten too and never saw his appeal.

I do think that she had a Mary Sue-ish moment in getting away with that scroll for no reason when Hawke as standing right there and threating to kill her. I personally think that if you abandoded her in the cave she should just have run away with the scroll instead actually fighting alonside you. That would have made more sense. (And I really didn't need her to take Anders revival from me).

I also don't understand the difference in between cheerfully kill ten to twenty crows whose job it is to kill people and be all remorsefull over a guards dead whose job it is to prevent thieves in getting in. But that is a fair enough flaw that is in the human physche.

But I do agree that women are percieved differently and more unfair than men when it comes to characthers than men and that it is not fair. Yes, Mary Sue apllies to men too, but nobody apllies it so easily they apply it to men and that is the difference.

[Allan Schumacher]

Maybe the icon could indicate how the PC means it, rather than how the character will take it? Some of the flirt dialogue isn't exactly obvious from the paraphrase.

I think that this was always the intent of the icons (to indicate what the PC's intentions were). If people didn't feel that way maybe it wasn't communicated properly in the game?

[nightscrawl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Things that don't exist:
Santa Claus

[Pappi]

I think the icons should be taken away myself, they seemed almost like hand holding. I like the fact that dialogue choices means you have to READ and think for yourself what is the best thing to say, what sounds peaceful, or violent--etc. The icons kind of do the work for us, this is a romance-y thing to say, this sounds like an angry angry man thing to say!

It is the same problem with dialogue wheels, I know that up is nice, down is hardass, middle is netural. But I can live with it. I don't think we need the icons. If you must keep one, keep the FIGHTTTT ones obviously but I don't think we need the others. Make us work for it! (Or maybe have an option that removes them? Hummmmm).

Though the lil hearts are kind of cute I guess?

To get back on track....Nathaniel as a party member. THIS MUST HAPPEN. I don't care how. :3 Him dressed in black with THAT voice...ahhh. His mother must have been stunning because his dad was so ugly, har har.

Modifié par Pappi, 25 avril 2012 - 10:41 .

[Alyka]

Please bring back the option to kiss or "go to sleep" with the LI any time we wish.

[Wulfram]

One thing I would say is that I find it very difficult to accept the Qunari as a functioning society anyway.  The more human you try to make them, the less believable they become.

The only way I can see them existing is if they are all totally brainwashed into uniformity.  Otherwise, they'd collapse and schism pretty quickly.

edit:  I don't think people dislike characters who are religious.  They dislike characters who express a standard of morality which they disagree with, particularly if they dare to hold the PC to that standard.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 avril 2012 - 01:07 .

[ladyshamen]

I too would like more inter-action with my LI. Kissing them more than once would be a great start. Who else misses the camp? I miss just standing around and talking and getting to know the party members.
My romance wishes:
Cullen. First and foremost!
Nathaniel, I found him interesting and would like to see more.
Bann Teagan. I was so disappointed when I found out you could only flirt, but not romance him in DA:O.
Cassandra, She seems like she would make an interesting LI.
Varric, He's just too smooth.

[5trangeCase]

I'm not sure whether there would be logistical problems, but I'd say there's more "realism" in the main character romancing some people who aren't in his/her party.

But personally I'm not too concerned about the subject, I'd much prefer new characters though. My character in the hypothetical game would probably use one, but that's not a certainty. Also, I'd very much like to have a lie "I love you" option in the game. Because my Hawke did not love Merrill, and my Warden did not love Leliana, but they knew that was what they wanted to hear.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd prefer for people to actually have a sexual orientation. Or at least make it extremely difficult to get them to swing the other way to appease the people who think everyone is bisexual.

Modifié par 5trangeCase, 25 avril 2012 - 02:07 .

[berelinde]

Wulfram wrote...

edit:  I don't think people dislike characters who are religious.  They dislike characters who express a standard of morality which they disagree with, particularly if they dare to hold the PC to that standard.

It might be more accurate to say that people dislike characters who consider their personal values to be superior to those others possess, particularly if they seek to impose those values on the PC. The difference is subtle, but very, very important.

[David Gaider]

berelinde wrote...
It might be more accurate to say that people dislike characters who consider their personal values to be superior to those others possess, particularly if they seek to impose those values on the PC. The difference is subtle, but very, very important.

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. The only character so far who's felt this way was Sten. Characters like Leliana and Sebastian expressed their thoughts on religion/spirituality but rarely proselytized. In fact, Sebastian was written to go out of his way to be accommodating... and yet it seems that some people have an allergic reaction to even the mention of religious views, and will interpret them as proselytization even when they're not intended as such. Which is good to recognize, I think, and it means that characters that we intend to be broadly sympathetic shouldn't be religious.

Mind you, we don't need all characters to be sympathetic. Some players are just gonna get upset, yo. Let 'em.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 avril 2012 - 03:08 .

[Wulfram]

berelinde wrote...

It might be more accurate to say that people dislike characters who consider their personal values to be superior to those others possess, particularly if they seek to impose those values on the PC. The difference is subtle, but very, very important.

If you didn't think your values are superior to others, than why would you have those values?  If you're not prepared to stand up for them and argue for them, do you really have them?

I find NPCs in recent Bioware games far to doormattish about letting the PC get away with anything.  Though DA2 isn't as bad as Mass Effect.

edit:  I'd note that Wynne gets a fair amount of hate, despite not being religious.  Though quite a few people seem to think she is.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 avril 2012 - 03:15 .

[ladyshamen]

Well said Mr. Gaider! I think it makes a game more fun and interesting when you have a diverse group of people together. I don't have to agree with a characters viewpoint to want them in my party, or to have my character want to romance them.

[berelinde]

David Gaider wrote...
Characters like Leliana and Sebastian expressed their thoughts on religion/spirituality but rarely proselytized. In fact, Sebastian was written to go out of his way to be accommodating... and yet it seems that some people have an allergic reaction to even the mention of religious views, and will interpret them as proselytization even when they're not intended as such.

Hmm. Not saying you're wrong. You have access to telemetry data we don't have, as well as access to a wider spectrum of public opinion.

I'm not a Leliana fan, but it's got nothing to do with her religious beliefs. I'm allergic to "girly". Can't be helped, I'm afraid, and yes, I do realize that this dislike isn't necessarily rational. I liked Sebastian to a certain extent, but I had the same problem with him that I had with Bethany, and also with Cernd, back in the day. They're all a little too... bland, for lack of a better word. Varric is agreeable and accommodating, but he has a colorful personality to balance the sugar. 

In the end, I just protest accusations that players don't like characters because of religious beliefs when there are other reasons to dislike the characters.

[David Gaider]

Wulfram wrote...
edit:  I'd note that Wynne gets a fair amount of hate, despite not being religious.  Though quite a few people seem to think she is.

That's because any character that makes a suggestion is bossy. Any character that talks about themselves instead of asking about you or being concerned about your feelings is self-centered. Any character that even has problems is whiny (or emo, if they're male). Any character that gets angry about something is a jerk, and if they're objecting to something you did then they're even bigger jerks who deserve to have their heads cut off-- and good riddance.

I once came up with a theory that our most popular characters were those who supported the player unconditionally, and even wrote a character to be deliberately sycophantic just to see if I was right. Turned out I was. There are always exceptions, of course, but by and large players prefer followers who are agreeable, supportive and amusing... and any variation from that will provoke hate in varying degrees.

Which is not a reason to make all followers agreeable, supportive and amusing-- by any means. God, how boring would that be? But that's simply how it is. The PC in a video game is, by their nature, essentially a self-centered adolescent jerk.

[upsettingshorts]

You left out "any character that doesn't make a suggestion, talk about themselves, get angry about something you did, or have problems is boring."

e.g. The Jacob

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2012 - 03:39 .

[the_one_54321]

David Gaider wrote...
I once came up with a theory that our most popular characters were those who supported the player unconditionally, and even wrote a character to be deliberately sycophantic just to see if I was right. Turned out I was. There are always exceptions, of course, but by and large players prefer followers who are agreeable, supportive and amusing... and any variation from that will provoke hate in varying degrees.

Which is not a reason to make all followers agreeable, supportive and amusing-- by any means. God, how boring would that be? But that's simply how it is. The PC in a video game is, by their nature, essentially a self-centered adolescent jerk.

Win. :happy:

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
I once came up with a theory that our most popular characters were those who supported the player unconditionally, and even wrote a character to be deliberately sycophantic just to see if I was right. Turned out I was. There are always exceptions, of course, but by and large players prefer followers who are agreeable, supportive and amusing... and any variation from that will provoke hate in varying degrees.

Exception:

[chuckwells62]

I would have enjoyed having the option of romancing NPC characters, wholly separate from party members, in order to really focus on building that romance in a non-combat setting (mostly between quests; but with occasional tension created by the story events lending weight to this relationship). As a guy, I thought that it would have been great fun to woo any of the following DA2 characters: Arianni, Athenril, Lady Elegant, Macha, Norah, Ruvena, or Mistress Selby.

Modifié par chuckwells62, 25 avril 2012 - 04:15 .

[R2s Muse]

David Gaider wrote...

berelinde wrote...
It might be more accurate to say that people dislike characters who consider their personal values to be superior to those others possess, particularly if they seek to impose those values on the PC. The difference is subtle, but very, very important.

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. The only character so far who's felt this way was Sten. Characters like Leliana and Sebastian expressed their thoughts on religion/spirituality but rarely proselytized. In fact, Sebastian was written to go out of his way to be accommodating... and yet it seems that some people have an allergic reaction to even the mention of religious views, and will interpret them as proselytization even when they're not intended as such. Which is good to recognize, I think, and it means that characters that we intend to be broadly sympathetic shouldn't be religious.

Mind you, we don't need all characters to be sympathetic. Some players are just gonna get upset, yo. Let 'em.

Ah, thank you for pointing this out about Sebastian. It makes me so sad whenever people say that Sebastian prosthelytizes, since I found him to be rather open minded and accommodating. I love his conversations with Fenris and found it interesting that he even tried to find room for both Merrill's creators and the Maker within his worldview.

Which reminds me of something I did really like... the mini-relationships between the companions were fun. Of course, sometimes I felt like they got to talk to each other more than me (I know, not technically true). But it was a nice extra dimension to the world to imagine that the characters were all existing in it even when Hawke wasn't around. I especially liked the Fenris-Seb and Aveline-Isabela friendships, altho not so much the Fenris-Isabela relationship since it seemed illogical to me that he'd start regularly sleeping with someone after being unable to do so with Hawke (regardless of whether I'd taken up with Anders after he dumped me...).