Javik basically contradicts everything we already knew about the Protheans. I get that they weren't a known quantity, really, but.. why do they have Jamaican accents or whatever? We had already talked to Prothean VIs and heard them speaking in Mass Effect 1. They sound more like they have transatlantic accents with a dash of regality.
And why were we led to believe they were some sort of highly advanced species with great scientists if they're going to turn around and show that they were a brutal empire that subjugated everyone around them and was beaten by its own lack of diversity? When was the last time a brutal empire supported endeavors into science? I mean, we're talking about the species that almost broke the cycle.
And then there are the statues on Ilos. Why did they look the way they did? They had the tentacled beards and stuff, they looked cool. Like they had immolated themselves en masse and been left like the Romans at Pompeii. Instead, they're.. whatever Javik is. He doesn't stand out at all. Why did the Protheans have all of these statues everywhere if they weren't even related to them in the slightest?
I feel like the writers quietly retconned half of what made ME1 so compelling to begin with..
Why did they change the Protheans so much?
Débuté par
Zuka999
, avril 02 2012 01:12
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#2
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:15
Arokel
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The Inusannon (spelling?) were the predecessors of the Protheans. It was their statues on Ilos. The Prothean facility there was built atop their ruins.
Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.
Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.
#3
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:17
ediskrad327
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HOW DARE ALL THE PROTHEANS NOT SOUND LIKE AND OLD SCIENCE COMPUTER!
#4
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:18
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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I'm actually quite ok with their development.
#5
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:18
Zuka999
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Arokel wrote...
The Inusannon (spelling?) were the predecessors of the Protheans. It was their statues on Ilos. The Prothean facility there was built atop their ruins.
Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.
When and where do they say this?
Also.. why? Why is that even necessary? Because they wanted the collectors to look like bugs?
#6
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:19
Avissel
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Arokel wrote...
The Inusannon (spelling?) were the predecessors of the Protheans. It was their statues on Ilos. The Prothean facility there was built atop their ruins.
Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.
It's not really a big deal honestly. The statues weren't even that interesting looking.
As for the whole "brutal empire" thing, thats just silly. Some of the MOST brutal Empires in human history had great scientests. Javik explains it really well, the Protheans were all about "survival of the fittest" They were in charge because nobody could beat them, he even says that if somebody HAD then they would have been in charge.
#7
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:19
Grasich
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Just because they had a brutal empire didn't mean they didn't have advanced tech and "sophistication". The Roman Empire is a perfect real-world example of what they were. From the outside, they seem "civilized" and "advanced", but they weren't exactly nice to non-Romans.
#8
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:20
xsdob
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Zuka999 wrote...
Arokel wrote...
The Inusannon (spelling?) were the predecessors of the Protheans. It was their statues on Ilos. The Prothean facility there was built atop their ruins.
Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.
When and where do they say this?
Also.. why? Why is that even necessary? Because they wanted the collectors to look like bugs?
They say this when javik first is on the normandy and you get to question him about the protheians.
And they did this because the new design is a lot better than the humanoid squids molded onto their chairs. At least in my opinion.
#9
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:20
Doctoglethorpe
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I liked what they did with the Protheans. *shrug*
Sure its pretty much exactly the Mass Effect equivalent to the Rakata in Kotor, but thats fine. Makes them more interesting as a species when you throw a wrench into expectations.
Sure its pretty much exactly the Mass Effect equivalent to the Rakata in Kotor, but thats fine. Makes them more interesting as a species when you throw a wrench into expectations.
#10
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:20
GigaTheToast
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Isn't that kind of the point? The relationship between Javik and Liara centers around the fact that the prothean race turned out to be nothing like she had thought. Besides, Javik was a soldier, he doesn't represent the protheans at their peak. He wasn't even born before the reapers invaded.
Also, the statues on Ilos aren't exactly the most concrete representation of how they looked, for all you know those could have been statues of Ilos' native species. Javik's design looks much better anyway, it makes their ties to the collectors much less of a leap.
Also, the statues on Ilos aren't exactly the most concrete representation of how they looked, for all you know those could have been statues of Ilos' native species. Javik's design looks much better anyway, it makes their ties to the collectors much less of a leap.
#11
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:21
Merwanor
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Actually I really liked how the Protheans turned out, I expected them to be this great race or society that was more like Vulcans in Star Trek. Peacful and nice. Instead I got the same reaction Liara did when Javik revealed how his society really was. And the Protheans was really more of a mix of many races, the one on Ilos could have been a completly different race.
The fact that people had to pay for this character is just disgusting, I got it through the CE, so I guess I kind of payed extra for it. Greedy Bioware is greedy.
The fact that people had to pay for this character is just disgusting, I got it through the CE, so I guess I kind of payed extra for it. Greedy Bioware is greedy.
Modifié par Merwanor, 02 avril 2012 - 01:22 .
#12
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:21
Zebra3
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Like humans, Protheans probably had a lot of different accents.
Also, during your conversations with Javik he basically said that everyone in their empire eventually started calling themselves Protheans.
As for brutal empires and science, Dr. Mengle seemed to do quite well under the Hitler regime.
Also, during your conversations with Javik he basically said that everyone in their empire eventually started calling themselves Protheans.
As for brutal empires and science, Dr. Mengle seemed to do quite well under the Hitler regime.
Modifié par Zebra3, 02 avril 2012 - 01:22 .
#13
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:21
Yearlongjester
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They were social Darwinists, not power-hungry oppressors. There's a fine difference but it shows that they were pretty intelligent, if brutal. Also Javik isn't the best representative, he's a lifelong soldier living after their empire fell to the Reapers struggling to survive. He wasn't picked for being nice or because he was diplomatic, he was picked because he was an uncompromising bastard who would make sure the Reapers wouldn't take another cycle.
Basically he was the Prothean's Shepard. Would Shepard necessarily be the best rep for our species?
Basically he was the Prothean's Shepard. Would Shepard necessarily be the best rep for our species?
#14
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:21
alx119
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The whole Prothean thing is -very- well developed and written, imho really. It's like discovering that the Dinosaurs could actually talk and were a peaceful species. We only know so much of ancient species. We speculate about them given the things we discover and study, but its about that, speculation.
Vigil sounded regal because he was a caretaker for the most brilliant minds in the Prothean Empire, as well, Javik tells you that other species joined under the name of Protheans, regardless of the type of species they were, so it's safe to assume they'd have different accents and subcultures.
Vigil sounded regal because he was a caretaker for the most brilliant minds in the Prothean Empire, as well, Javik tells you that other species joined under the name of Protheans, regardless of the type of species they were, so it's safe to assume they'd have different accents and subcultures.
#15
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:23
KevShep
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Zuka999 wrote...
And why were we led to believe they were some sort of highly advanced species with great scientists if they're going to turn around and show that they were a brutal empire that subjugated everyone around them and was beaten by its own lack of diversity? When was the last time a brutal empire supported endeavors into science? I mean, we're talking about the species that almost broke the cycle.
Why did the Protheans have all of these statues everywhere if they weren't even related to them in the slightest?
Brutal empire?...You mean like Cerberus?
If Cerberus was unopposed then they WOULD have an empire, and as it stands they were every advanced for OUR cycle.
The statuse could be from the race before the protheans.
#16
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:23
Worufu
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What's weird that in the artbook on the page showing concept drawings of Protheans, there is a head with tentacles, the same that we can find on the statues on Ilos. So, someone actually thought about coming back to that.
#17
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:23
Fingertrip
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Javik and the Prothean were awesome. The Innosauns(?spelling) were the statues on Illos.
#18
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:23
joe4201
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Why is it so hard to believe that a race spanning the entire galaxy might have different sounding accents?
#19
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:23
The Smitchens
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This is one of those "not a big deal" things to me. The protheans were widely a mystery. I like the direction they went with it. It was unexpected. Added a unique depth to their culture. Javik told a tale of a time when there was a galactic empire. The biggest empires we've seen through history have merely conquered countries.
Also a good deal of it made enough sense. If they were somewhat psychic it seems easier to believe that their VIs could scan languages of other life forms and communicate in a similar way as well as the beacons that could transfer information on touch.
They probably didn't know they were ever going to include a prothean squad mate back in ME1 so they did the best they could with what they had. It's fiction. Sometimes you just have to suspend prerequisite knowledge and go with it.
Also a good deal of it made enough sense. If they were somewhat psychic it seems easier to believe that their VIs could scan languages of other life forms and communicate in a similar way as well as the beacons that could transfer information on touch.
They probably didn't know they were ever going to include a prothean squad mate back in ME1 so they did the best they could with what they had. It's fiction. Sometimes you just have to suspend prerequisite knowledge and go with it.
#20
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:24
TeaKae421
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The information we as the player and characters in the game (Liara) were going on was fragmentary at best.
The Prothean's as Javik described are far more credible IMO. The fact they had an empire was a pretty strong indication of what they were all about from the start, I don't know of many empires that were forged with an olive branch as opposed to military might.
That doesn't mean the Prothean's weren't scientists as well, but unfortunately we get very little information about Prothean society, especially before the Reapers arrived.
The Prothean's as Javik described are far more credible IMO. The fact they had an empire was a pretty strong indication of what they were all about from the start, I don't know of many empires that were forged with an olive branch as opposed to military might.
That doesn't mean the Prothean's weren't scientists as well, but unfortunately we get very little information about Prothean society, especially before the Reapers arrived.
#21
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:24
Zuka999
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Grasich wrote...
Just because they had a brutal empire didn't mean they didn't have advanced tech and "sophistication". The Roman Empire is a perfect real-world example of what they were. From the outside, they seem "civilized" and "advanced", but they weren't exactly nice to non-Romans.
The Romans also ignored every advance to come out of the Library of Alexandria. Then they burned it down. Then they spent 500 years decaying and relying on slave labor. And then they stopped existing, having never moved beyond classical technology. I think my point stands. Overbearing governments never advance technology beyond flukes, and they're infinitely more likely to supress scientific advancement because it threatens the status quo.
#22
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:24
AresXX7
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Arokel wrote...
The Inusannon (spelling?) were the predecessors of the Protheans. It was their statues on Ilos. The Prothean facility there was built atop their ruins.
Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.
The one thing that throws me for a loop, in regards to this change, is Shepard's visions.
In ME1 - we get this:
Yet, in ME2, it changes to this:
Unless I missed something, along the way, has there been any explanation for the change(s)?
#23
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:24
Aiyie
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When was the last time a brutal empire supported endeavors into science?
hmm, lets see.
Ancient Egypt and Sumeria.
Persia and Babylon.
The Roman and Ottoman Empires.
The ****'s and Soviets.
Pretty sure there are plenty of examples of pretty nasty regimes exploiting science for their own ends throughout history.
#24
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:24
Nathan Redgrave
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The Jamaican accent isn't a contradiction. If you hear one person speaking with a Southern American accent, are you going to complain that your universe has been contradicted by the guy who speaks with an Irish accent? No, you are not. Javik has a "Jamaican/African" type accent. Vigil did not. Neither did "Victory," the Prothean V.I. that Javik was speaking with during his flashback sequences, nor did the Prothean V.I. on Thessia. The Protheans, like humans, have a variety of different languages, accents, and dialects. Javik's is Jamaican. And you know what? It bleeding WORKS.
I fail to see how those two aspects are somehow mutually exclusive.
Lack of tactical diversity, specifically. And it's a valid point that would have been true even if the Protheans weren't a brutal empire. We've known since the beginning that the Protheans were a galaxy-wide empire, and they were the only spacefaring civilization ever mentioned from their own time period. If there is exactly ONE civilization, there is also exactly ONE military and thus, exactly ONE strategic doctrine.
That is what Javik was referring to. We could actually have inferred as much without him spelling it out.
Let me tell you a story about this misguided organization called Cerberus...
All joking aside, from Javik's point of view we're not talking a tyrant subjugating all of his subjects; we're talking of a species that opted to force the galaxy's denizens into a united empire for the sake of galactic stability. Call it a "road to hell is paved with good intentions" scenario, if you will. The point is that there's nothing to suggest that the Protheans were opposed to advancement. In fact, they were so focused on advancement even when it came to the evolutionary process that their worldview could be described as "hyper-Darwinian."
If you feel like "half of what made ME1 so compelling to begin with" involved the Prothean statues on Ilos and the non-Jamaican-ness of Vigil's voice actor, I suggest you re-evaluate your priorities.
And why were we led to believe they were some sort of highly advanced species with great scientists if they're going to turn around and show that they were a brutal empire that subjugated everyone
I fail to see how those two aspects are somehow mutually exclusive.
around them and was beaten by its own lack of diversity?
Lack of tactical diversity, specifically. And it's a valid point that would have been true even if the Protheans weren't a brutal empire. We've known since the beginning that the Protheans were a galaxy-wide empire, and they were the only spacefaring civilization ever mentioned from their own time period. If there is exactly ONE civilization, there is also exactly ONE military and thus, exactly ONE strategic doctrine.
That is what Javik was referring to. We could actually have inferred as much without him spelling it out.
When was the last time a brutal empire supported endeavors into science?
Let me tell you a story about this misguided organization called Cerberus...
All joking aside, from Javik's point of view we're not talking a tyrant subjugating all of his subjects; we're talking of a species that opted to force the galaxy's denizens into a united empire for the sake of galactic stability. Call it a "road to hell is paved with good intentions" scenario, if you will. The point is that there's nothing to suggest that the Protheans were opposed to advancement. In fact, they were so focused on advancement even when it came to the evolutionary process that their worldview could be described as "hyper-Darwinian."
If you feel like "half of what made ME1 so compelling to begin with" involved the Prothean statues on Ilos and the non-Jamaican-ness of Vigil's voice actor, I suggest you re-evaluate your priorities.
#25
Posté 02 avril 2012 - 01:24
Si-Shen
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Actually concidering how they portrayed the Protheans in ME1, you saw a glimps of a scientific side of their empire but only a part. Ilos was a location build on secrecy and science, not war. Javik, and related content are their military aspect. Also keep in mind that Javik's info comes from about 200 years or so after the empire fell to the initial attack.
As for the statues, they never really did say that was a prothean for sure other then that picture they left in the info page area that I can't remember its name, even the VI on Ilos was broken and did not show a body.
As for the comments about Ilos, I am not sure but I do believe that the VI mentions something about it being built ont he ruins of a past civ, therefore its not a streach to say that those statues pre-date the Protheans.
As for the statues, they never really did say that was a prothean for sure other then that picture they left in the info page area that I can't remember its name, even the VI on Ilos was broken and did not show a body.
As for the comments about Ilos, I am not sure but I do believe that the VI mentions something about it being built ont he ruins of a past civ, therefore its not a streach to say that those statues pre-date the Protheans.
