1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Alister is the closest thing to a Judas I've experienced a BioWare game.

Personally, i think the only "good" betrayals that Bioware have done are in Hordes of the Underdark with the Henchmen.

I never finished Hordes of the Underdark so I never experienced that.

The Dread Illithid.

[Curlain]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Alister is the closest thing to a Judas I've experienced a BioWare game.

Personally, i think the only "good" betrayals that Bioware have done are in Hordes of the Underdark with the Henchmen.

I never finished Hordes of the Underdark so I never experienced that.

The Dread Illithid.

Ah, the illithid were easy once you had a helm that protected your PC's brain, the beholders on the other hand... *shudders*

Modifié par Curlain, 26 avril 2012 - 08:17 .

[Maria Caliban]

Don't besmirch The Dread Illithid.

[SerTabris]

To maybe come back to the original topic, I think it's good when companions' beliefs and actions inspire some kind of debate/argument like this. It makes them more interesting.

[nightscrawl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not really the best argument that the Andrastian version is the correct version when the denizens of the Fade emulate what they "see" from mortals, which would include the dreams and ideas of the Andrastians who believe in the lore of the Chantry of Andraste.

My overall point is that the game designers don't present them as anything else. Merrill doesn't believe in the demons breaking down into sins, as Anders explains them, but the demon that attacks the party during A New Path is a pride demon. There are demons of various types in Bartrand's mansion even though he is a dwarf, and they don't have those same beliefs (I am assuming Bartrand is not an Andrastian because Varric's remarks seem to suggest that he more into the whole "dwarf" thing than Varric himself is). You can play the entirety of DAO as a dwarf or a dalish elf, but you will still see the demons presented that way through the whole game. That doesn't have anything to do with lore, it's an inconsistency of game design, albeit a very small one that I don't hink matters much beyond conversations like this.

I suppose you could say that the demon is presented as different to everyone who looks upon it, but a statement like that is never said in the game. It would also be difficult mechanically to show that, since we can switch controlling party members and such. Presumably, when controlling Anders you would see the pride demon, but when controlling Merrill you would see something else. Even if that's feasible, it's a clumsy way to show it outside of a cinematic setting.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 avril 2012 - 09:31 .

[whykikyouwhy]

nightscrawl wrote...
My overall point is that the game designers don't present them as anything else. Merrill doesn't believe in the demons breaking down into sins, as Anders explains them, but the demon that attacks the party during A New Path is a pride demon. There are demons of various types in Bartrand's mansion even though he is a dwarf, and they don't have those same beliefs (I am assuming Bartrand is not an Andrastian because Varric's remarks seem to suggest that he more into the whole "dwarf" thing than Varric himself is). You can play the entirety of DAO as a dwarf or a dalish elf, but you will still see the demons presented that way through the whole game. That doesn't have anything to do with lore, it's an inconsistency of game design, albeit a very small one that I don't hink matters much beyond conversations like this.

I suppose you could say that the demon is presented as different to everyone who looks upon it, but a statement like that is never said in the game. It would also be difficult mechanically to show that, since we can switch controlling party members and such. Presumably, when controlling Anders you would see the pride demon, but when controlling Merrill you would see something else. Even if that's feasible, it's a clumsy way to show it outside of a cinematic setting.

Is it a matter of visual presentation or presentation in language and lore? I never got the impression that the appearance of any demon/spirit differed from person to person (unless of course, said entity is using illusion or playing Jedi tricks on the mind) - merely it was a matter of perspective on what the entity represented. 

A pride demon simply may be universally referred to as a "pride" demon. Codex entries are, more often than not (from what I recall), written by humans. The codex entry for the pride demon is written by Vheren, templar-commander of Tantervale. So while the deadly sin designation may be tied to matters of the Chantry/Andraste, etc, "pride" may have become the common identifier for that type of demon and the focus of its powers/tactics. But, I didn't do a DA:O run with a Dalish elf, therefore I'm not aware if within dialogue there is some inconsistency with how the entity is referred. 

The appearance of the demon may be seen as something wondrous and beautiful to behold by the Dalish (after all, pride demons do share that whole horn/antler thing with the halla ) - it may just be in how that entity's powers are used that determines, for the elves, if that entity is something to embrace or not. It just seems to me that certain demons/spirits will look the same, regardless of the race of the character encountering it. So, the "packaging" of the entity is constant, as it were. But how it is perceived (accepted or avoided) differs between groups of people. And maybe it's the qualities embodied by the entity that is what may be the reflection from the mortal world - that, from the viewpoint of the Chantry's teachings, the entity is molding itself internally based on what it sees in the mortal world, but steps into that world (or into mortal awareness) as a great horned creature. 

[nightscrawl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Is it a matter of visual presentation or presentation in language and lore? I never got the impression that the appearance of any demon/spirit differed from person to person (unless of course, said entity is using illusion or playing Jedi tricks on the mind) - merely it was a matter of perspective on what the entity represented.

I'm trying to be very literal about this subject in only how the game displays them to us, the player. You see these demons in the game called Desire Demon, Rage Demon, Pride Demon, along with a slew of other entities. Other than ones involved in specific quests, they're all named that and all have the same appearance. This is true for DAO as well as DA2.

The developers have to either design the game around the lore, or shape the lore to fit what they are capable of designing. There can't be a middle ground on this or else the universe they are building doesn't hold up. So you either have everything taken on faith, witnessed events/beings that support someone's beliefs, or witnessed events/beings that show that no one's beliefs are accurate.


And... this has gotten really far off topic. Sorry about that.

[Ellestor]

Maria Caliban wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

...sexist to men?

Things that don't exist:
Santa Claus
The Easter Bunny
Reverse Racism
Heterophobia
Sexism against men

If you want to talk about how gender roles negatively affect men and women, that's fine, but that's not the same as sexism.

I'm pretty sure a dictionary will tell you that's exactly something that it is.

Misandry lacks the culturally recognized and approved institutions that misogyny has had, thereby women have had the greater fight, but are you really saying it characterizes nobody's views and attitudes toward the male sex?

Using a popular recent example, what on Earth is this?

Modifié par Ellestor, 27 avril 2012 - 01:06 .

[nightscrawl]

Ellestor wrote...

Even if that weren't the case, however, then how on Earth would you characterize, say, Valerie Solanas' views on the male sex?

One (or even several) persons' views are not the same thing as institutionalized sexism. If you're talking about a company designing a game it would be the institutional kind because the company, rather than an individual, is doing it through their product(s) -- I'm certainly not saying that about any company here, just illustrating my point.

As long as we're throwing these terms around, we may as well distinguish between sexist and chauvinist. A sexist is someone who discriminates based on their chauvinism (belief that one gender is superior to the other). However, a chauvinist is not necessarily a discriminatory sexist.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 avril 2012 - 01:28 .

[Pappi]

so...anyone else want Jowan as a party member?

[berelinde]

Pappi wrote...

so...anyone else want Jowan as a party member?

Sure, why not? I imagine he's still got the worst luck in Thedas, but he's had time to mature somewhat.

[Pappi]

He was supposed to be a compaion too, his backstory is interesting, he reminds me of Rincewind for some reason...and I want to go to the mage prison to see Lily!! Plus it'd be nice to see a bloodmage who was a bit more sympathic...no offense Merill fans.

Modifié par Pappi, 27 avril 2012 - 06:06 .

[ohnotherancor]

I really want Charade as a party member.

Jowan might be cool, but I think he's dead in several people's playthroughs. He always could have escaped his execution, but the whole "this person you thought was dead isn't really dead" is already sort of overused in the series.

[berelinde]

He reminds me of Rincewind *a lot*. Maybe that's why I like him and feel so much sympathy for him.

[BubbleDncr]

I thought Jowan was a bit too whiny, really...

[smallwhippet]

I wanted to give him a chance to redeem himself, so I tried to send him into the Fade to rescue Conor, but he was just too darn puny!

[brushyourteeth]

Maybe this has already been discussed but I would really like to see Fergus Cousland in "The Next Thing."

Unless I'm mistaken, no matter what your origin in DA:O he still survives Ostagar but his wife and son are killed by the bastard Howe and his men.

If the writers found a way to make his character interesting (and by interesting I don't mean fanatical or possessed) I think he'd make an amazing companion or quest-involved NPC.

[brushyourteeth]

Filament wrote...

Jowan and Emile for LIs.

[Blessed Silence]

Dejajeva wrote...

I looked for something similar, but didn't see anything recently.

Thought we could put a list together of some of the things we'd love to see changed or added for companion interactions and LI interactions so it's all in one place.

My Wishes

1. I think this goes without saying, as it's pretty obvious it's a pretty standard desire for most of us on here, but in general more interaction with our companions, like in DAo. Companions in DA2 were great, but I felt like it was very...scheduled. I'd like more backstory and more banter. 

2. More friendship scenes and options. Especially with girls, if you're a girl. For instance, I loved being besties with Isabella, but I felt like the friendship, even with no romance, was still kind of flirty. Would have been cool to have some girl talk, and not just one line about what sex with whoever I'm having sex with is like randomly.

3. More relationships between companions. Love interest relationships. Kind of like Fenris and Isabella, though you really don't see that very much, but it's implied. I think that'd be cool.

4. Love interests/companions without mommy-issues, daddy-issues, mage-issues, slavery-issues, templar-issues, sex-issues, sibling-issues. Listen, I'm all for backstory and deep characters, I mentioned that above. And as much as I love Anders and Fenris the constant. every. damn. conversation. ****ing. got very old very quickly, and sometimes, I just wanted a normal person who didn't have so many issues. Kind of like a male version of Aveline. But the only two normal characters, Aveline and Varric- the ones with the least amount of issues, were non-romanceable.  Sometimes I thought- the sarcastic dwarf with too much chest hair is looking mighty fine right about now.

5. Longer romances. Or at least a longer build up, or maybe a more involved build up. And more letting down flirts more easily. For instance, with Anders...there are like four or five romance scenes. It goes like this:  

Anders "I love you, but you can't love me because I'm very bad for you!"
Hawke "Um...okay, don't be upset!"
Anders "We're going to be together forever! I'll come over later for some nookie."
Hawke "But...what just happened? I mean I kind of dig the hair, but..."
Anders "I know we just had sex for the first time, but can I move in?"
Hawke "What?."
Anders "I love you so much, lets go blow up a Chantry"
Hawke "......"

And to top it off, she doesn't even get a KISS before they all run off to get killed by whoever. I know it's a video game, but even Isabella doesn't move that fast. Oh, well maybe that's a bad example. lol.

Anyway, those are just a few of my wishes for companions and love interests in the next game.

For me, story and companions are what make the game so enjoyable- would love to hear your thoughts.

I couldn't agree more with your #1 request.  Though I loved all my companions, the interactions did feel scripted (like DA:Awakenings did) and not really a part of them (even though ll the ads for it said so).  Heck I just killed off Anders alot so I can hear Varric comment about Anders' dying ...

Isabella is kind of a bad example (IMO) with your #2 wish, but I do understand what you mean.  Oddly enough I really connetced with Aveline and ALWAYS had her every playthrough.  I would love more connections like that.  It's kind of hard to explain why ... a combination of her voice actress, her look, her writing ... and just how she was I guess.

I think #3 would have been great.  If you don't get with one companion, who is to say they don't look at another?  I mean I don't expect Anders and Merril to have gotten along, but seeing something between Merril and Fenris would have been interesting, etc

Wholeheartedly agree with your #4 wish.  Couldn't have said it any better!

The romances in general felt quite forced and short yes.  Look, there is nothing wrong with making a game take forever to play.  I played Blue Dragon, a JRPG in 72+ hours ... HOURS.  I knocked out DA2 in a fricking weekend practically ... erm ....

Companions do make a story.  Make them mean something and not just a one night stand or occasional sound box for the main character.  I cannot say how upset and disappointed I was (and still am) that Sebastian, Aveline, Varric ... even Merril got the shaft when it came down to backstory ... and lord help me when I broke my rear romancing Sebastien and NEVER even got an acknowledgement by Varric in the end ... DLC or not (it isn't that hard to bring the VO in to say the lines!!).

All in all, I am VERY jaded about DA3 especially being burned from DA2 and other games in the past year or so.  I fell into all the companion and story hype, and though I did enjoy DA2 and the DLC that came out, I don't think I will be pre-ordering the game this time around and wait some time before I get it.

[Pasquale1234]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Maybe this has already been discussed but I would really like to see Fergus Cousland in "The Next Thing."

Unless I'm mistaken, no matter what your origin in DA:O he still survives Ostagar but his wife and son are killed by the bastard Howe and his men.

If the writers found a way to make his character interesting (and by interesting I don't mean fanatical or possessed) I think he'd make an amazing companion or quest-involved NPC.

That could be very interesting if the role he would play would make sense.

One of my female Cousland Wardens put Anora on the throne and setup Fergus to go a-courting Her Majesty.