1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Dejajeva wrote...

I'm not a lesbian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming most gays and lesbians don't need to define themselves by their sexuality.

Yes, I'm defined by my sexuality.

I'm also defined by my gender, race, height, job, nationality, appearance, interests, language, education, etc, but sexuality is a big one.

Dejajeva wrote...

If Bioware starts turning in game events into showing prejudice from NPCs against gays and lesbians I'll be very disappointed. There's enough of that in real life.

Agreed.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 avril 2012 - 01:22 .

[VampOrchid]

I like a little bit of everything on my burger...

So for me, I like having options...I like having the ability to have a cutesy romance option (ex. Alistair) and then a angsty one (ex.Anders) so having choices between those types in one game would be nice. DA we basically got cutesy all around and then DA2 we got angsty, accept Seb, but that was still sad

I would REALLY love to see Cullen as a party member next game, specially if the game is going to focus around what I think it is. I think he has the capabilities to be able to have both of those romances...depending on what your character would be classed as. It would be a nice twist. Mage you get angsty lovin with Cullen, Rogue/warrior you would get a cutesy one. Just like if you were a Mage with a different party member you could get a cutsy romance and maybe if you were a Rogue that same party member would be all grrr with you.

I hope that made sense. It did for me. Well the lingo did anyways, hope I got the idea across.

As for party members I would like to see. Ones that basically where their story have been 'resolved' in some form like game, comic, novels...ect. To me, Anders, Alistair, Morrigan...done. I would love to see Cullen (duh) Sebastian, Fenriel (i don't know why, but more as a little bro then anything), Varric because I know how much Devs like their dwarves...Jowan, call me silly, but it could be fun...You would have to pick between him or another mage, or if you invite him into the party Cullen would leave, something dramatic...ooh fun...

Also, I would like to see a lady of the Chantry...It would be nice and different. Female Quanri and for some reason Fergus. I've always liked him. But above all that templar Cullen.

Btw, I liked how the Mabari was added to the party in DA2. I like that he was there, but not taking up a companion spot. Oh and I thought of this the other night. It would be cool, if in your home, you had a library, and every time you found new info a book would be added. I don't know why, it just seemed like a neat idea to me.

[Brockololly]

Deviija wrote...
Any romance is going to be PC-sexual anyway.

Ultimately, thats my main contention- they shouldn't be PC-sexual. Give the NPCs more defined preferences and defined traits. To me, that makes them more interesting characters and lays the groundwork for more potential conflict. Like how Samara shuts down Shepard since she's just not in her code. Or Aveline is more interested in that other guard. I want more reactivity from the NPCs towards the PC that I create.

I'll just go back to this quote from Chris Avellone:

What, in your opinion, are the crucial elements for a good RPG these days?

The range of character development and customization, and reactivity to  that character choice and development within the game world. The more  you can do to bring story, world, and characters into the equation, the  better, but ultimately, players want to build the character they want, customize their character, and then have the world respond appropriately through dialogue choices, ways to solve quests, or even NPC's reactions to your character's purple mohawk.

I want the NPCs to react to the PC I've created. So if that means I made a male character and Alistair is straight, not being able to romance him is a consequence to the choice I made in character creation of making my PC male. Or maybe if you give your PC blonde hair and blue eyes, some female NPC won't like you initially  because her ex had blonde hair and blue eyes and you remind her of him.

Johnny Jaded wrote...
Tangetially related, another thing that makes the world feel less real is the  excessive reusing of previously seen characters - DA2 brought back no  less than 10, some as companions, others as cameos or quest-related  NPCs: Anders/Justice, Isabela, Merrill (not to mention the rest of the  Marethari clan), Bodahn and Sandal, Cullen, Alistair, Leliana, Delilah  & Nathaniel Howe, Sketch, Flemeth (though I'm willing to overlook  this one for obvious reasons) - this makes the world feel far smaller  than it should to me, as a player.

Granted, I can mentally justify some of the cameos given that Kirkwall is right next door to Ferelden geographically. But I agree- if we're going to be playing as new PC's every game, then give all new companion characters and only bring back old characters if its absolutely essential and makes sense for the story. Never mind how bugged imports can completely throw you out of the experience, but seeing old characters with a new PC often times just creates a disconnect for me. Its not the same as cameos in something like Mass Effect where the player's knowledge is in line with Shepard and you can react appropriately.

Especially with companion characters that were old LIs of old PCs- don't toss some old LI in the game as some cameo or companion character for the new PC  while essentially handwaving away the old PC's relationship they had. Some things are just better left alone.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[VampOrchid]

I'm so happy I'm not the only one wanting to see Cullen more

[berelinde]

JadeSelket wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The icons in DA2 really sucked a lot of the fun out of the romances. There was none of the surprise and fun in discovering a line of romantic dialogue. There was no feeling that you had actually accomplished something. Just keep picking the heart icon and you're set.

The icon also created a disconnect between the player and the character. Rather than it feeling like a conversation, like in BG2, JE and DA:O, it felt like "Oh there's that heart icon again, guess I've have select that if I want this romance option."

I couldn't agree more. It was nice not to know which option to pick in DA:O because I had to actually think about it. More times than not I spoke the responses out loud before picking one, wondering whether i, or my warden would say this or that. In DA2 it was too basic. Too "1-2-3, follow the yellow brick road", for me.

I understand why it was done the way it was, but I have to agree with both of you.

Yes, the heart icons did help prevent ninjamancing, but I don't mind ninjamancing. OK, there was that one awkward moment when I realized that by humoring Leliana, she thought we were in a romance, but that was easily resolved with a pleasant "I like you as a friend," which she didn't seem to mind at all. When I *do* actually like the NPC, that sudden flirt after a stint of being supportive is a heck of a rush. The first time Zevran hit on my Warden, I melted. It was beautifully done. Yes, I did know that he was available as a love interest to male protagonists, but there was a thrill of spontaneity that was sadly lacking in the DA2 romances.

[LolaLei]

VampOrchid wrote...

I'm so happy I'm not the only one wanting to see Cullen more

LOL I'm surprised he wasn't a companion in DA2, though in hindsight I'm glad he wasn't... I think there will be more potential for him in DA3.

[LolaLei]

berelinde wrote...

JadeSelket wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The icons in DA2 really sucked a lot of the fun out of the romances. There was none of the surprise and fun in discovering a line of romantic dialogue. There was no feeling that you had actually accomplished something. Just keep picking the heart icon and you're set.

The icon also created a disconnect between the player and the character. Rather than it feeling like a conversation, like in BG2, JE and DA:O, it felt like "Oh there's that heart icon again, guess I've have select that if I want this romance option."

I couldn't agree more. It was nice not to know which option to pick in DA:O because I had to actually think about it. More times than not I spoke the responses out loud before picking one, wondering whether i, or my warden would say this or that. In DA2 it was too basic. Too "1-2-3, follow the yellow brick road", for me.

I understand why it was done the way it was, but I have to agree with both of you.

Yes, the heart icons did help prevent ninjamancing, but I don't mind ninjamancing. OK, there was that one awkward moment when I realized that by humoring Leliana, she thought we were in a romance, but that was easily resolved with a pleasant "I like you as a friend," which she didn't seem to mind at all. When I *do* actually like the NPC, that sudden flirt after a stint of being supportive is a heck of a rush. The first time Zevran hit on my Warden, I melted. It was beautifully done. Yes, I did know that he was available as a love interest to male protagonists, but there was a thrill of spontaneity that was sadly lacking in the DA2 romances.

I was the same with Alistair, I thought he was a funny character and was enjoying the banter then all of a sudden the flirt option comes up and I'm like "oooooo" it was a nice surprise that was desperately lacking in DA2.

[Mmw04014]

I completely agree that I don't want player-sexual characters.

I find it really contrived that Isabela would fall in love with someone she was in a rivalry with. Or Anders falling for someone who thinks mages should be locked up. Or Fenris to sleep with a Hawke who takes Orana as a slave. I want my characters to have consequences for their actions and how they treat their companians and if that means being locked out of a particular romance, then so be it.

[Maria Caliban]

Mmw04014 wrote...

I just enjoy romancing straight characters sometimes. I just do. I don't think we should cut out same sex romances and don't think EVERYONE should be straight, but sometimes I like romancing a character I know is only interested in the opposite gender. I'm sure some gay gamers would like to be able to romance a character that was only interested in thier own sex for once, which is something I'm totally in favor of. I'm actually really proud of Mass Effect 3 for including same sex exclusive romances and I would probably be playing them right now if I had the emotional stamina to put myself through another ME3 run.

That's the thing, the gay characters are addendums. Not squad-members, little dialogue, no personal quests, and no part in the plot.

If David came in and said, “Don’t worry Maria, we’ll have a same-sex romance and it will get just as much attention as the straight one and the gay companion will be just as relevant as any straight companion,” I’d be fine.

Oh, I’d still prefer all bisexual love interests, but I’ve yet to encounter a BioWare romance I disliked, so I assume I’d enjoy myself when the game came out.

I don’t think any of the developers are going to say that though.

Fact is that a man romancing a woman is very different from a man romancing a man and the fact that the game hardly recognizes this is jarring.

If you say so.

How would you change the romances for Anders, Merril, Isabela, and Fenris for different genders?

[VampOrchid]

LolaLei wrote...


I was the same with Alistair, I thought he was a funny character and was enjoying the banter then all of a sudden the flirt option comes up and I'm like "oooooo" it was a nice surprise that was desperately lacking in DA2.

Agreed it was a pleasent surprise. Just the romance cut scene....'shutters'

[VampOrchid]

LolaLei wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...

I'm so happy I'm not the only one wanting to see Cullen more

LOL I'm surprised he wasn't a companion in DA2, though in hindsight I'm glad he wasn't... I think there will be more potential for him in DA3.

I can't agree more, if he would have been in DA2 he might have been romancable by Hawke, for me...Too much Amell for him. And DA2 was really Mage focused, it would have seemed wrong to have the romance enter there. Well that's just MHO.

[the_one_54321]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

Deviija wrote...
I really do not understand the argument against more choices, particularly with romances.

No one is arguing against more choice, just that characters be more realistic and analogous of the real world as they were in Origins. Though I concede that less choice would technically be a result.

Johnny speaks the truth. I'm interested in characters, not story place-holders.

Although, I would be willing to compromise if it meant that each character would get significantly more attention and a larger role in the scheme of the story.

[Restraint]

Mmw04014 wrote...

I completely agree that I don't want player-sexual characters.

I find it really contrived that Isabela would fall in love with someone she was in a rivalry with. Or Anders falling for someone who thinks mages should be locked up. Or Fenris to sleep with a Hawke who takes Orana as a slave. I want my characters to have consequences for their actions and how they treat their companians and if that means being locked out of a particular romance, then so be it.

That's just an argument against rivalry romances, not bisexual or PC-sexual characters.

Personally I love the idea of rivalry romances, although I think rivalry was probably too interchangeable with simple dislike in DA2 which caused situations like the above.

Ideally the characters would all be bisexual with a unique relationship for each gender, but I'll still take a single romance with a pronoun switch over having what would invariably be the most interesting romance option be straight only. That annoyed me with Morrigan.

[Maria Caliban]

The DA II characters never felt like 'placeholders' to me. I see them as equal to the DA:O characters and superior to the ME 1 characters.

[LolaLei]

VampOrchid wrote...

LolaLei wrote...


I was the same with Alistair, I thought he was a funny character and was enjoying the banter then all of a sudden the flirt option comes up and I'm like "oooooo" it was a nice surprise that was desperately lacking in DA2.

Agreed it was a pleasent surprise. Just the romance cut scene....'shutters'

Lol the romance scene in DA:O or DA2? I thought the ones in DA2 were severely lacking, they didn't even feel particularly romantic or heated.

To use Cullen as an example (any excuse eh!) I'd hope to see the romance/sex scene to start out nervously but quickly turned heated (especially with a mage PC) since the guy is clearly very inexperienced and probably overwhelmed at all the new thoughts and feelings hes experiencing, not to mention he's probably not supposed to be doing the freaknasty with anyone let alone a mage of all things. The romance/sex scenes should be individual to each companions personality and the personality/attributes of the PC should come into play too, for example if my PC is a mage then maybe magic should be involved in the scene, like the PC glowing or using a spell to pull the LI close to him/her etc, if he/she is a rogue then a dagger could be used to rip the LI's clothes open... fun stuff like that.

Modifié par LolaLei, 03 avril 2012 - 01:54 .

[Mmw04014]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

I just enjoy romancing straight characters sometimes. I just do. I don't think we should cut out same sex romances and don't think EVERYONE should be straight, but sometimes I like romancing a character I know is only interested in the opposite gender. I'm sure some gay gamers would like to be able to romance a character that was only interested in thier own sex for once, which is something I'm totally in favor of. I'm actually really proud of Mass Effect 3 for including same sex exclusive romances and I would probably be playing them right now if I had the emotional stamina to put myself through another ME3 run.

That's the thing, the gay characters are addendums. Not squad-members, little dialogue, no personal quests, and no part in the plot.

If David came in and said, “Don’t worry Maria, we’ll have a same-sex romance and it will get just as much attention as the straight one and the gay companion will be just as relevant as any straight companion,” I’d be fine.

Oh, I’d still prefer all bisexual love interests, but I’ve yet to encounter a BioWare romance I disliked, so I assume I’d enjoy myself when the game came out.

I don’t think any of the developers are going to say that though.

Fact is that a man romancing a woman is very different from a man romancing a man and the fact that the game hardly recognizes this is jarring.

If you say so.

How would you change the romances for Anders, Merril, Isabela, and Fenris for different genders?

Yes, ME3 same sex exclusive characters are not squadmates but they are there (which is two more than ME1 and ME2 had) and from what I've seen of their scenes, they are pretty well done. Their lack of depth I think stems a lot from just not being in the previous two games. But again, I haven't played them myself so I can't truly say how well done they are.

Regardless, I'm cautiously optimistic of Dragon Age featuring a gay companion who is super integral to the plot. Maybe it won't be in the next game, because it still would be an option for a minority within a minority, but Mass Effect confirmed to me that they are headed in the right direction.

And it would probably be folly for me to try and give suggestions on how to make DA2's more gender specific. I'm not a writer so anything I came up with would probably be terrible. I just remember specific lines of Alistairs romance, such as calling the PC beautiful, claiming she wasn't like "other" girls, giving the player a rose, etc, which I don't think would translate as well for a male PC and would have to be reworked. I admit, it isn't JUST this issue I have with the DA2 romances over the Origins ones, but it exasperates the problem that I don't think the DA2 romances were deep enough.

[Mmw04014]

Restraint wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

I completely agree that I don't want player-sexual characters.

I find it really contrived that Isabela would fall in love with someone she was in a rivalry with. Or Anders falling for someone who thinks mages should be locked up. Or Fenris to sleep with a Hawke who takes Orana as a slave. I want my characters to have consequences for their actions and how they treat their companians and if that means being locked out of a particular romance, then so be it.

That's just an argument against rivalry romances, not bisexual or PC-sexual characters.

Personally I love the idea of rivalry romances, although I think rivalry was probably too interchangeable with simple dislike in DA2 which caused situations like the above.

Ideally the characters would all be bisexual with a unique relationship for each gender, but I'll still take a single romance with a pronoun switch over having what would invariably be the most interesting romance option be straight only. That annoyed me with Morrigan.

It is an argument against PC sexual LI's. They like you no matter if you do things that go against who they are fundamentally as a person. It has less to do with "Fenris should like someone that he gives rivalry points to," and more to do with "Fenris thinks this action is completely and utterly wrong yet he'll bone me anyway." There are certain actions that go beyond rivalry and beyond what the point system allowed. Hawke owning a slave shouldn't give Fenris rivalry points, it should make him hate me.

[berelinde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If David came in and said, “Don’t worry Maria, we’ll have a same-sex romance and it will get just as much attention as the straight one and the gay companion will be just as relevant as any straight companion,” I’d be fine.

You see, that's the thing. If David came in and said "Don't worry, DA fan, we'll have a same-sex romance, etc.," I wouldn't be fine. No, I have absolutely no problem playing same-sex romance options. Half the time I play, that's what I'm playing. I would object to there being only one.

Let's compare DA:O with DA2. In DA2, there were two same-sex options. I loved Zevran to itty-bitty pieces. I disliked Leliana as much as I liked Zevran. As a result, all the same-sex DA:O games I played were m/m. It actually worked out well, though. Morrigan was not my cup of tea, either, so if I wanted to romance Alistair, I rolled a female PC, and if I wanted to romance Zevran, I rolled a male PC. In DA2, all of the romances were available to both genders. I liked Isabela, so I finally got to play my f/f game, but I liked Anders, too, so I had a hard time choosing between them.

TL; DR: I prefer the DA2 "They're all bi" system. No matter which gender I wanted to play on that playthrough, the character I wanted to romance was interested.

[Dave of Canada]

As giving every character gender-related conflict would take time which I don't have, I'll just quickly cover one character as an example. Let's go with Merrill.

You're Male Hawke, you're in love with Merrill and you start sleeping with her and she's worried about betraying her people even more than she normally would incase she's become pregnant (hypothetical worry), as elf/human pairings aren't helping the elves at all. You face more prejudice by the Dalish clan and you deal with that huge (or small) mess of drama.

On the other hand, you're Female Hawke and you romance Merrill. The Dalish don't care much for you, though they know you won't breed human offspring with her and thus feel more comfortable with it and thus there's less drama, however Merrill still worries about the future and her race, maybe dealing with more future child drama but in another fashion.

Ect.

[Restraint]

Mmw04014 wrote...

It is an argument against PC sexual LI's. They like you no matter if you do things that go against who they are fundamentally as a person. It has less to do with "Fenris should like someone that he gives rivalry points to," and more to do with "Fenris thinks this action is completely and utterly wrong yet he'll bone me anyway." There are certain actions that go beyond rivalry and beyond what the point system allowed. Hawke owning a slave shouldn't give Fenris rivalry points, it should make him hate me.

That's not the definition of PC-sexual, though. At least not as far as I understand it. PC-sexual is just another way of saying in the PC's case the companion's attraction transcends gender, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it transcends morality, politics, or anything else.

[Mmw04014]

Restraint wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

It is an argument against PC sexual LI's. They like you no matter if you do things that go against who they are fundamentally as a person. It has less to do with "Fenris should like someone that he gives rivalry points to," and more to do with "Fenris thinks this action is completely and utterly wrong yet he'll bone me anyway." There are certain actions that go beyond rivalry and beyond what the point system allowed. Hawke owning a slave shouldn't give Fenris rivalry points, it should make him hate me.

That's not the definition of PC-sexual, though. At least not as far as I understand it. PC-sexual is just another way of saying in the PC's case the companion's attraction transcends gender, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it transcends morality, politics, or anything else.

Yeah, we have different definitions of the word. I don't think it stops at gender, but includes anything, such as appearance, actions, race, etc. The further Bioware can get away from that the better, in my opinion. They can then create more defined characters with their own thoughts and opinions outside the influence of the almighty PC.

[Dejajeva]

Let's say that Anders is your only gay romance option. You have to like the whiny irritating mage or your just **** out of a romance option. I think its just limiting.

[Merci357]

Dejajeva wrote...

Let's say that Anders is your only gay romance option. You have to like the whiny irritating mage or your just **** out of a romance option. I think its just limiting.

And that's why I think all romances should be open to the player, if they wish so.

[slashthedragon]

Dejajeva wrote...

Let's say that Anders is your only gay romance option. You have to like the whiny irritating mage or your just **** out of a romance option. I think its just limiting.

There would probably be two other bi characters though.