1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Dakota Strider]

I have to go with the argument that Merrill was being controlled, to some degree by the demon all along.

Throughout all the time you know her, she is indecisive, confused, naive and the only one thing she is adamant about, is that it is ok to contact a spirit/demon if "it has a good purpose." The one belief that she holds firm to, is the one thing that all of her friends and allies try to persuade her against.

Circumstantial evidence, sure. However, I have yet to see a good argument that can explain how someone that cannot make up their mind about anything else, and is always seeking advice, rejects the advice about the one subject that is so dangerous.

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't see any evidence to support the idea that Merrill is wiser or more capable than Marethari.

The old adage about the student surpassing the master comes to mind.

Merrill is able to recognize that even demons can be outwitted. Marethari seems ignorant of this fact. Hawke can outwit demons, The Warden can outwit demons, and even Morrigan and Sten prove too smart for demons.

Merrill outsmarted Audacity. Audacity outsmarted Marethari.

I don't see why Merrill should assume that her teacher would do something so idiotic like letting a demon that's trapped and would continue to be trapped -- by her teacher's own words no less! -- loose and possess a mage.

I thought her sacrifice was beautiful.

And I thought it was the act of an overly arrogant and idiotic mage that let a demon manipulate her.

I mean really, who sits for 7 years at the base of a mountain where a demon is? When that demon has been able to whisper to her?

That seems smart to you? That seems beautiful to you?

I just... disagree with almost everything you just said and I don't even know where to start.
Okay... adages don't prove anything. Just because it was said once to describe a situation at one time does not make it true in this situation. Saying "the student has surpassed the teacher" doesn't make it so.
Marethari seems wise enough to understand that it is Merrill who is being outwitted, and she keeps the camp near Kirkwall long enough to see how the situation will play out. When she realizes that Merrill will come for the demon and won't be able to resist it, she allows it to possess her instead so that it will spare Merrill, knowing that Hawke & Co. will be there shortly to stop her before she can hurt anyone. I don't see any evidence in the game to suggest that she listened to the thing speaking to her for 7 years (if you remember the short story about Merrill then you know they had to climb Sundermount to communicate with it) but I fail to see how keeping the Dalish there was more stupid than Merrill's practition of blood magic for that 7 years. The protag being able to cut deals with demons without facing any personal repercussions sounds like something Mr. Gaider plans to rectify in future games, so we'll see.

I find it really interesting that in the end you actually disagree with Merrill about the wisdom of her actions. When all is said and done,she seems to have no problems with grasping the fact that Marethari knew what was what the whole time.

But at least you admit that demons are dangerous and they mean us harm. That makes me happy.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

If you find the blood magic and demons in DA interesting, I wish you'd just say so instead of trying to make something safe and benevolent out of something that the writers obviously intend to be dangerous and morally dubious.

It really is okay to be like "I love blood magic, I don't care what y'all say!"

You're being disingenious here. I don't find blood magic to be evil, and I've said as much - it's all about how it's used. The Grey Wardens are created through an act of blood magic; Grey Warden mages use blood magic; phylacteries are blood magic; Finn uses blood magic to locate an Eluvian. It's not the dark side of the Force, it's a school of magic that can be used for good or bad; it all depends on how it is used.

Furthermore, Merrill makes it clear that there's no such thing as a "good spirit." She cautions Hawke to be careful if he decides to deal with a demon. I don't see how you got the impression that Merrill thinks that the denizens of the Fade are benevolent, when she never makes such a claim.

I'm absolutely not being disingenuous here - scout's honor. I'd respect you as much as I'd respect anyone for saying "yeah, I take the dark and dangerous path in games because it interests me. It's a game - so what?" It's trying to change the definition of something that's obviously meant to be morally questionable that makes me wonder what your deal is.

I don't deny that blood magic can be dangerous, but I simply don't see it as evil. It's a school of magic, it's not inherently evil. I've never said otherwise. Can it be dangerous? Of course it can. I would never contest that. I've taken the approach with my Surana Warden and my ethnically Antivan apostate Hawke, and it made sense from a character standpoint: the Wardens do whatever it takes to stop the Blight, while an apostate can't deal with a templar who can nullify their abilities unless he uses blood magic.

brushyourteeth wrote...

I've said before that while I believe blood magic is evil, I don't believe that all blood mages are evil. On that last statement we definitely agree. If you have a citation for how the Joining relates to blood magic, I would love to see it, because I really don't see the Circle mages preparing the Joining and accidentally using blood magic to do it. The power of the joining is in darkspawn blood - and it's altered with lyrium and some kind of preparation done in the fade - that's all I'm aware that we know about it. You make it sound like all Grey Wardens use blood magic, when in fact it's an unorthodox approach that the order doesn't forbid - that doesn't mean it's part of their regimen or they do it lightly or regularly.

The issue is that the Joining involves blood and magic. It's no different than the phylacteries, which are also a form of blood magic. I've also never claimed every single Grey Warden mage uses blood magic; I've addressed that some do, and that the order doesn't prohibit blood magic.

brushyourteeth wrote...

Also because the Grey Wardens do it doesn't mean it's right - they've done some pretty terrible stuff in the past actually.

I don't contest that, but using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn seems like an example of how blood magic is used for a greater good. Using blood magic to help prevent the destruction of all sentient life on Thedas seems like an example of how it can be used for good.

brushyourteeth wrote...

Also, Merrill's opinions about fade spirits is irrelivant to every point except for establishing her point of view on the subject. Just because Merrill says it doesn't make it fact: that's how she percieves it; that's how she justifies interacting with them. More than once she waffles between admitting that it's a dangerous demon and defending its position as a neutral fade spirit. The whole point of her character seems to me, to be to show the foolishness of thinking blood magic can be used for good.

But that's all a moot point. What I'd really really like is for you to just say "Yeah, it's dangerous and potentially evil, and I don't care."

Merrill and Anders' conversations make it clear that Merrill's view is due to her being Dalish; Anders actually attacks her views because she doesn't seperate spirits and demons into two categories as different "sins" of the Maker because she isn't an Andrastian like Anders is. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for having Dalish views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it).

You and I don't disagree that it can be dangerous, but we don't concur on the issue that it's evil. I don't see it as evil. If a blood mage saw Vaughan and his people trying to abduct women out of the Alienage in broad daylight, would using blood magic to stop him be evil? I don't think it would.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill and Anders' conversations make it clear that Merrill's view is due to her being Dalish; Anders actually attacks her views because she doesn't seperate spirits and demons into two categories as different "sins" of the Maker because she isn't an Andrastian like Anders is. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for having Dalish views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it).

Well, that's because Anders is a freaking lunatic. And Merril is just very stupid. (or naive, if that word fits better for you)

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So Merrill going to the mountain seems to have nothing to do with whether or not Audacity would've been freed.

So what? Her actions were still a stupid risk. Because she knew it was a risk and she did it anyway.

That's precisely what Hawke does for several years - risk his life, along with the lives of his companions. The difference in Merrill's case is that she is focused on restoring ancient elven technology that she believes can benefit the People. She may be right, she may be wrong, but at least she's proactive about the plight of the People.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't really understand the condemnation of Merrill for doing exactly what The Warden and Hawke can do - get information from a demon without losing your soul or making a bargain in the process.

Merril makes it explicitly clear that she's darn well aware that she is no comparison to Hawke. Either in the female romance, or after the whole ordeal is done.

Merrill puts Hawke on a pedestal, but that doesn't make her view accurate. She thinks an elven Hawke could build a kingdom for the elves, and the protagonist is too passive to even doing much of anything unless someone tells him to do something. Hawke's passive nature for several years makes me see the Champion very differently than Merrill does.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill puts Hawke on a pedestal, but that doesn't make her view accurate.

Her view is accurate. Hawke is a [copulating] god among mortals. No matter which style of Hawke you choose. Hawke is the single voice of sanity in an insane asylum, and the one person that can overcome every challenge that no one else can possibly overcome.

Hawke is entirely railroaded into Mary Sue territory. And that's pretty much how most of the players seem to like it.

But the point is that Hawke is superhuman. You can't compare to Hawke as basis for normalization. Hawke is not an example of normalcy, even for the elite.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 26 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Dakota Strider wrote...

I have to go with the argument that Merrill was being controlled, to some degree by the demon all along.

If Merrill was controlled, then why didn't she let Audacity loose?

Dakota Strider wrote...

Throughout all the time you know her, she is indecisive, confused, naive and the only one thing she is adamant about, is that it is ok to contact a spirit/demon if "it has a good purpose." The one belief that she holds firm to, is the one thing that all of her friends and allies try to persuade her against.

Merrill has never really been in contact with humans before, she is out of her element in a human city, she is dealing with culture shock, she warns that all spirits are dangerous and that there's no such thing as a good spirit, and she cautions Hawke to be careful if he deals with a denizen of the Fade.

Dakota Strider wrote...

Circumstantial evidence, sure. However, I have yet to see a good argument that can explain how someone that cannot make up their mind about anything else, and is always seeking advice, rejects the advice about the one subject that is so dangerous.

Merrill makes up her mind about a plethora of issues, like the possible importance of the Eluvian, and protecting the mages. She has her own opinions, and doesn't need to give up her views simply because others disagree with her. She holds to her issues when Anders' attacks her for her Dalish views, and tries to enforce his Andrastian views over her own. I don't see how you can seriously think that Merrill having her own views means that she is under demonic influence.

[brushyourteeth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill and Anders' conversations make it clear that Merrill's view is due to her being Dalish; Anders actually attacks her views because she doesn't seperate spirits and demons into two categories as different "sins" of the Maker because she isn't an Andrastian like Anders is. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for having Dalish views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it).

You and I don't disagree that it can be dangerous, but we don't concur on the issue that it's evil. I don't see it as evil. If a blood mage saw Vaughan and his people trying to abduct women out of the Alienage in broad daylight, would using blood magic to stop him be evil? I don't think it would.

I don't think Merrill has a Dalish view on the fade spirits at all - in fact, Marethari seems to well know the difference between a good spirit and a bad spirit, though she may not use the word demon. And just because the Chantry may be unattractive doesn't automatically mean that they have false knowledge on this point.

I see using blood magic to stop any tragedy as being quite evil, because the power of blood magic is corrupting. It is the act of opening yourself up to demonic influence as a trade-off for whatever you think that power is worth. And it is making yourself a potential horror greater than any that your loved ones now have to deal with.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill and Anders' conversations make it clear that Merrill's view is due to her being Dalish; Anders actually attacks her views because she doesn't seperate spirits and demons into two categories as different "sins" of the Maker because she isn't an Andrastian like Anders is. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for having Dalish views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it).

Well, that's because Anders is a freaking lunatic. And Merril is just very stupid. (or naive, if that word fits better for you)

I guess refusing to let Audacity loose must have made Merrill "very stupid." If only she was as wise as Marethari, who let Audacity loose, became an abomination, warned absolutely no one, nearly killed Hawke and Merrill, and endagered her entire clan with her actions.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill puts Hawke on a pedestal, but that doesn't make her view accurate.

Her view is accurate. Hawke is a [copulating] god among mortals. No matter which style of Hawke you choose. Hawke is the single voice of sanity in an insane asylum, and the one person that can overcome every challenge that no one else can possibly overcome.

I guess letting Petrice go when she said she wanted to start a religious war and kill innocent people, doing nothing about evidence he finds in Quentin's lair, and doing absolutely nothing for three years between Acts II and III must be prime examples of how Hawke is a "god among mortals."

the_one_54321 wrote...

Hawke is entirely railroaded into Mary Sue territory. And that's pretty much how most of the players seem to like it.

But the point is that Hawke is superhuman. You can't compare to Hawke as basis for normalization. Hawke is not an example of normalcy, even for the elite.

Hawke does nothing for years at a time. I don't see how he's "superhuman" when he seems to be, at least to me, extremely lazy and incompetent.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I guess refusing to let Audacity loose must have made Merrill "very stupid." If only she was as wise as Marethari, who let Audacity loose, became an abomination, warned absolutely no one, nearly killed Hawke and Merrill, and endagered her entire clan with her actions.

Who is the deciding factor? Merril means well, but she decides, she acts, and she deals with the responsibility of that.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke does nothing for years at a time. I don't see how he's "superhuman" when he seems to be, at least to me, extremely lazy and incompetent.

Why does Hawke need to be active in order to be awesome? Hawke still fixes, kills, destroys, or dominates everything that needs it, as the options come up during the story.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill and Anders' conversations make it clear that Merrill's view is due to her being Dalish; Anders actually attacks her views because she doesn't seperate spirits and demons into two categories as different "sins" of the Maker because she isn't an Andrastian like Anders is. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for having Dalish views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond, as the Dalish call it).

You and I don't disagree that it can be dangerous, but we don't concur on the issue that it's evil. I don't see it as evil. If a blood mage saw Vaughan and his people trying to abduct women out of the Alienage in broad daylight, would using blood magic to stop him be evil? I don't think it would.

I don't think Merrill has a Dalish view on the fade spirits at all - in fact, Marethari seems to well know the difference between a good spirit and a bad spirit, though she may not use the word demon. And just because the Chantry may be unattractive doesn't automatically mean that they have false knowledge on this point.

I'll let the dialogue between Anders and Merrill speak for itself on this issue:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

I hope that concludes any doubt about spirits and demons being part of Andrastian lore.

brushyourteeth wrote...

I see using blood magic to stop any tragedy as being quite evil, because the power of blood magic is corrupting. It is the act of opening yourself up to demonic influence as a trade-off for whatever you think that power is worth. And it is making yourself a potential horror greater than any that your loved ones now have to deal with.

Except some mages turn to blood magic because they see it as the only school of magic that's free of spirits and demons, per the lore:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

I suppose this is an issue where we will simply have to agree to disagree.

[brushyourteeth]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

I don't think Merrill has a Dalish view on the fade spirits at all - in fact, Marethari seems to well know the difference between a good spirit and a bad spirit, though she may not use the word demon. And just because the Chantry may be unattractive doesn't automatically mean that they have false knowledge on this point. [/quote]

I'll let the dialogue between Anders and Merrill speak for itself on this issue:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

I hope that concludes any doubt about spirits and demons being part of Andrastian lore.[/quote][/quote]

I actually don't see how that settles anything, except that Anders and Merrill disagree. If I mislead you to believe I didn't understand the Chantry view on fade spirits, I apologize - but like I said, just because the Chantry is unattractive doesn't make them wrong.

On the contrary, Merrill seems to be the only Dalish elf who refuses to see the difference between evil fade spirits and benevolent ones. Don't you remember how her entire clan freaked out when she began practicing blood magic? Is she smarter than all of them now?

[quote]brushyourteeth wrote...

I see using blood magic to stop any tragedy as being quite evil, because the power of blood magic is corrupting. It is the act of opening yourself up to demonic influence as a trade-off for whatever you think that power is worth. And it is making yourself a potential horror greater than any that your loved ones now have to deal with.[/quote]

Except some mages turn to blood magic because they see it as the only school of magic that's free of spirits and demons, per the lore:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

I suppose this is an issue where we will simply have to agree to disagree.[/quote]

I don't know what to say about that bolded part of the codex entry. Good find. I hope you'll agree with me that that's a side of blood magic that hasn't been adequately explained to us, so I can honestly say I don't know what to make of it.

And you know me - I've already agreed to disagree, but as long as you find it worth talking about I'm game.

[Melca36]

Dunquixote wrote...

I don't know how long it was since I played my dwarf noble; sometimes it seems just like yesterday, the way I'm fuming thinking about that nug humper, Ivo. There's other days it seems like it's been a long time though where I think, "I guess I didn't explore all of the possibilities of what led the guy to betray her."

With that having been said, does that mean the Couslands were planning to betray the Howes (or was it Ferelden -- I forgot what Nathaniel said in Awakening) to the Orlesians?

Um...the COUSLANDS were NEVER planning to betray the Howes.

Rendon Howe was a Sadist.   Bryce Cousland wanted PEACE and HOWE used that.

Please read some of the history.  <_<

[brushyourteeth]

Melca36 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...

I don't know how long it was since I played my dwarf noble; sometimes it seems just like yesterday, the way I'm fuming thinking about that nug humper, Ivo. There's other days it seems like it's been a long time though where I think, "I guess I didn't explore all of the possibilities of what led the guy to betray her."

With that having been said, does that mean the Couslands were planning to betray the Howes (or was it Ferelden -- I forgot what Nathaniel said in Awakening) to the Orlesians?

Um...the COUSLANDS were NEVER planning to betray the Howes.

Rendon Howe was a Sadist.   Bryce Cousland wanted PEACE and HOWE used that.

Please read some of the history.  <_<

Okay, so what happened is that in the Human Noble Origin your mother makes some offhand comment about how she was at a party and an Orlesian Marquis gave her some gift because he mistook her for the Queen of Fereldan (or something similar).

Later, Nathaniel says something about how your family made a deal with this Marquis to betray Fereldan. Can only strongly suspect that this was a story fabricated by Howe so he'd have some reason to give his family for betraying the Couslands.

[Dakota Strider]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

I have to go with the argument that Merrill was being controlled, to some degree by the demon all along.

If Merrill was controlled, then why didn't she let Audacity loose?

First of all....dang you type fast.  
Perhaps a better word, would be "influenced'.  But, that still is a level of control.  If a demon wanted to control a subject that is wary of being controlled, they would not use something blatant, that the mage is expecting.  Instead, they would start with very subtle hints, planting ideas that the mage would think is her own.  The demon would not be concerned about time, and would be willing to start with ideas that do not lead Merrill into thinking about freeing the demon.  Later, as Merrill becomes more convinced that the idea of fixing the Eluvian is what needs to be done to "save the elves," she is more susceptable to ideas that she needs more help from the demon.   Soon, she would be ready to accept the idea of freeing the demon is the way to accomplish what she wants, and she would believe it is all her idea.  That is how demons would possess someone, that is wary of them, yet is naive enough to think they are in control of the situation.

Dakota Strider wrote...
Throughout all the time you know her, she is indecisive, confused, naive and the only one thing she is adamant about, is that it is ok to contact a spirit/demon if "it has a good purpose." The one belief that she holds firm to, is the one thing that all of her friends and allies try to persuade her against.

LobselVith8 wrote...
 Merrill has never really been in contact with humans before, she is out of her element in a human city, she is dealing with culture shock, she warns that all spirits are dangerous and that there's no such thing as a good spirit, and she cautions Hawke to be careful if he deals with a denizen of the Fade.

Merrill is able to give sound advice to Hawke about demons, that she for some reason, is unwilling to heed herself.  She is not under total control of the demon yet, because she still has her core beliefs.  Yet, she is unable to listen to Hawke's and others' advice on this one crucial subject.   An "inner voice", telling her that she knows what she is doing, would be easy for her to think is her own.  Afterall, following it allows her to achieve what she wants. 

Dakota Strider wrote...
Circumstantial evidence, sure. However, I have yet to see a good argument that can explain how someone that cannot make up their mind about anything else, and is always seeking advice, rejects the advice about the one subject that is so dangerous.

  LobselVith8 wrote...
 Merrill makes up her mind about a plethora of issues, like the possible importance of the Eluvian, and protecting the mages. She has her own opinions, and doesn't need to give up her views simply because others disagree with her. She holds to her issues when Anders' attacks her for her Dalish views, and tries to enforce his Andrastian views over her own. I don't see how you can seriously think that Merrill having her own views means that she is under demonic influence.

I do not believe that Merrill was fully under demonic control.  So, I stated that incorrectly in my previous post.  But, I do believe she was being influenced, especially on matters that concern the Eluvian, because the demon knows that is the item that he can use to lead her back to him.  Planting the idea that using blood magic to purify the Eluvian was serving the demon's goals.  Planting ideas to justify that blood magic does not need to be evil.  Things that Merrill is willing to accept, because she will think that she rationalized it herself.  As I said before, the demon would be patient, and willing to take one small step at a time.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 26 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[Dunquixote]

Melca36 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...
I don't know how long it was since I played my dwarf noble; sometimes it seems just like yesterday, the way I'm fuming thinking about that nug humper, Ivo. There's other days it seems like it's been a long time though where I think, "I guess I didn't explore all of the possibilities of what led the guy to betray her."

With that having been said, does that mean the Couslands were planning to betray the Howes (or was it Ferelden -- I forgot what Nathaniel said in Awakening) to the Orlesians?

Um...the COUSLANDS were NEVER planning to betray the Howes.

Rendon Howe was a Sadist.   Bryce Cousland wanted PEACE and HOWE used that.

Please read some of the history.  <_<

My apologies for not reading everything in one or two playthroughs.

brushyourteeth wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...

I don't know how long it was since I played my dwarf noble; sometimes it
seems just like yesterday, the way I'm fuming thinking about that nug
humper, Ivo. There's other days it seems like it's been a long time
though where I think, "I guess I didn't explore all of the possibilities
of what led the guy to betray her."

With that having been said, does that mean the Couslands were planning to betray the Howes (or was it Ferelden -- I forgot what Nathaniel said in Awakening) to the Orlesians?

Um...the COUSLANDS were NEVER planning to betray the Howes.

Rendon Howe was a Sadist.   Bryce Cousland wanted PEACE and HOWE used that.

Please read some of the history.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

Okay,
so what happened is that in the Human Noble Origin your mother makes
some offhand comment about how she was at a party and an Orlesian
Marquis gave her some gift because he mistook her for the Queen of
Fereldan (or something similar).

Later, Nathaniel says something
about how your family made a deal with this Marquis to betray Fereldan.
Can only strongly suspect that this was a story fabricated by Howe so
he'd have some reason to give his family for betraying the Couslands.

Thank you Brush.  I've only played the Couslands once or twice.  I have been reading the codex, but it has been awhile since I read anything on the Couslands.  Or I might've just missed the codex entries.  the first time I played the Couslands was when I first got the Xbox game for my birthday last May.  Sorry again for not being on top of things.

Modifié par Dunquixote, 26 avril 2012 - 07:07 .

[Dakota Strider]

Avejajed wrote...

I don't know about you people, but my Hawke wasn't lazy or incompetent. My Hawke was a complete and utter bad ass. And if your Hawke was, well....you created him.

Hawke was all he could be.  A big fish, in a small pond.   Life was good, had his own mansion, had the captain of the guard in his pocket (JOKE!!), nothing of urgency to worry about, except once every few years. 

[brushyourteeth]

Dunquixote wrote...
Thank you Brush.  I've only played the Couslands once or twice.  I have been reading the codex, but it has been awhile since I read anything on the Couslands.  Or I might've just missed the codex entries.  the first time I played the couslands was when I first got the Xbox game for my birthday last May.  Sorry again for not being on top of things.  

My pleasure!  It is entirely possible that Howe was right and the Couslands were planning something nasty, but I just really doubt it since all he talks about in DAII is how he should be more powerful than Bryce.

[Dunquixote]

I did play one sometime during the semester I just finished. I don't remember every minute of my game play or if I read something or not. From my impression without reading the info, Bryce didn't seem to be the type to betray.  Sorry if that sounds contradictory to my earlier statements. Just feeling a little embarrassed for not being hardcore and having time to read everything. My way of thinking is to look at "the truth behind the truth" or in other words, sometimes things aren't always what they appear to be on the surface. So, that was my mistake too in addition for missing some lore.

Modifié par Dunquixote, 26 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[brushyourteeth]

Dunquixote wrote...

I did play one sometime during the semester I just finished. I don't remember every minute of my game play or if I read something or not. From my impression without reading the info, Bryce didn't seem to be the type to betray.  Sorry if that sounds contradictory to my earlier statements. Just feeling a little embarrassed for not being hardcore and having time to read everything. My way of thinking is to look at "the truth behind the truth" or in other words, sometimes things aren't always what they appear to be on the surface. So, that was my mistake too in addition for missing some lore.

That was like, the tiniest mistake ever. I don't even know how I remember that part. Don't beat yourself up about it -- I think your instincts about the characters seem pretty good.

[Dakota Strider]

Don't forget that Bryce Cousland had already sent his oldest son with a good part of the keep's fighting force to fight for the King of Ferelden, and he was about to leave the keep in the care of his youngest child as he went to join the battle with the rest of his troops. What kept that from happening was Howe's attack. Ferelden was weakened because of Howe's actions, not the Couslands'.

[Dunquixote]

Thank you for being patient and understanding Brush. Thanks Dakota for the clarification. That is one thing I never thought about though--Ferelden being weakened because of Howe; I assumed that it was Loghain for the most part and he only played a small role.

[brushyourteeth]

Yeah, I think Howe was easily more evil than Loghain. Loghain at least thought he was doing what was right - Howe was just jealous and greedy.

Dunquixote, you'll get used to people around here taking themselves and the DA lore too seriously. Don't let it bug you.

[Dakota Strider]

@Dunquixote My belief is that Howe and Loghain were working together before the battle of Ostagar. Nothing in the game can contradict that. I have heard there are sources that have claimed after the fact, that Loghain did not know Howe's plan. But Loghain and Howe seem to pretty much be joined at the hip throughout the game.