brushyourteeth wrote...
Merrill, Marethari, and Zathrian all talk about spirits frequently. I really have no idea where you got the idea that the Dalish religion doesn't recognize them. True, they don't believe the story about the Maker creating them, but they definitely agree that they're real. That's not just a chantry thing, that's a mage thing. Any mage will tell you that both spirits and the fade are real.
You misunderstood me. I’m not claiming the Dalish don't believe in the existence of spirits, I'm addressing that the Dalish don’t adhere to the
Andrastian view of spirits and demons – which is why I provided an excerpt from a conversation between Merrill and Anders about the Fade and the denizens of the Fade, where Anders’ makes it clear that spirits and demons are tied to Andrastian religious teachings, while Merrill talks about spirits from a different mindset as a Dalish elf who doesn’t share his religious views. Allow me to provide it here:
Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.
Varric: You can say that again.
Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins...
Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...
This is the crux of my statement. Merrill and the Dalish believe in spirits, but not in the Andrastian view of spirits and demons, which is tied to the Andrastian religious teachings of the Andrastian Chantry. The fact that Anders says demons are sins is a sign that his views are Andrastian, which explains why Merrill doesn't share them. Merrill uses the term ‘spirits,’ but not in the same fashion as Andrastians do. She doesn’t see them as “Children of the Maker” like Anders and the Andrastians do, she views them as denizens of the Fade who are as different and varied as humans on Thedas are. She doesn’t view some spirits as “demons” and I’m not sure why you think any Dalish would – as Anders makes it clear that demons are spirits who turned their back on the Maker. Why would the Dalish believe some spirits turned their back on the Maker, when they believe in the Creators? That makes no sense.
The Dalish have different views about it than Andrastians do. For instance, the Dalish call the Fade the “Beyond.” I don’t know why you think the Dalish would adhere to Andrastian teachings on spirits and demons, when the distinction between spirits and demons (in Andrastian terms) is tied directly to the Andrastian faith. Contrary to what you think, Merrill made it explicitly clear that she views all spirits as “dangerous,” because there’s no such thing as a “good spirit” in her eyes.
Despite the denizens of the Fade being different, that doesn’t mean the Chantry is correct. As Merrill says, humans on Thedas are varied and different – but they are, nevertheless, human. It’s no different with Merrill’s argument to Anders that, despite being different, the spirits of the Fade are simply that – spirits. Not spirits and demons in the Andrastian sense.
brushyourteeth wrote...
Anders is pretty doubtful about Andrastianism but he and Marethari both agree that there are malevolent spirits in the Fade. They don't have to take the Chantry's word for it or believe the creation/rejection story - they've actually met both kinds. It's why she goes to such great lengths to help Feynriel and prevent him from losing control. Spirits get angry/selfish/whatever and take over people's bodies and ruin their lives. That's just a fact in the world David Gaider has written.
Actually, Anders is a firm Andrastian, with the distinction being that he doesn't believe in the Chantry controlled Circles. However, he believes in the fable of the Golden City (Tevinter Amulet), and he constantly argues with Merrill because her Dalish views conflict with his Andrastian views (as you can see from the excerpts of their dialogue). However, the existance of dangerous spirits doesn't necessitate the idea that the Chantry is correct about their version of spirits and demons. I'll allow Merrill explain that one:
Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.
As Merrill explains, all spirits are dangerous. That doesn't mean the Chantry's religious teachings about their version of spirits and demons is correct.
brushyourteeth wrote...
As to Merrill being more educated in the Dalish religion than Marethari is, that's obviously something you really want to believe because the whole blood magic thing interests you and that's fine.
What does the Eluvian have to do with the Dalish religion? I specifically addressed the subject of the Eluvian, not the dichotomy between Andrastian and Dalish religious teachings, when I addressed that Merrill “studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard,” while Marethari basically went from one baseless assumption about the Eluvian to another. I trust Merrill over Marethari because Merrill actually did the research on the subject on the Eluvian (based on what Gaider explained in the forums), while Marethari doesn’t seem to have put in the same effort based on her flimsy and ever-changing arguments about the Eluvian.
brushyourteeth wrote...
Indeed! It seems we're destined to confound each other, you and I. 
And since we're involved in kind of a two-person conversation, we should probably either drop it or move it to a private message. I'm fine with just accepting that you interpret the Thedas lore very differently than I do.
It’s not a matter of interpretation when the characters make it explicitly clear:
Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.
Merrill: Did I ask you?
Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.
Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.
Right from the mouths of the characters themselves.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 juin 2012 - 01:37 .
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