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[Zuka999]

J717 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

J717 wrote...

I'm pretty sure that BioWare did in fact retcon the Protheans...

Somewhere along the way, someone probably thought, "wouldn't it be cool if the Collectors WERE Protheans?!" and incorporated it into the story, and it was probably too late to change the "bug-like" looks of the Collectors...so they changed the Protheans to resemble a Collector instead....

They WERE supposed to be the tentacle-faced creatures on Ilos (those were not the Inusannon, the ME1 art book even says they are Protheans).

Hence, the BLATANTLY LAZY changes in flashbacks between ME1 and ME2:

Doesnt look lazy to me. Looks more than sufficient. Had you not gone out of your way to state the difference I would never have known, nor cared.

My goal wasn't to get you to care. And yes, they pasted right over the old model...how is that not lazy?

Nothing you said invalidates the fact that they retconned the Protheans....and again, whether or not you care is irrelevant to my post. It was not a validity-seeking statement. 

TarielMaeda wrote...

Oh lord you can still see the head of the original ceature poking out of the shoulder on the one on the right.

 

Like I said....lazy!

Yeah I'd completely let go everything else if this didn't seem like such a lazy retcon. Why was it even necessary?

[Mcfly616]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Javik's accent is African....particularly south African....not Jamaican....

Haha, it's definitely not south african.

Ah yes he's Nigerian....


I didn't mean South Africa....I meant the southern part of the continent....however I have been drinking and totally forgot that Nigeria was located in West Africa....I stand corrected.....either way, far from Jamaican

[ROTTOK Crapgame]

A great civilisation can be strong militarily and great scientist, philosophers and academics, take the Greeks, at their height they made the Romans look like an angry mob at pub chucking out time, Peter the Great, Alexander the Great both led the largest armies ever to have taken to the battlefield up to that point, but Aristotle, Plato and Socrates, their philosophy still taught in universities today.

And Javik says that he had known nothing but war, the Reaper invasion was already underway when he was born, no wonder hes view is a little jaded.

[bboynexus]

"It is the only box I have ever known".

[Sangheili_1337]

Zuka999 wrote...

Javik basically contradicts everything we already knew about the Protheans. I get that they weren't a known quantity, really, but.. why do they have Jamaican accents or whatever? We had already talked to Prothean VIs and heard them speaking in Mass Effect 1. They sound more like they have transatlantic accents with a dash of regality.

And why were we led to believe they were some sort of highly advanced species with great scientists if they're going to turn around and show that they were a brutal empire that subjugated everyone around them and was beaten by its own lack of diversity? When was the last time a brutal empire supported endeavors into science? I mean, we're talking about the species that almost broke the cycle.

And then there are the statues on Ilos. Why did they look the way they did? They had the tentacled beards and stuff, they looked cool. Like they had immolated themselves en masse and been left like the Romans at Pompeii. Instead, they're.. whatever Javik is. He doesn't stand out at all. Why did the Protheans have all of these statues everywhere if they weren't even related to them in the slightest?

I feel like the writers quietly retconned half of what made ME1 so compelling to begin with..

The Protheans dont have a jamaican accent. I also dont see how being a brutal empire that subjugates everyone prevents them from being a advanced species. The statues in Ilos is not Prothean.

[bboynexus]

I was always dubious about the statues. I found it unusual that Protheans would worship themselves to such an incredible extent.

[xenu101]

I can't believe any of you are fighting over Javik's accent. So you've all been to: Jamaica, Uganda, Kenya, or some other random country in Africa??? If so, then why are you playing this awful game? You should be out helping villagers dig a well or build a bridge.

Modifié par xenu101, 02 avril 2012 - 02:02 .

[rex343]

The Protheans felt like a mix of the ancient human empires like the Romans. Chinese and the Egyptians they did not seem evil or controlling more like a noble warriors than evil dictators.

[Zuka999]

ROTTOK Crapgame wrote...

A great civilisation can be strong militarily and great scientist, philosophers and academics, take the Greeks, at their height they made the Romans look like an angry mob at pub chucking out time, Peter the Great, Alexander the Great both led the largest armies ever to have taken to the battlefield up to that point, but Aristotle, Plato and Socrates, their philosophy still taught in universities today.

And Javik says that he had known nothing but war, the Reaper invasion was already underway when he was born, no wonder hes view is a little jaded.

The era when the Greeks were driving advancements in philosophy and science is not the same as the era of Alexander the Great. The Wars of the Diadochi were essentially a dark age for Greece from which they never recovered. By the time of the Roman invasions of Greece, the Greeks were just holding on to ancient teachings. All of which were destroyed in the Library of Alexandria.

Sorry, brutal governments always quell scientific advancement. if you can't see that, you're blind. Science drives change. Change is bad for governments built on subjugating people. Ergo, brutal governments always suppress science. How much does this have to be hammered into our skulls during primary school for it to be obvious?

[Raven4030-2]

Whether or not the Chinese empire had an evil dictator largely depended on who was in charge at the time. Each dynasty has its heroes and villains (up to and including the Qing).

[wathc me tyep]

They did the right thing, stop complaining.

[Shadowstalker79]

AresXX7 wrote...

Arokel wrote...

The Inusannon (spelling?) were the predecessors of the Protheans. It was their statues on Ilos. The Prothean facility there was built atop their ruins.

Not a great retconn but I am okay with it for some reason.

The one thing that throws me for a loop, in regards to this change, is Shepard's visions.

In ME1 - we get this:


Yet, in ME2, it changes to this:



Unless I missed something, along the way, has there been any explanation for the change(s)?

Its a game... things get changed along the way. What we see in game 1's visions and the looks of the Prothian statues on Ilos could be 1 of 3 things. 1... early look of what the game designers had in mind for the Prothians and later changed the look as we see this happen all the time in the course of multi-part games. 2... what we see in the visions and what we see of the statues in game 1 could very well be another race that fell under the PROTHIAN Empiers as a whole. Remember, Javik says all the races that were conquard or taken in by his people fell under the Prothian name as a whole and their past race names or empire names no longer existed as they once were.  OR... 3 the statues and the visions we see (even tho very unlikely) could be the race of the Cycle before that of the Prothians who the Prothians built their foundations on and the very race that the Prothians advanced from, just like those that advanced after the Prothians in our cycle because of us building on where they left off.

[bloodstalker1973]

Rome was technilogically advanced for its time, and were responsible for some beautiful architechture and literature. That doesn't mean a lot of their society wasn't brutal or that they didn't dominate their world through military strength. The Prothean Empire sounds a lot like the Roman Empire in some ways.

Besides, all we really knew about the Protheans is what archeologists like Liara told us. We got a rosy picture of them based on scraps of evidence examined 50,000 years after their empire fell. It would be a lot more surprising to me if Liara's version of the Protheans had been correct than it being wrong.

So basically, I think this cycle just idealized the Protheans because, well, for the same reason a lot of people today idealize the ancient Greeks or Romans.

[DPSSOC]

Zuka999 wrote...
Something about Javik just doesn't fit with the motives of the scientists we hear about on Ilos. It just doesn't add up to me. Maybe I read too much into economics and politics.

Javik wasn't a scientist, that's pretty much your explanation.  Go find yourself an accomplished, career military person and an accomplished scientist, I'm guessing they would hold rather different world views.  Furthermore who's to say what the Ilos Prothean's motives were when they froze themselves?  Maybe they went to sleep hoping to wait out the harvest and restart the Empire.  When the survivors woke up they realized that wasn't an achievable goal so they went to plan B.

[Raven4030-2]

Zuka999 wrote...

Sorry, brutal governments always quell scientific advancement. if you can't see that, you're blind. Science drives change. Change is bad for governments built on subjugating people. Ergo, brutal governments always suppress science. How much does this have to be hammered into our skulls during primary school for it to be obvious?

As I said before: Empire building, up to and including evil dictators, has been the norm throughout human history.

Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Chinese, Spanish, French (yes, the French), and English all had their big Empires and big moments in the sun which, yes, did include what today would be considered brutal tactics. And each of these Empires contributed to the collective human understanding in their own way. Each did have their moments where they damaged scientific progress, but they had their areas where it was advanced.

The idea that conquering/controlling other people for your own selfish gain might be wrong is, in fact, a NEW concept on the historical scale.

EDIT:
And as I said earlier in this thread, I would argue that the United States is keeping Imperialism alive and kicking even today. And I could make this argument without even touching the Iraq war.

Modifié par Raven4030-2, 02 avril 2012 - 02:14 .

[Lmaoboat]

xenu101 wrote...

I can't believe any of you are fighting over Javik's accent. So you've all been to: Jamaica, Uganda, Kenya, or some other random country in Africa??? If so, then why are you playing this awful game? You should be out helping villagers dig a well or build a bridge.

Africans never leave Africa or appear on TV. News at 11.

[Shadowstalker79]

As far as Javik's voice... I dont see anything wrong with it. Just because he is Prothian, that should not mean all Prothians sound the same. And as for the way Vigel sounded in game 1 (the Prothian VI) that's in no way a god representation of how they would sound. It was a VI after all.

[ibage]

I like them not looking like the Space Jockey (It's been ages since I've read the books. Someone chime in their real name).

In any case, there's philosophy behind meeting Javick. The more we idealize something and put it on a pedestal, the more unrealistic our expectations become. The Protheans were like us. They made mistakes and plenty of them at that. The harder you look for something, the more you're going to be let down when what you find isn't exactly what you thought it was

[bboynexus]

People have got to realize that Javik doesn't actually retcon established continuity. It just retcons established fan conceptions. Which is entirely different.

[Zuka999]

Raven4030-2 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Sorry, brutal governments always quell scientific advancement. if you can't see that, you're blind. Science drives change. Change is bad for governments built on subjugating people. Ergo, brutal governments always suppress science. How much does this have to be hammered into our skulls during primary school for it to be obvious?

As I said before: Empire building, up to and including evil dictators, has been the norm throughout human history.

Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Chinese, Spanish, French (yes, the French), and English all had their big Empires and big moments in the sun which, yes, did include what today would be considered brutal tactics. And each of these Empires contributed to the collective human understanding in their own way. Each did have their moments where they damaged scientific progress, but they had their areas where it was advanced.

The idea that conquering/controlling other people for your own selfish gain might be wrong is, in fact, a NEW concept on the historical scale.

EDIT:
And as I said earlier in this post, I would argue that the United States is keeping Imperialism alive and kicking even today. And I could make this argument without even touching the Iraq war.

How well a culture can systematically kill another isn't a great bar for measuring how enlightened or advanced a country is. Prior to the enlightenment and the liberation of the common man from oppression by oligarchs (a work in progress, I might add) human advancement was driven by flukes and measured in centuries. Last century, we measured decade by decade. Today we measure year by year.

These kinds of cultures aren't the greatest candidates for the one you want solving an issue of galactic survival.

[Shadowstalker79]

Lmaoboat wrote...

xenu101 wrote...

I can't believe any of you are fighting over Javik's accent. So you've all been to: Jamaica, Uganda, Kenya, or some other random country in Africa??? If so, then why are you playing this awful game? You should be out helping villagers dig a well or build a bridge.

Africans never leave Africa or appear on TV. News at 11.

what? Thats like saying Amaricans never leave America or Japanies never leave Japan. What does that have to do with anything?  To all those that did not like Javik's voice, So he had an African or maybe even Jamaican voice... its not that big of a deal.

[Star fury]

Zuka999 wrote...

Wait, a lot of you guys are actually seriously bringing up the Third Reich as an example of a country that advanced science but was also brutal? You're.. joking.. right? None of their experiments on humans advanced science in any meaningful way. Their military advances were ridiculous and almost always scrapped, save for minor rocket advances that were overcome by the Allies anyways. They also sent out groups to find Biblical artifacts so they could use them as weapons. All of the so called great minds of Germany at the time ended up working for other countries where their works weren't suppressed.

You guys might want to try again. Godwin's Law is too true.

Google name Wernher von Braun. ****sts tried to develop nuclear bomb(but failed due to fighting with Soviet Union), had ballistic and cruise missiles, jet aircraft.
As was mentioned before, Roman empire was perfect
example, so much developed and surrounded by hooplessly barbaric tribes.
The fall of the Roman empire led to Dark Ages.
Regarding Protheans I don't see a problem when empire has no problem with science and development. 

Modifié par Star fury, 02 avril 2012 - 02:22 .

[Zuka999]

bboynexus wrote...

People have got to realize that Javik doesn't actually retcon established continuity. It just retcons established fan conceptions. Which is entirely different.

I guess I'll concede this point, actually. Its just hard to think that behind the scenes those things were actually intended for what we thought they were.. especially with the lazy editing to the Beacon's visions.

[bboynexus]

They might not have been intended. But that doesn't mean it can't work.

[lothvamp]

Yearlongjester wrote...

They were social Darwinists, not power-hungry oppressors. There's a fine difference but it shows that they were pretty intelligent, if brutal. Also Javik isn't the best representative, he's a lifelong soldier living after their empire fell to the Reapers struggling to survive. He wasn't picked for being nice or because he was diplomatic, he was picked because he was an uncompromising bastard who would make sure the Reapers wouldn't take another cycle.

Basically he was the Prothean's Shepard. Would Shepard necessarily be the best rep for our species?

In one of Javik's flashbacks in his recruitment mission he's even called "Commander Javik."

And on a completely unrelated note, I thought his VA sounded more Barbados than Jamaica.