1536 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill learned about blood magic from Audacity, but it remained trapped in the totem because she refused to let it loose.

Yeah, and then later she seeks it out... to let it loose. Why? Because it set her up with only enough knowledge to get the job started. She asks Hawke to come with her because she knows her freedom may be forfeit and she may need to be killed.

If you find the blood magic and demons in DA interesting, I wish you'd just say so instead of trying to make something safe and benevolent out of something that the writers obviously intend to be dangerous and morally dubious.

It really is okay to be like "I love blood magic, I don't care what y'all say!"

[Dunquixote]

Okay. I just thought maybe, with the point that was made by John Epler, that maybe he could've had some "good" reason to betray them. I never have thought before that characters that betray another character might have some good motive to doing so. Having said that, then Howe is an exception to that notion, only having selfish and sadistic thoughts of what he wanted.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the same game she also repents her stupid behavior and also begs Hawke for forgiveness after giving in to a demon's temptations in the fade.

You mean the Act II quest where every single companion - with one single exception - will betray Hawke in the Fade in a matter of a few seconds of dialogue? Plot railroading virtually every companion into committing attempted murder against Hawke isn't exactly the best argument against Merrill when the Plot demands that pretty much everyone else does the same thing.

[the_one_54321]

Plot railroading may be lame, but it's still valid in the game world. That's what happened.

[TEWR]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Plot railroading may be lame, but it's still valid in the game world. That's what happened.

Bah, that quest holds no significance for me because it's mind control done by a demon -- all the companions say that the demons knew how to control them -- and because what they do is out of character for each of them.

Fact: A Desire Demon's abilities include mind control

It is a logical assumption to make by believing that Pride Demons can do much the same thing, given that they're more powerful then Desire Demons.

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, and then later she seeks it out... to let it loose. Why? Because it set her up with only enough knowledge to get the job started. She asks Hawke to come with her because she knows her freedom may be forfeit and she may need to be killed.

NO. She flat out tells an aggressive Hawke that she is not going there to let it loose. She's going there to seek out more information on how to get the Eluvian to work without setting the demon free, because she's exhausted every other lead she knows of.

brushyourteeth wrote...

If you find the blood magic and demons in DA interesting, I wish you'd just say so instead of trying to make something safe and benevolent out of something that the writers obviously intend to be dangerous and morally dubious.

It really is okay to be like "I love blood magic, I don't care what y'all say!"

And this seems like you're making a strawman against Lob.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill learned about blood magic from Audacity, but it remained trapped in the totem because she refused to let it loose.

Yeah, and then later she seeks it out... to let it loose. Why? Because it set her up with only enough knowledge to get the job started. She asks Hawke to come with her because she knows her freedom may be forfeit and she may need to be killed.

Merrill said she was going to converse with Audacity, but that she was concerned because she didn't sense its presence in the totem anymore. She specifically asked Hawke to accompany her in case something goes wrong and he needs to deal with her. Honestly, I got the impression that Audacity played Marethari all along, especially given how Marethari's "revelation" in Act III must have only come from Audacity itself.

brushyourteeth wrote...

If you find the blood magic and demons in DA interesting, I wish you'd just say so instead of trying to make something safe and benevolent out of something that the writers obviously intend to be dangerous and morally dubious.

It really is okay to be like "I love blood magic, I don't care what y'all say!"

You're being disingenious here. I don't find blood magic to be evil, and I've said as much - it's all about how it's used. The Grey Wardens are created through an act of blood magic; Grey Warden mages use blood magic; phylacteries are blood magic; Finn uses blood magic to locate an Eluvian. It's not the dark side of the Force, it's a school of magic that can be used for good or bad; it all depends on how it is used.

Furthermore, Merrill makes it clear that there's no such thing as a "good spirit." She cautions Hawke to be careful if he decides to deal with a demon. I don't see how you got the impression that Merrill thinks that the denizens of the Fade are benevolent, when she never makes such a claim.

[the_one_54321]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Plot railroading may be lame, but it's still valid in the game world. That's what happened.

Bah, that quest holds no significance for me because it's mind control done by a demon -- all the companions say that the demons knew how to control them -- and because what they do is out of character for each of them.

Fact: A Desire Demon's abilities include mind control

It is a logical assumption to make by believing that Pride Demons can do much the same thing, given that they're more powerful then Desire Demons.

Oh, so demons can control your mind. Then working with them should be totally ok. Gotcha.

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, and then later she seeks it out... to let it loose. Why? Because it set her up with only enough knowledge to get the job started. She asks Hawke to come with her because she knows her freedom may be forfeit and she may need to be killed.

NO. She flat out tells an aggressive Hawke that she is not going there to let it loose. She's going there to seek out more information on how to get the Eluvian to work without setting the demon free, because she's exhausted every other lead she knows of.

Well I don't know about all that, but on every playthough I've ever had she gets all lip-trembly and says she needs you there "in case... in case...." "In case I need to cut you down? Merrill, this is crazy" (paraphrase) "I don't trust anyone else to do it."

And regardless of how Merrill expected things to turn out, we know what the demon's plans were.

[TEWR]

Oh, so demons can control your mind. Then working with them should be totally ok. Gotcha.

When they've got full access to their powers, of course you shouldn't.

Audacity's powers were extremely limited because he was trapped, as the game and the short story make clear.

[the_one_54321]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Oh, so demons can control your mind. Then working with them should be totally ok. Gotcha.

When they've got full access to their powers, of course you shouldn't.

Audacity's powers were extremely limited because he was trapped, as the game and the short story make clear.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You are addressing a case about a demon that is trapped in the real world in a totem by ancient elven magic, that can only escape if a mage intentionally lets it loose. Since Merrill makes it clear she isn't going to let Audacity loose, I don't see the point in your condemnation of her.

John Epler wrote...
In which case, it's less to do with the power of the demon as it is the gullibility of the person involved.

So she's taking a stupid risk, and it bites her in the butt. This is pretty much what I originally said.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 26 avril 2012 - 05:13 .

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Oh, so demons can control your mind. Then working with them should be totally ok. Gotcha.  

You are addressing a case about a demon that is trapped in the real world in a totem by ancient elven magic, that can only escape if a mage intentionally lets it loose. Since Merrill makes it clear she isn't going to let Audacity loose, I don't see the point in your condemnation of her.

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, and then later she seeks it out... to let it loose. Why? Because it set her up with only enough knowledge to get the job started. She asks Hawke to come with her because she knows her freedom may be forfeit and she may need to be killed.

NO. She flat out tells an aggressive Hawke that she is not going there to let it loose. She's going there to seek out more information on how to get the Eluvian to work without setting the demon free, because she's exhausted every other lead she knows of.

Well I don't know about all that, but on every playthough I've ever had she gets all lip-trembly and says she needs you there "in case... in case...." "In case I need to cut you down? Merrill, this is crazy" (paraphrase) "I don't trust anyone else to do it."

And regardless of how Merrill expected things to turn out, we know what the demon's plans were.

Yes we do. It wanted freedom by using Marethari and manipulating her to free him.

Fact: We know that Audacity can only be freed by a powerful spell. What we don't know is whether or not Merrill even knew this spell. But we do know that Marethari knew it.

And I guess because she didn't know what would happen, that must mean that she was definitely going to let it loose. Even when she says otherwise.

Because that makes sense.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

NO. She flat out tells an aggressive Hawke that she is not going there to let it loose. She's going there to seek out more information on how to get the Eluvian to work without setting the demon free, because she's exhausted every other lead she knows of.

Well I don't know about all that, but on every playthough I've ever had she gets all lip-trembly and says she needs you there "in case... in case...." "In case I need to cut you down? Merrill, this is crazy" (paraphrase) "I don't trust anyone else to do it."

And regardless of how Merrill expected things to turn out, we know what the demon's plans were.

Considering that Marethari lets Audacity loose and becomes an abomination, it's entirely possible that was the plan all along. Since Merrill makes it clear that she isn't going to let Audacity loose, but cautions Hawke to kill her because she thinks that Audacity has somehow escaped from its totem (since she warns Hawke that it seems to be gone from its place in Sundermount), I give more credit to Merrill thinking about others than to Marethari, who became an abomination and preceded to warn absolutely no one about the danger she posed.

[John Epler]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Plot railroading may be lame, but it's still valid in the game world. That's what happened.

Bah, that quest holds no significance for me because it's mind control done by a demon -- all the companions say that the demons knew how to control them -- and because what they do is out of character for each of them.

Fact: A Desire Demon's abilities include mind control

It is a logical assumption to make by believing that Pride Demons can do much the same thing, given that they're more powerful then Desire Demons.

Oh, so demons can control your mind. Then working with them should be totally ok. Gotcha.

To be fair, it's the Fade. When you go to the Fade, you're going into the very realm where demons are most powerful. This is their home turf, it's a place shaped by thoughts and emotion, and this makes demons especially dangerous there. Yes, they can still influence your mind in the real world, but their powers are greatly diminished. The writers will no doubt correct me if I'm mistaken here, but as far as I know they tend to operate more through guile in the real world as opposed to force - promising you gifts and boons, so long as you give them what -they- want.

In which case, it's less to do with the power of the demon as it is the gullibility of the person involved.

Modifié par John Epler, 26 avril 2012 - 05:11 .

[the_one_54321]

Responses are in my previous post.

[TEWR]

So she's taking a stupid risk, and it bites her in the butt. This is pretty much what I originally said.

NO.

She was taught blood magic by the demon. For 7 years, she went without contacting it. Marethari, because of her Messiah complex and her pride, decided to be a ****** and let the demon loose.

It's the type of pride you see in the expression Mother knows best. The only difference is that Marethari warps it to being Only Mother knows best, especially on matters that she is ignorant of.

She doesn't even think she might be wrong, and in her mind because she's the Keeper -- so I guess Only Keeper knows best -- she must be right.

That's partially why I hate her character. She just comes off as incredibly arrogant, which fits considering her pride led to her possession.

To blame Merrill for the actions of Marethari is asenine.

The threat was contained. And Marethari decided to let it loose

It's equivalent to me blaming one neighbor who owns a mean dog because his neighbor decided to let loose that mean dog.

Merrill is not responsible for another adult's actions.

John Epler wrote...

In which case, it's less to do with the power of the demon as it is the gullibility of the person involved

So, assuming your analysis was correct, that means I was correct since it's the same thing I was thinking of.

And the games go out of their way to show that Merrill is not gullible when it comes to matters of the arcane.

Yay!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2012 - 05:18 .

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

If you find the blood magic and demons in DA interesting, I wish you'd just say so instead of trying to make something safe and benevolent out of something that the writers obviously intend to be dangerous and morally dubious.

It really is okay to be like "I love blood magic, I don't care what y'all say!"

You're being disingenious here. I don't find blood magic to be evil, and I've said as much - it's all about how it's used. The Grey Wardens are created through an act of blood magic; Grey Warden mages use blood magic; phylacteries are blood magic; Finn uses blood magic to locate an Eluvian. It's not the dark side of the Force, it's a school of magic that can be used for good or bad; it all depends on how it is used.

Furthermore, Merrill makes it clear that there's no such thing as a "good spirit." She cautions Hawke to be careful if he decides to deal with a demon. I don't see how you got the impression that Merrill thinks that the denizens of the Fade are benevolent, when she never makes such a claim.

I'm absolutely not being disingenuous here - scout's honor. I'd respect you as much as I'd respect anyone for saying "yeah, I take the dark and dangerous path in games because it interests me. It's a game - so what?" It's trying to change the definition of something that's obviously meant to be morally questionable that makes me wonder what your deal is.

I've said before that while I believe blood magic is evil, I don't believe that all blood mages are evil. On that last statement we definitely agree. If you have a citation for how the Joining relates to blood magic, I would love to see it, because I really don't see the Circle mages preparing the Joining and accidentally using blood magic to do it. The power of the joining is in darkspawn blood - and it's altered with lyrium and some kind of preparation done in the fade - that's all I'm aware that we know about it. You make it sound like all Grey Wardens use blood magic, when in fact it's an unorthodox approach that the order doesn't forbid - that doesn't mean it's part of their regimen or they do it lightly or regularly. Also because the Grey Wardens do it doesn't mean it's right - they've done some pretty terrible stuff in the past actually. Also, Merrill's opinions about fade spirits is irrelivant to every point except for establishing her point of view on the subject. Just because Merrill says it doesn't make it fact: that's how she percieves it; that's how she justifies interacting with them. More than once she waffles between admitting that it's a dangerous demon and defending its position as a neutral fade spirit. The whole point of her character seems to me, to be to show the foolishness of thinking blood magic can be used for good.

But that's all a moot point. What I'd really really like is for you to just say "Yeah, it's dangerous and potentially evil, and I don't care."

[the_one_54321]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
NO.

You've been going on for several posts about how she's worried things could go badly. I'm just agreeing with you and pointing out that she was an idiot for doing it anyway.

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So she's taking a stupid risk, and it bites her in the butt. This is pretty much what I originally said.

NO.

She was taught blood magic by the demon. For 7 years, she went without contacting it. Marethari, because of her Messiah complex and her pride, decided to be a ****** and let the demon loose.

It's the type of pride you see in the expression Mother knows best. The only difference is that Marethari warps it to being Only Mother knows best, especially on matters that she is ignorant of.

She doesn't even think she might be wrong, and in her mind because she's the Keeper -- so I guess Only Keeper knows best -- she must be right.

That's partially why I hate her character. She just comes off as incredibly arrogant, which fits considering her pride led to her possession.

To blame Merrill for the actions of Marethari is asenine.

The threat was contained. And Marethari decided to let it loose

It's equivalent to me blaming one neighbor who owns a mean dog because his neighbor decided to let loose that mean dog.

Merrill is not responsible for another adult's actions.

I don't see any evidence to support the idea that Merrill is wiser or more capable than Marethari.

I thought her sacrifice was beautiful.

[TEWR]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
NO.

You've been going on for several posts about how she's worried things could go badly. I'm just agreeing with you and pointing out that she was an idiot for doing it anyway.

Marethari would've let Audacity loose anyway. The fact that you can neglect to tell her where you're going and she still ends up possessed seems to mean that she was possessed when Merrill noticed that Audacity wasn't responding back when Merrill tried to re-establish contact with the demon.

So Merrill going to the mountain seems to have nothing to do with whether or not Audacity would've been freed.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

So she's taking a stupid risk, and it bites her in the butt. This is pretty much what I originally said. 

If Merrill was the one taking a stupid risk, then why was Marethari the one who actually let Audacity loose and became an abomination while Merrill refused to let Audacity loose during her prior interaction with the entrapped demon? I don't really understand the condemnation of Merrill for doing exactly what The Warden and Hawke can do - get information from a demon without losing your soul or making a bargain in the process. Per Gaider, Merrill studied the lore about the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard. She learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the necessary amounts of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. She never let Audacity loose in several years, and pursued a variety of options in her attempts to build an Eluvian.

I applaud Merrill for being proactive, for actively trying to help the People. I admire that she was pursuing a course of action, rather than simply stumbling blindly across Thedas hoping for things to change on their own like the rest of the Dalish seem to be doing. Merrill doing her research and taking a risk that could benefit the People is certainly more admirable than going into the Deep Roads to purchase an old mansion, but I don't see people condemning Hawke for risking other people's lives so that his family can become rich.

[the_one_54321]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So Merrill going to the mountain seems to have nothing to do with whether or not Audacity would've been freed.

So what? Her actions were still a stupid risk. Because she knew it was a risk and she did it anyway.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't really understand the condemnation of Merrill for doing exactly what The Warden and Hawke can do - get information from a demon without losing your soul or making a bargain in the process.

Merril makes it explicitly clear that she's darn well aware that she is no comparison to Hawke. Either in the female romance, or after the whole ordeal is done.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 26 avril 2012 - 05:24 .

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't see any evidence to support the idea that Merrill is wiser or more capable than Marethari.

The old adage about the student surpassing the master comes to mind.

Merrill is able to recognize that even demons can be outwitted. Marethari seems ignorant of this fact. Hawke can outwit demons, The Warden can outwit demons, and even Morrigan and Sten prove too smart for demons.

Merrill outsmarted Audacity. Audacity outsmarted Marethari.

I don't see why Merrill should assume that her teacher would do something so idiotic like letting a demon that's trapped and would continue to be trapped -- by her teacher's own words no less! -- loose and possess a mage.

I thought her sacrifice was beautiful.

And I thought it was the act of an overly arrogant and idiotic mage that let a demon manipulate her.

I mean really, who sits for 7 years at the base of a mountain where a demon is? When that demon has been able to whisper to her?

That seems smart to you? That seems beautiful to you?

If she wanted to keep tabs on Merrill -- despite Merrill no longer having any connection to that clan by her act of leaving -- then that's fine. But if she was truly smart she would've moved her entire clan away from the mountain base.

Even without their halla, the Elves could've moved the Aravels slowly every day.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2012 - 05:29 .