1536 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Dunquixote wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see Merrill as naive. Yes, she has culture shock about human culture - because she's Dalish. But having an opinion that differs from your own doesn't make her naive. It simply means she has an opinion.

In my opinion, I liked how proactive Merrill was about helping the People. The Dalish simply hope to stumble upon some answer, while Merrill got off her butt and actually did something about the plight of the Dalish. Maybe she was wrong, maybe she was right - we will never know. But I liked that she was doing something to try to help them.

I see your point.  Maybe she isn't naive as I thought she was, but, taking what you said into consideration, however, I can't help but wonder: does she try to even believe or understand the differences in her culture from her human culture?  Or another question: does she accept what she sees or look beyond that and question whether or not that is actually the truth or not?  Or if she accepts things just as it is if not completely ignore everything and not try to understand it, and base her opinion on what little knowledge she does grasp?  To me, I see some sense of naitivity (of course, you can argue that's just apathy and has nothing to do with being naive) with a mixture of misunderstanding, apathy (not towards her Dalish culture), and ignorance. 

I think Merrill's sarcasm hides a lot - if she returns to the Dalish camp in Act I and talks about the Alienage, you get a glimpse of this. Or the contrast between her talk about Ser Pounce-A-Lot to Anders, and her talk with Bethany about "Feathers." I think the writers tend to play up the fish out of water a bit too much, though, as I'd rather explore the very questions you asked.

Dunquixote wrote...

And I do agree with you that it is admirable that she did become active in helping the Dalish regain some knowledge of what they had lost. 

I wonder: was the demon that was in the mirror what had seized Tamlen in the Dalish origins?  Or was it just darkspawn taint that got to him?  I never quite had a grasp what exactly happened, even though I know he became a shriek.

Tamlen was tainted after seeing an underground city, like the corrupted elves are in Witch Hunt by the remaining shards of the Eluvian that were left there. Merrill specifically cleansed the shard to remove the taint that had corrupted the Eluvian. The demon Audacity is in a totem in Sundermount, trapped for centuries.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Thinking that advanced technology could irrevocably change the lives of a group of people is stupid? I guess someone needs to change the history books.

Deliberately working through a medium that you are aware will intentionally attempt to corrupt everything you do is, without exception, incredibly stupid.

The Warden can do the same thing in dealing with the Desire Demon controlling Connor by dealing with a denizen of the Fade that is intentionally going to try to outwit him, and unlike the case with Audacity, the Desire Demon isn't trapped in the real world in a totem. It seems like Audacity got exactly what it wanted when Marethari did her thing in Act III, which may have been the entire point.

Making a deal with the Desire demon in Connor is openly corrupt. It's kind of a different situation.

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. The only character so far who's felt this way was Sten. Characters like Leliana and Sebastian expressed their thoughts on religion/spirituality but rarely proselytized. In fact, Sebastian was written to go out of his way to be accommodating... and yet it seems that some people have an allergic reaction to even the mention of religious views, and will interpret them as proselytization even when they're not intended as such. Which is good to recognize, I think, and it means that characters that we intend to be broadly sympathetic shouldn't be religious.

Why do you think that is?

Actually, I think Thane is an exception to this. I don't recall anyone complaining about his religion or the small prayer Shepard participates in.

[Dunquixote]

Thank you for the clarification.

I admit, sarcasm and even certain types of humor is my weak points; I have difficulty discerning or distinguishing it from more serious tones even with the particular way each character uses to articulate the sarcastic tone of voice.

[LolaLei]

That's actually an interesting question MC.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Orlesian Warden mage can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic when he thinks she is simply an Orlesian mage. Apparently, you don't need a demon to learn it if a mage expects to be taught by another mage.[/quote].

True... maybe (though the Baroness was arguably actually a demon). Blood magic originated from demons, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't learn it from a mage who learned it from a mage who learned it from a mage, etc. who once upon a time learned it from a demon. And demons are bad. Please don't argue with that -- I'll lose all respect for you and I would hate for that to happen.  [/quote]

Actually, Tevinter teaches that Dumat taught the Magisters blood magic, and some scholars debate that the Arlathan elves taught the Magisters blood magic. Merrill makes some comments that suggest that blood magic is old magic. I don't disagree that the denizens of the Fade can be dangerous.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Duncan addressed that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the threatest threat to Thedas - the darkspawn. Also, the Joining can be considered blood magic. We also see Finn use a blood magic ritual to locate an Eluvian, and no one was killed to power the spell.[/quote]

No argument there! Though I doubt the Joining involves traditional blood magic, as it's the Circle mages that prepare it. It's definitely magic that involves blood. [/quote]

The phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic as well, according to Gaider at PAX.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

According to Legacy, it wasn't Golden when the Magisters got there. Considering that the Joining is responsible for keeping the world intact from the Archdemons, I really don't see why it's considered evil. It's all due to how it's applied.[/quote]

According to the legends we have regarding the Golden City (and that's really all the information we have on it) it was un-goldened when the magisters entered it. So it wouldn't be golden when they got there. Most of the world doesn't know about the joining, and just because blood magic can be useful doesn't mean it isn't evil. [/quote]

I don't see how it's automatically evil simply because people can use it for vile means. Is a weapon evil simply because it can be used for malevolent purposes?

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That would have been useful to stop Vaughan from abducting women out of the Alienage. [/quote].

True, but you're on the dangerous grounds of "any means to an end" there. [/quote]

If it stops rapists like Vaguahn from assaulting women, that's a moral line I'm willing to cross.

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If one is reckless about demonology by summoning too many demons, then you get Uldred. Being a blood mage doesn't automatically mean you're going to be possessed. Mages deal with the threat because they can enter the Fade awake, and that draws the attention of the denizens of the Fade.[/quote].

It's true that blood magic doesn't necessarily mean possession. But I said it makes you a likely candidate. If you're not sure about that, the codex should help you out.  [/quote]

It's also said to be a form of magic that some mages turn to because it's the only school of magic they see as free:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

And considering that templars can nullify ordinary magic, it makes sense that some mages would turn to blood magic, as the codex addresses:

"Known as 'maleficarum,' blood mages are feared not only for the incredible power of their spells, but also their ability to control minds. Templars hunt blood mages relentlessly, yet despite their efforts, Kirkwall sees more instances of blood magic with each passing year. Some whisper that the Order's relentless hunt has driven good intentioned apostates to blood magic in their desperation to survive and keep their freedom."

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I get that there are people who are afraid of blood magic, but I've never bought into the idea that it's the dark side of the Force. It can be misused, but so can virtually anything that has the power to kill someone.[/quote].

Well, if you read your opinions throughout the whole of this post compared to mind, it totally makes sense why we both feel that way. Agree to disagree!  [/quote]

It was nice discussing with you, even though we don't agree about it. Agree to disagree!

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 avril 2012 - 07:59 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


The phylacteries can be viewed as a form of blood magic as well, according to Gaider at PAX.

In one of his more recent interviews, he said that they are definitely blood magic.

[Tenshi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. The only character so far who's felt this way was Sten. Characters like Leliana and Sebastian expressed their thoughts on religion/spirituality but rarely proselytized. In fact, Sebastian was written to go out of his way to be accommodating... and yet it seems that some people have an allergic reaction to even the mention of religious views, and will interpret them as proselytization even when they're not intended as such. Which is good to recognize, I think, and it means that characters that we intend to be broadly sympathetic shouldn't be religious.

Why do you think that is?

Actually, I think Thane is an exception to this. I don't recall anyone complaining about his religion or the small prayer Shepard participates in.

thane is badazz cliche assasin, of course masses will love him.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can do the same thing in dealing with the Desire Demon controlling Connor by dealing with a denizen of the Fade that is intentionally going to try to outwit him, and unlike the case with Audacity, the Desire Demon isn't trapped in the real world in a totem. It seems like Audacity got exactly what it wanted when Marethari did her thing in Act III, which may have been the entire point.

Making a deal with the Desire demon in Connor is openly corrupt. It's kind of a different situation.

The Warden can keep Connor free of the demon and learn specialized blood magic. If it helps in the effort to defeat the Fifth Blight, I don't see it as "corrupt."

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Well, if you read your opinions throughout the whole of this post compared to mind, it totally makes sense why we both feel that way. Agree to disagree!  

It was nice discussing with you, even though we don't agree about it. Agree to disagree!

Aw, I love this!

[Maria Caliban]

BobSmith101 wrote...

You have two kinds of player.

Those who want the world to reflect their fantasy
Those who want the world to be important in it's own right.

Most players are a combination of both. I'd even go so far as to suggest that all players are a combination of these things.

LolaLei wrote...

That's actually an interesting question MC.

Thank you. Do you have any thoughts on the matter?

[LolaLei]

It's a tough one, maybe because it's literally an Alien culture that people know so little about? Where as the Maker etc is very similar to Christianity/Catholicism? As for the Qunari beliefs, I haven't seen quite so much hate for it, again maybe because it's originally a non-human religion?

[brushyourteeth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. The only character so far who's felt this way was Sten. Characters like Leliana and Sebastian expressed their thoughts on religion/spirituality but rarely proselytized. In fact, Sebastian was written to go out of his way to be accommodating... and yet it seems that some people have an allergic reaction to even the mention of religious views, and will interpret them as proselytization even when they're not intended as such. Which is good to recognize, I think, and it means that characters that we intend to be broadly sympathetic shouldn't be religious.

Why do you think that is?

Actually, I think Thane is an exception to this. I don't recall anyone complaining about his religion or the small prayer Shepard participates in.

MC, I know you wanted DG's two-cents on this (I do too) but at least as far as the prayer goes, I don't think it would matter who the character was or what religion they practiced -- if they were dying, I'm guessing most people wouldn't mind a prayer in their last moments. It's hard to be intolerant when someone is breathing their last.

Thane also rarely spoke about his religion. Just once or twice (enough to tell us about the original drell religion) and then we saw him meditating just about every time he wasn't killing something. If I had to come up with a few words to describe Thane, I would have chosen "thoughtful" or "introspective" and someone would have had to remind me that he was religious.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden can do the same thing in dealing with the Desire Demon controlling Connor by dealing with a denizen of the Fade that is intentionally going to try to outwit him, and unlike the case with Audacity, the Desire Demon isn't trapped in the real world in a totem. It seems like Audacity got exactly what it wanted when Marethari did her thing in Act III, which may have been the entire point.

Making a deal with the Desire demon in Connor is openly corrupt. It's kind of a different situation.

The Warden can keep Connor free of the demon and learn specialized blood magic. If it helps in the effort to defeat the Fifth Blight, I don't see it as "corrupt."

This is misleading. The Warden is well aware that the demon will come retake Connor at a later time.

[Jessihatt]

LolaLei wrote...

It's a tough one, maybe because it's literally an Alien culture that people know so little about? Where as the Maker etc is very similar to Christianity/Catholicism? As for the Qunari beliefs, I haven't seen quite so much hate for it, again maybe because it's originally a non-human religion?

I think the Qun seems quite sadistic and oppressive.
The fact that they leash their mages and sew their mouths shut is quite barbaric! And that they have no choice in what they do in life.
So many things are disturbing about their beliefs!
Isn't there a breeding programme or something for Qunari? That they don't believe in love, and the children are raised by their priests?

[the_one_54321]

CommanderJessica wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
It's a tough one, maybe because it's literally an Alien culture that people know so little about? Where as the Maker etc is very similar to Christianity/Catholicism? As for the Qunari beliefs, I haven't seen quite so much hate for it, again maybe because it's originally a non-human religion?

I think the Qun seems quite sadistic and oppressive.
The fact that they leash their mages and sew their mouths shut is quite barbaric! And that they have no choice in what they do in life.
So many things are disturbing about their beliefs!
Isn't there a breeding programme or something for Qunari? That they don't believe in love, and the children are raised by their priests?

Imagine that bees were sentient, communicative creatures. Now explain to one that it's beehive society structure is wrong.

[Jessihatt]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
It's a tough one, maybe because it's literally an Alien culture that people know so little about? Where as the Maker etc is very similar to Christianity/Catholicism? As for the Qunari beliefs, I haven't seen quite so much hate for it, again maybe because it's originally a non-human religion?

I think the Qun seems quite sadistic and oppressive.
The fact that they leash their mages and sew their mouths shut is quite barbaric! And that they have no choice in what they do in life.
So many things are disturbing about their beliefs!
Isn't there a breeding programme or something for Qunari? That they don't believe in love, and the children are raised by their priests?

Imagine that bees were sentient, communicative creatures. Now explain to one that it's beehive society structure is wrong.

I don't know much about bees, so I can't really comment on that..
But I get what you're saying.

As long as the bees didn't invade foreign lands and slaughter those who didn't submit or those who chose to leave that beehive society fair enough.

The Qunari remind me of Vikings more than bees.

[Melca36]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There should be a slap Alistair mod.

You know, with like a rolled-up newspaper or something.

BAD ALISTAIR, BAD

Can we have a slap Fenris one too?

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why do you think that is?

Actually, I think Thane is an exception to this. I don't recall anyone complaining about his religion or the small prayer Shepard participates in.

I don't know if this counts as his religion, but I really really hate his philosophy, with the whole "Oh, it was just my body which did it, not my soul" stuff.

Though I'd theorise it's mostly monotheistic pseudo-christian religions which provoke complaints, probably because they push real world buttons.  Polytheistic ones have different effects, because we don't get people knocking on our doors telling us about Zeus.

[TEWR]

Melca36 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There should be a slap Alistair mod.

You know, with like a rolled-up newspaper or something.

BAD ALISTAIR, BAD

Can we have a slap Fenris one too?

We're gonna need a Slap Isabela mod too.

But we won't be slapping her face

[the_one_54321]

CommanderJessica wrote...
As long as the bees didn't invade foreign lands and slaughter those who didn't submit or those who chose to leave that beehive society fair enough.

The Qunari remind me of Vikings more than bees.

The Qunari believe so firmly that they are right about life that they think they are doing everyone a favor by forcing the Qun on them.

However, as Sten describes the Qun at length, it is not nearly so oppresive or unpleasant as it sounds when you only hear one or two of his conversation trees. It is a group societal philosophy of service and group imporvement. I mentioned bees specifically because each individual in a beehive is meaninless in the face of the survival of the whole hive.

I've actually found myself given pause simply sit and think about a number of the things that Sten has said regarding the philosophies of the Qun. Not that I necessarily agree with everything said. But it's worth really thinking about.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 25 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[Dunquixote]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There should be a slap Alistair mod.

You know, with like a rolled-up newspaper or something.

BAD ALISTAIR, BAD

Can we have a slap Fenris one too?

We're gonna need a Slap Isabela mod too.

But we won't be slapping her face

I'd say amen but only if it was her face.

[Melca36]

David Gaider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
Mr. Gaider, have you ever noticed that the characters that get the most fan-hate are ones that have strong religious convictions?

Yes. Not unexpected, really... particularly on the Internet where your average person is affluent, Western and prone to bias against religious organizations in general. I don't think that's a bad thing, though. Like I've said previously, "fan-hate" is preferable to apathy, when it comes to the basic purpose that such characters serve... and, as far as I can tell, the bar for fans to hate just about any character is pretty darned low.

"What? He dared to talk about his personal problems? What a WHINER."

When you mean apathy do you equate that with the player *not* using the character at all?  There were a few times I didn't even use Sebastian at all.

And does this also mean any sort of fan hate for a character guarantee that character will return?

[gonzalez.melissa53]

Sebastian would make a great villian!!! /sigh I would still /drool him but he could be so rightous and vengful!!! picture it! Swooning fangirls and angry babies LOL in his honor.

[Jessihatt]

the_one_54321 wrote...
The Qunari believe so firmly that they are right about life that they think they are doing everyone a favor by forcing the Qun on them.

However, as Sten describes the Qun at length, it is not nearly so oppresive or unpleasant as it sounds when you only hear one or two of his conversation trees. It is a group societal philosophy of service and group imporvement. I mentioned bees specifically because each individual in a beehive is meaninless in the face of the survival of the whole hive.

I've actually found myself given pause simply sit and think about a number of the things that Sten has said regarding the philosophies of the Qun. Not that I necessarily agree with everything said. But it's worth really thinking about.

Sten is one of my favourite characters and you're right - he does explain it in a way that doesn't make it seem so unpleasant. It's just the more unpleasant things are more memorable. Like Fenris says, they don't waste resources. They sound very cold, but that's comparable to the Rite of Tranquility with the Chantry.

Slightly more on topic, maybe having another Qunari party member would be beneficial in DA3! Seen as the player knows most about the Andrastian faith they will probably be for/against mage freedom and be on one end of the spectrum, hearing other religions views could deliver a more unbiased solution.