1536 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Blood magic is considered evil because it

A. Is learned from demons
B. Has historically used the lifeblood of innocent slaves to power spells
C. Was used to reach the Golden City, which resulted in the first darkspawn
D. Gives one the power of mind domination
E. Is Forbidden by the Chantry
F. Makes one a likely candidate for possession
G. Is incredibly, incredibly powerful and deserving of fear

so... those who see blood magic as evil aren't to be mistaken for fools.

[Dunquixote]

I know; very true.   At the same time, as I said before, intent should also be taken into consideration, with Jowan as the exception. He's just naive, same with Merrill (Merrill probably more so).  I wonder though--I haven't played the DLC yet (but I've watched my fiance play it--well, I watched some of the gameplay), would that have made Hawke's dad "evil" since he used blood magic (unless I misread it on the wiki) to seal that magister?

Modifié par Dunquixote, 25 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[ladyshamen]

slyborg, some of us gamers ARE the parents. Although my son, who's 14, say's I'm a cool Mom. Some people don't like being told what to do no matter their age. And I liked Merrill. Just as in RL, you CAN make bad choices with the best of intentions.

[LobselVith8]

CommanderJessica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see blood magic as evil. Duncan also pointed out that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

I think blood magic is evil when a demon is involved. I think in the codex it said that a deal with a demon isn't necessary to perform blood magic.

The Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he thinks she's an Orlesian mage, so it doesn't seem to require a demon to teach it if a mage expects another mage to teach him.

CommanderJessica wrote...

Merrill is stupid because she did make a deal to learn more about her people's past and thought she was clever enough to outwit it and it cost her Keeper's life (and possibly as a consequence, her clan).

Merrill, apparently, made no "deal" with Audacity because Audacity was still trapped in the totem for several years. What Merrill learned about was blood magic, because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with standard magic. She worked on the Eluvian for years on her own. After a few years, she considered communicating with Audacity to see what she was missing in her attempts to complete an Eluvian. She also makes it clear that she has no intention of releasing Audacity.

Also, Merrill isn't responsible for Marethari's actions, especially the one in Act III. Marethari was a grown woman who made a choice that endangered her entire clan. I don't see why people blame Merrill for Marethari's actions. Merrill did research and had an theory about the potential of the Eluvian, while Marethari voiced opinions that seemed to come strictly from her own assumptions.

CommanderJessica wrote...

That said, I wouldn't mind a blood mage or a demon-deal-maker in my party, just as I wouldn't mind a Templar.
I want both sides of the Templar/Mage war in my party and onside in DA3.
It'd make for interesting conflict.

I agree that the inclusion of a templar and a mage companion could be interesting, but I think a pro-templar protagonist should have the right to refuse aid from a mage companion, just as much as a pro-mage protagonist should have the right to refuse aid from a templar companion. No different than The Warden having the right to refuse Wynne, Zevran, or Sten as companions.

[Dunquixote]

lob:  I thought the baroness was a pride demon, or was that only outside of the Fade?
At the same time, I can't blame Marethari, though yes, she should've not just thought of Merrill's well-being but her clan's safety as well, for wanting to protect Merrill.  I'm not sure if this sounds contradictory of me to say that maybe the right thing for her to do, regardless how much she "liked" Merrill, was to let Merrill learn and face the consequences from her actions, otherwise she'd never learn from her mistakes and remain naive and continue making similar mistakes.

ladyshaman: That's another interesting concept that I find in a lot of games, and it is something that is commonly misunderstood, which I can understand, sometimes being the one guilty of misunderstanding it myself.

Modifié par Dunquixote, 25 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[brushyourteeth]

Dunquixote wrote...

I know; very true.   At the same time, as I said before, intent should also be taken into consideration, with Jowan as the exception. He's just naive, same with Merrill (Merrill probably more so).  I wonder though--I haven't played the DLC yet (but I've watched my fiance play it--well, I watched some of the gameplay), would that have made Hawke's dad "evil" since he used blood magic (unless I misread it on the wiki) to seal that magister?

exactly - I think this is an excellent point. It's my opinion that while

Blood magic is evil
Blood mages aren't necessarily evil

[the_one_54321]

The only thing Merril is guilty of is being monumentally stupid. But sometimes, that's enough.

[Arppis]

"One night stands". And being able to do that with every possible "romance" character in one playtrough!

Because it's something Bioware hasn't done since DA:0. Might get your disrespect, but it'd be funny.

Modifié par Arppis, 25 avril 2012 - 07:16 .

[Dunquixote]

I don't think she's stupid. She's just naive. I can see she has intelligence, but often makes almost fatal mistakes for wanting to only accept what she wants to be the truth. She rather take action before taking in consideration. Yes, that can be considered as stupidity, but as a whole, that doesn't make her stupid. I'm not trying to defend her for what she did. There's just a difference between being naive and stupid, which is a pretty common mistake to make.

[rapscallioness]

David Gaider wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
I hope Tallis doesn't come back, it's not that she's a bad character or anything but we've had her in DA2 and she's got her own web series... There's such thing as an overload and for my personally it would feel like she was being forced down our throats.

And I've been left with the impression that, had Tallis been a male character, there'd be far more swooning and talk of how he needs to return as a full romance, etc. etc., from... certain corners of the fanbase.

Meh. Tallis was alright, but for me one thing I didn't like was the way her face was drawn, or graphics..or whatever you want to call it. Her face looked weird and out of place with the graphics of the other characters. And unnatuarally bright.....I...

She played my Hawke for a chump. Nobody likes that. Although, I ended up helping her---because I wanted to. I found out later the player really had no choice. So, meh.

Also, yet another elf. Sheesh. I'm about burnt on elves. It would have been cool to have a female "Qunari" (I realize Qunari is a religion and not a race, but you know what I mean).

So, Tallis was alright. She was fun enough. But I didn't find her personal story all that intriguing as far as how it played into the story of DA2 itself.

It was cool the way she disagreed with my "swords for everyone" Hawke. I can respect that. She wasn't an azz about it. So, that was fine. But I have no burning desire to see her in DA3. Swooning, or no swooning.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Blood magic is considered evil because it

A. Is learned from demons

The Orlesian Warden mage can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he thinks she is simply an Orlesian mage. Apparently, you don't need a demon to learn it if a mage expects to be taught by another mage.

brushyourteeth wrote...

B. Has historically used the lifeblood of innocent slaves to power spells

Duncan addressed that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the threatest threat to Thedas - the darkspawn. Also, the Joining can be considered blood magic. We also see Finn use a blood magic ritual to locate an Eluvian, and no one was killed to power the spell.

brushyourteeth wrote...

C. Was used to reach the Golden City, which resulted in the first darkspawn

According to Legacy, it wasn't Golden when the Magisters got there. Considering that the Joining is responsible for keeping the world intact from the Archdemons, I really don't see why it's considered evil. It's all due to how it's applied.

brushyourteeth wrote...

D. Gives one the power of mind domination

That would have been useful to stop Vaughan from abducting women out of the Alienage.

brushyourteeth wrote...

E. Is Forbidden by the Chantry

It's not forbidden by the Grey Wardens.

brushyourteeth wrote...

F. Makes one a likely candidate for possession

If one is reckless about demonology by summoning too many demons, then you get Uldred. Being a blood mage doesn't automatically mean you're going to be possessed. Mages deal with the threat because they can enter the Fade awake, and that draws the attention of the denizens of the Fade.

brushyourteeth wrote...

G. Is incredibly, incredibly powerful and deserving of fear

so... those who see blood magic as evil aren't to be mistaken for fools.

I get that there are people who are afraid of blood magic, but I've never bought into the idea that it's the dark side of the Force. It can be misused, but so can virtually anything that has the power to kill someone.

[Jessihatt]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, Merrill isn't responsible for Marethari's actions, especially the one in Act III. Marethari was a grown woman who made a choice that endangered her entire clan. I don't see why people blame Merrill for Marethari's actions. Merrill did research and had an theory about the potential of the Eluvian, while Marethari voiced opinions that seemed to come strictly from her own assumptions.

I agree that the inclusion of a templar and a mage companion could be interesting, but I think a pro-templar protagonist should have the right to refuse aid from a mage companion, just as much as a pro-mage protagonist should have the right to refuse aid from a templar companion. No different than The Warden having the right to refuse Wynne, Zevran, or Sten as companions.

Marethari did it to protect Merrill, who she loved as a daughter. I'm not saying the Keeper wasn't foolish aswell  because I think she was. But Merrill was taught blood magic by the Pride Demon and knew the consequences - should have known that it wouldn't necessarily target her but could harm anyone. Everyone knows not to trust demons (and spirits too after the whole Anders/Justice kerfuffle)!

I agree that in DA3 the protagonist should have the right to refuse (or kill) anyone in their way or who doesn't believe in their cause, or to remain as neutral as possible and accept everyone into the party if they so choose.

[Xewaka]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe the icon could indicate how the PC means it, rather than how the character will take it? Some of the flirt dialogue isn't exactly obvious from the paraphrase.

I think that this was always the intent of the icons (to indicate what the PC's intentions were). If people didn't feel that way maybe it wasn't communicated properly in the game?

The game dialogue interface (paraphrasing) was terrible at communicating its results to the player at pretty much every level. Having the paraphrase/icon saying one thing and the character do something completely unrelated, if not directly opposing it, was the norm.

Modifié par Xewaka, 25 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Dunquixote wrote...

lob:  I thought the baroness was a pride demon, or was that only outside of the Fade?

The Orlesian Warden doesn't know that until he leaves the Fade. When he asks to be taught blood magic, he expects to be taught from another mage. He doesn't realize she has become a demon until he returns to the real world, and is told by Justice.

Dunquixote wrote...

At the same time, I can't blame Marethari, though yes, she should've not just thought of Merrill's well-being but her clan's safety as well, for wanting to protect Merrill.  I'm not sure if this sounds contradictory of me to say that maybe the right thing for her to do, regardless how much she "liked" Merrill, was to let Merrill learn and face the consequences from her actions, otherwise she'd never learn from her mistakes and remain naive and continue making similar mistakes.

I don't see Merrill as naive. Yes, she has culture shock about human culture - because she's Dalish. But having an opinion that differs from your own doesn't make her naive. It simply means she has an opinion.

In my opinion, I liked how proactive Merrill was about helping the People. The Dalish simply hope to stumble upon some answer, while Merrill got off her butt and actually did something about the plight of the Dalish. Maybe she was wrong, maybe she was right - we will never know. But I liked that she was doing something to try to help them.

[twincast]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Things that don't exist:
Reverse Racism
Heterophobia
Sexism against men

If you want to talk about how gender roles negatively affect men and women, that's fine, but that's not the same as sexism.

Jeez, of course they are dwarved by their respective counterparts, but not every -ism has to be on a societywide scale to exist, you know. You don't get to decide the meaning of established terms, thank you very much.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
But having an opinion that differs from your own doesn't make her naive. It simply means she has an opinion.

Perhaps, but in this case it's an incredibly stupid opinion.

[LobselVith8]

CommanderJessica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, Merrill isn't responsible for Marethari's actions, especially the one in Act III. Marethari was a grown woman who made a choice that endangered her entire clan. I don't see why people blame Merrill for Marethari's actions. Merrill did research and had an theory about the potential of the Eluvian, while Marethari voiced opinions that seemed to come strictly from her own assumptions.

I agree that the inclusion of a templar and a mage companion could be interesting, but I think a pro-templar protagonist should have the right to refuse aid from a mage companion, just as much as a pro-mage protagonist should have the right to refuse aid from a templar companion. No different than The Warden having the right to refuse Wynne, Zevran, or Sten as companions.

Marethari did it to protect Merrill, who she loved as a daughter. I'm not saying the Keeper wasn't foolish aswell  because I think she was. But Merrill was taught blood magic by the Pride Demon and knew the consequences - should have known that it wouldn't necessarily target her but could harm anyone. Everyone knows not to trust demons (and spirits too after the whole Anders/Justice kerfuffle)!

I agree that in DA3 the protagonist should have the right to refuse (or kill) anyone in their way or who doesn't believe in their cause, or to remain as neutral as possible and accept everyone into the party if they so choose.

Merrill knew how dangerous the denizens of the Fade could be:

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill knew how dangerous the denizens of the Fade could be:

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

It kind of makes her choices that much monumentally stupid.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The only thing Merril is guilty of is being monumentally stupid. But sometimes, that's enough.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think Merrill was stupid when she bothered to do the actual research - as Gaider once noted, she extrapolated information from the shard and researched the lore on the Eluvian. Marethari's counte-argument seems to come from her assumptions about what their ancestors wanted, and then changes to something entirely different that she should have no way of possibly knowing. Merrill, in contrast, did the research and came to a conclusion, and she had pursued it through attempting to build an Eluvian. Maybe she was right, or maybe she was wrong, but if she was correct, then it could have benefited the People.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

But having an opinion that differs from your own doesn't make her naive. It simply means she has an opinion.

Perhaps, but in this case it's an incredibly stupid opinion.

Thinking that advanced technology could irrevocably change the lives of a group of people is stupid? I guess someone needs to change the history books.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Thinking that advanced technology could irrevocably change the lives of a group of people is stupid? I guess someone needs to change the history books.

Deliberately working through a medium that you are aware will intentionally attempt to corrupt everything you do is, without exception, incredibly stupid.

[Dunquixote]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...

lob:  I thought the baroness was a pride demon, or was that only outside of the Fade?

The Orlesian Warden doesn't know that until he leaves the Fade. When he asks to be taught blood magic, he expects to be taught from another mage. He doesn't realize she has become a demon until he returns to the real world, and is told by Justice.

Dunquixote wrote...

At the same time, I can't blame Marethari, though yes, she should've not just thought of Merrill's well-being but her clan's safety as well, for wanting to protect Merrill.  I'm not sure if this sounds contradictory of me to say that maybe the right thing for her to do, regardless how much she "liked" Merrill, was to let Merrill learn and face the consequences from her actions, otherwise she'd never learn from her mistakes and remain naive and continue making similar mistakes.

I don't see Merrill as naive. Yes, she has culture shock about human culture - because she's Dalish. But having an opinion that differs from your own doesn't make her naive. It simply means she has an opinion.

In my opinion, I liked how proactive Merrill was about helping the People. The Dalish simply hope to stumble upon some answer, while Merrill got off her butt and actually did something about the plight of the Dalish. Maybe she was wrong, maybe she was right - we will never know. But I liked that she was doing something to try to help them.

I see your point.  Maybe she isn't naive as I thought she was, but, taking what you said into consideration, however, I can't help but wonder: does she try to even believe or understand the differences in her culture from her human culture?  Or another question: does she accept what she sees or look beyond that and question whether or not that is actually the truth or not?  Or if she accepts things just as it is if not completely ignore everything and not try to understand it, and base her opinion on what little knowledge she does grasp?  To me, I see some sense of naitivity (of course, you can argue that's just apathy and has nothing to do with being naive) with a mixture of misunderstanding, apathy (not towards her Dalish culture), and ignorance. 

And I do agree with you that it is admirable that she did become active in helping the Dalish regain some knowledge of what they had lost. 

I wonder: was the demon that was in the mirror what had seized Tamlen in the Dalish origins?  Or was it just darkspawn taint that got to him?  I never quite had a grasp what exactly happened, even though I know he became a shriek.

[SamaraDraven]

Merrill said that the demon told her how to cleanse the Eluvian and that was why she wanted to go back there, to see if she could learn what to do to finish the mirror. I wish the option to refuse to help Merrill was honored in the game. You can say no to her but then the next time you go to Sundermount, the game hijacks you back to the character selection screen and Merrill is locked as a companion. You can't not do her quest and that bugs me. I want choices that really matter. Maybe a Merrill abomination would have been the consequence for refusing to help her and freeing her would be the counter-point quest to what happened. But they did that for Feynriel instead.

But since this is a Companion and Romance wishlist for DA3 and I haven't offered my wants, I'll say that I'm in the Cullen camp. I'd like to see his story developed. As an LI would be great, as a non-LI companion or NPC would be awesome too. Though he could either be an amazing addition or horrible. What I think would be cool, is to run across a group of bards or performers of some kind, kind of like how Bodahn, Sandal and Lev joined the Warden's camp. I think it could be a fun aspect. I also like Cassandra. I'd love to see her again too.

[Dunquixote]

With no Knight-Commander now without Meredith, unless there's a higher rank than Knight-Captain, I wouldn't be surprised if he was made Knight-Commander; but if that's so, he'd remain a npc, right?

Of course, I'd prefer him as a companion and LI, but only for my Warden if she'll ever return...

Modifié par Dunquixote, 25 avril 2012 - 07:39 .

[brushyourteeth]

*sigh* okay..

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

Blood magic is considered evil because it

A. Is learned from demons

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Orlesian Warden mage can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he thinks she is simply an Orlesian mage. Apparently, you don't need a demon to learn it if a mage expects to be taught by another mage.[/quote].[/quote]

True... maybe (though the Baroness was arguably actually a demon). Blood magic originated from demons, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't learn it from a mage who learned it from a mage who learned it from a mage, etc. who once upon a time learned it from a demon. And demons are bad. Please don't argue with that -- I'll lose all respect for you and I would hate for that to happen.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

B. Has historically used the lifeblood of innocent slaves to power spells

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Duncan addressed that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the threatest threat to Thedas - the darkspawn. Also, the Joining can be considered blood magic. We also see Finn use a blood magic ritual to locate an Eluvian, and no one was killed to power the spell.[/quote].[/quote]

No argument there! Though I doubt the Joining involves traditional blood magic, as it's the Circle mages that prepare it. It's definitely magic that involves blood.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

C. Was used to reach the Golden City, which resulted in the first darkspawn

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
According to Legacy, it wasn't Golden when the Magisters got there. Considering that the Joining is responsible for keeping the world intact from the Archdemons, I really don't see why it's considered evil. It's all due to how it's applied.[/quote].[/quote]

According to the legends we have regarding the Golden City (and that's really all the information we have on it) it was un-goldened when the magisters entered it. So it wouldn't be golden when they got there. Most of the world doesn't know about the joining, and just because blood magic can be useful doesn't mean it isn't evil.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

D. Gives one the power of mind domination

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
That would have been useful to stop Vaughan from abducting women out of the Alienage. [/quote].[/quote]

True, but you're on the dangerous grounds of "any means to an end" there.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

E. Is Forbidden by the Chantry

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not forbidden by the Grey Wardens. [/quote].[/quote]

Truth!

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

F. Makes one a likely candidate for possession

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If one is reckless about demonology by summoning too many demons, then you get Uldred. Being a blood mage doesn't automatically mean you're going to be possessed. Mages deal with the threat because they can enter the Fade awake, and that draws the attention of the denizens of the Fade.[/quote].[/quote]

It's true that blood magic doesn't necessarily mean possession. But I said it makes you a likely candidate. If you're not sure about that, the codex should help you out.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

G. Is incredibly, incredibly powerful and deserving of fear

so... those who see blood magic as evil aren't to be mistaken for fools.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I get that there are people who are afraid of blood magic, but I've never bought into the idea that it's the dark side of the Force. It can be misused, but so can virtually anything that has the power to kill someone.[/quote].[/quote]

Well, if you read your opinions throughout the whole of this post compared to mind, it totally makes sense why we both feel that way. Agree to disagree!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 25 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Thinking that advanced technology could irrevocably change the lives of a group of people is stupid? I guess someone needs to change the history books.

Deliberately working through a medium that you are aware will intentionally attempt to corrupt everything you do is, without exception, incredibly stupid.

The Warden can do the same thing in dealing with the Desire Demon controlling Connor by dealing with a denizen of the Fade that is intentionally going to try to outwit him, and unlike the case with Audacity, the Desire Demon isn't trapped in the real world in a totem. It seems like Audacity got exactly what it wanted when Marethari did her thing in Act III, which may have been the entire point.