451 réponses à ce sujet

[Gerudan]

Myrmedus wrote...

I thought this was really well done actually because it was an unfair defeat. It was one of those cases where you sat there thinking: if this had been a fair fight I'd kick your ass!

And that's perfect because it angers you, which it's meant to because when you do fight him properly it feels so good.

Well, I wouldn't say, that it was done "very well", nor was it really that bad.

Forcing the player to lose is always dificult to pull of without either detach the player form what is happening or to frustrate him, because he can't do anything.

I remember this scene in DA, when you have to save the Queen from the house and on your way out you ran into this woman with like an army around her. When I played DA for the first time, this was by far the most difficult fight in the whole game and I had to reload a lot and plan everything out and got really frustrated that they would throw such a difficult fight out of nowhere at me.

Only later, when people where writing about "the escape form the prison" did I recognize, that I was supposed to lose the fight, while I tried it again and again until I finally won it.

[LinksOcarina]

Considering this was the first time Shepard failed by his own merits, meaning no outside sources kept him from failing a mission...yeah, it was kinda tough. I was glad to see him vulnerable for a moment, even when he was yelling at Joker. It also helped that Liara was feeling it too, as I was still in a romance with her, so now it had a double meaning for me, which was very good.

[Delta Sierra]

I was more angry than anything because I couldn't fight Kai Leng with all his plot armor. The fight was rigged.  I've always hated that kind of scene in a video game.

Modifié par Delta Sierra, 02 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[Andronic0s]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

I never understood what was special about Thessia, why wasn't Shep sad about palaven or earth for that matter? the game seems to imply Thessia got wiped out , but judging from earth and palaven it will take time for the reapers to do their thing and well given that endgame comes 2 missions after thessia...it would seem thessia got the lightest of the council races (except for maybe Sur'Kesh since it was never very clear to me how hard the Salarians got hit)

But as for Shep feeling sorry after the mission, that felt forced given that there was still time to get the data from cerberus since they did not destroyed the data (his reaction would have made sense if they would have), I would imagine shep to be barking orders and trying to come up with a plan to find the cerberus base rather than go cry on his cabin :-/

Palaven and Earth were pretty much the only planets that had taken some steps to prepare, so they held out longer than most.  Thessia had their head in the sand, and were easily suppressed.  The Asari never took the warnings seriously, and they fell quickly.

When is this stated? besides Earth's preparation accomplished what exactly? the fleets got owned in record time and had to retreat just to survive, effectively giving up earth, even so considering the amount of time that earth held on to while being overrun, and the fact that the mission to london takes place shortly after the mission to thessia, it seems logical to assume the damage to the asari homeworld was less thorough than the beating earth got, unless the reapers dropped a few thousand nukes on thessia or something  

That's why I felt that scene was forced, it's like the writers arbitrarily decided you should feel bad but could not find a way to do it properly or genuinely

Modifié par Andronic0s, 02 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[Vovea]

I found Kai Leng an irritating villain and nowhere near as badass as he should have been. The unavoidable loss against Saren in ME1 was forgiveable because Saren was awesome (and at least Shepard got to punch him in the face before he ran off). The loss against Kai Leng felt incredibly forced. The fight itself was pretty boring and the whole sequence felt like it had wasted potential.

When Shepard fell through the floor I thought there could have been more; Shepard without squad mates making his/her way back to the surface, fighting off husks. The cutscene where Shepard was climbing the piece of broken flooring could have had some player interaction as well. Playing through a struggle like that and arriving just as the gunship was leaving might have made me care more about the defeat.

[Menalaos1971]

robarcool wrote...

I didn't. Not one bit. I suppose the purpose of that contrived cut-scene was to make you feel that you (as Shepard) aren't invincible. But what I felt was that Kai Leng, nearly dying at my hands on Thessia (Yep, only 2-3 health bars were left before the cut scene) pulled off a 'Oh my, this guy is gonna kill me, time to bring in the gunship' and then stupidly bragged about it. Funnily enough, the crew tries to console Shepard not to take it too hard, but I the player, never felt it. Did you not feel it too or you think it was orchestrated well?

Ditto, 100%.  I HATE scripted fights that no matter what you do you aren't allowed to win them.  I could have taken him.  He never even hit me or my squad once.

Of course, he used Space Ninja magic on me... or something.

[Amagoi]

I was just annoyed I couldn't take out the gunship, then kill Leng. It's not like we didn't prove in ME2 we were easily capable of doing it. Yeah, entire thing was forced and Leng had hardcore PLOT ARMOR. He really was just a Villian Sue that was more of a major annoyance than a worthy adversary.

[Creston918]

RLesueur wrote...

I didn't really see Kai Leng as that important, he was just some random guy who in his head was as good as Shepard, but in reality was just another Cerberus operative to get shot in the face.

He was the Conrad Verner of Cerberus operatives.

:lol::lol:

[LinksOcarina]

Andronic0s wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

I never understood what was special about Thessia, why wasn't Shep sad about palaven or earth for that matter? the game seems to imply Thessia got wiped out , but judging from earth and palaven it will take time for the reapers to do their thing and well given that endgame comes 2 missions after thessia...it would seem thessia got the lightest of the council races (except for maybe Sur'Kesh since it was never very clear to me how hard the Salarians got hit)

But as for Shep feeling sorry after the mission, that felt forced given that there was still time to get the data from cerberus since they did not destroyed the data (his reaction would have made sense if they would have), I would imagine shep to be barking orders and trying to come up with a plan to find the cerberus base rather than go cry on his cabin :-/

Palaven and Earth were pretty much the only planets that had taken some steps to prepare, so they held out longer than most.  Thessia had their head in the sand, and were easily suppressed.  The Asari never took the warnings seriously, and they fell quickly.

When is this stated? besides Earth's preparation accomplished what exactly? the fleets got owned in record time and had to retreat just to survive, effectively giving up earth, even so considering the amount of time that earth held on to while being overrun, and the fact that the mission to london takes place shortly after the mission to thessia, it seems logical to assume the damage to the asari homeworld was less thorough than the beating earth got, unless the reapers dropped a few thousand nukes on thessia or something  

That's why I felt that scene was forced, it's like the writers arbitrarily decided you should feel bad but could not find a way to do it properly or genuinely

Simple reason why.

Shepard failed on Thessia. In the other cases, for Palaven it was out of his hands but you had Garrus and others doing warnings about the reapers and preparing, and as for Earth, he did what he could to warn them but it fell on deaf ears.

Thessia hit him hard because Shepard lost on his own merits ot Kai Leng, plot armor be damned. It was the first time in the entire series he "lost", and what I mean is failed a mission fully. He failed to get the Catalyst, failed to save the Asari and Thessia, and failed his crew and more importantly, his fight for Earth and the Galaxy.

So it is a personal failure that he is caring about more than the planet.

[The Anti-Saint]

When Thessia fell, I was pretty satisfied. The Asari were the elite snobs of the galaxy, and the fall of their world was karma for hoarding Prothean tech. Now, losing to KL just seemed forced...they had to give a weak villain some kind of victory, or it would have been pointless to have him in game. I was just annoyed that it had to be him and not TIM himself doing the deed; yeah, I know, TIM doesn't get his hands dirty when he has plenty of lackies to do the dirty work. 

Si-Shen wrote...
Shep's reaction was a bit much. It was more like he was throwing a tantrum to me, felt out of character.

And ^this was the other annoying part...only because I did not like the Asari, heh. It conflicted with how I felt about them. I would have written it off and moved on, but I guess that would have been too cold to overlook 5 billion or so deaths.

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 02 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[Creston918]

Gerudan wrote...

I remember this scene in DA, when you have to save the Queen from the house and on your way out you ran into this woman with like an army around her. When I played DA for the first time, this was by far the most difficult fight in the whole game and I had to reload a lot and plan everything out and got really frustrated that they would throw such a difficult fight out of nowhere at me.

Only later, when people where writing about "the escape form the prison" did I recognize, that I was supposed to lose the fight, while I tried it again and again until I finally won it.

That scene was written back before Bioware turned into EAware, and really just stopped giving two sh**s. You're SUPPOSED to lose that fight, and she is heavily overpowered, and losing it leads to a really, REALLY funny break-out scene, but if you persevere, you actually CAN win it.

And in Dragon Age, that's a valid option. The story goes on if you win the battle. It skips the break-out scene, whatsherface is dead, and life goes on. That's a WELL-WRITTEN story.

In ME3, apparently doing something similar was WAAAYYYYYY too hard for the EAware writers, so let's just throw in a sh***y cutscene.

EAware's quality has really gone down the drain in the last two games.

[Element Zero]

Calibrations Expert wrote...

The cutscene where Kai Leng "beats" you is the moment you subconsciously feel the game go down the toilet.

What I found even worse is Shepard feels all super depressed about the fall of Thessia. This is the best example of ME3's dumbed down choice system. I didn't TELL him to be depressed! Why can't I be a total hard ass about and and not give a sh*t? Why can't I just angrily hunt down Leng for no reason but to rip the VI out of his cold, dead hands?

This is so true.

As I watched all the post-Thessia drama, I thought to myself, "Man, this is sort of lame. That fool didn't even beat me. Why do they think I need so many pep-talks?".

The N7 Mission afterward was good, and Sanctuary was cool, as well. Then, we hit Cronos Station, and the final fight with Leng ruined it for me. It felt ridiculous, fighting this stupid ass ninja, again. They really should've stuck with Drew's vision of Kai Leng-- a ruthless, badass N7. Give him some cybernetics, if you must, but don't turn him into Raiden 2187.

Then, TIM tells the Reapers our plan, and they move the Citadel to Earth? <_< Did we really have to fight above Earth? Couldn't we just go to the Citadel and use the Relay Network to turn the Reapers into scrapmetal? (I'd have preferred an epic battle through the Citadel, a throwback of sorts to ME, only more epic. Show me a celebratory Earth via cutscenes.)

Things detriorated from there. The fight through London was pretty weak. I did love the initial shuttle drop into a really hot LZ. That was cool. I also loved the charge, on foot, toward the Conduit, until I realized it was another scripted fail. After failing to locate my friends' bodies, and then getting killed by Marauder Shields, I limped to the ending.

I'd have overlooked all of the shortcomings, had the endings (should've been plural, at least) had been worthy of the series. On the initial playthrough, it was more a growing sense of unease in the back of my mind, than a conscious "wow, this is weak", until the stupefying ending.

Sorry, I got on a rant, there. I guess I still have sore feelings about this game.

[Gerudan]

LinksOcarina wrote...

So it is a personal failure that he is caring about more than the planet.

It's not about the planet at all. To save Thessia was never the goal of the mission. Shep needed the information for the Crucible. Defeating Leng wouldn't have made the Reapers go way (at least not right away). 

[Cyph3rX]

Well, all things considered, I didn't really lose. I'm still alive, and the noob needed a chopper gunner killstreak to cover his escape.

[LinksOcarina]

Gerudan wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

So it is a personal failure that he is caring about more than the planet.

It's not about the planet at all. To save Thessia was never the goal of the mission. Shep needed the information for the Crucible. Defeating Leng wouldn't have made the Reapers go way (at least not right away). 

I know, I said that .

[Element Zero]

Creston918 wrote...

Gerudan wrote...

I remember this scene in DA, when you have to save the Queen from the house and on your way out you ran into this woman with like an army around her. When I played DA for the first time, this was by far the most difficult fight in the whole game and I had to reload a lot and plan everything out and got really frustrated that they would throw such a difficult fight out of nowhere at me.

Only later, when people where writing about "the escape form the prison" did I recognize, that I was supposed to lose the fight, while I tried it again and again until I finally won it.

That scene was written back before Bioware turned into EAware, and really just stopped giving two sh**s. You're SUPPOSED to lose that fight, and she is heavily overpowered, and losing it leads to a really, REALLY funny break-out scene, but if you persevere, you actually CAN win it.

And in Dragon Age, that's a valid option. The story goes on if you win the battle. It skips the break-out scene, whatsherface is dead, and life goes on. That's a WELL-WRITTEN story.

In ME3, apparently doing something similar was WAAAYYYYYY too hard for the EAware writers, so let's just throw in a sh***y cutscene.

EAware's quality has really gone down the drain in the last two games.

And beating Kai Leng needn't have changed the game, much. You could still be drawn to Horizon, likely by way of a call from Miranda. TIM could piece together what you intend, if they really believe he needs to be on the Citadel, at the end. He can still run to daddy-Harbinger to tell on you. (Lame...)

Sigh. The writing really started to fall apart, late in the game. The more I look at it, the less it impresses. It's a shame, seeing as such a high standard was set and maintained through the series to that point.

[Agamo45]

The Anti-Saint wrote...

When Thessia fell, I was pretty satisfied. The Asari were the elite snobs of the galaxy, and the fall of their world was karma for hoarding Prothean tech. Now, losing to KL just seemed forced...they had to give a weak villain some kind of victory, or it would have been pointless to have him in game. I was just annoyed that it had to be him and not TIM himself doing the deed; yeah, I know, TIM doesn't get his hands dirty when he has plenty of lackies to do the dirty work. 

Si-Shen wrote...
Shep's reaction was a bit much. It was more like he was throwing a tantrum to me, felt out of character.

And ^this was the other annoying part...only because I did not like the Asari, heh. It conflicted with how I felt about them. I would have written it off and moved on, but I guess that would have been too cold to overlook 5 billion or so deaths.

This. I thought the asari got what was coming to them, I didn't like my Shepard being FORCED to care about them. And apologizing to the asari counselor? Like wtf snap out of it stop crying like a b*tch.

[KaptainKyle]

I was dissapointed to be "defeated" by that pathetic excuse of a villain. Wipe out collectors, defeat human reaper, cure the genophage and end the geth quarian war to nearly get killed by some wannabe ninja

[Daedalus1773]

tallrickruush wrote...

Calibrations Expert wrote...

The cutscene where Kai Leng "beats" you is the moment you subconsciously feel the game go down the toilet.

What I found even worse is Shepard feels all super depressed about the fall of Thessia. This is the best example of ME3's dumbed down choice system. I didn't TELL him to be depressed! Why can't I be a total hard ass about and and not give a sh*t? Why can't I just angrily hunt down Leng for no reason but to rip the VI out of his cold, dead hands?

This is so true.

As I watched all the post-Thessia drama, I thought to myself, "Man, this is sort of lame. That fool didn't even beat me. Why do they think I need so many pep-talks?".

The N7 Mission afterward was good, and Sanctuary was cool, as well. Then, we hit Cronos Station, and the final fight with Leng ruined it for me. It felt ridiculous, fighting this stupid ass ninja, again. They really should've stuck with Drew's vision of Kai Leng-- a ruthless, badass N7. Give him some cybernetics, if you must, but don't turn him into Raiden 2187.

Then, TIM tells the Reapers our plan, and they move the Citadel to Earth? <_< Did we really have to fight above Earth? Couldn't we just go to the Citadel and use the Relay Network to turn the Reapers into scrapmetal? (I'd have preferred an epic battle through the Citadel, a throwback of sorts to ME, only more epic. Show me a celebratory Earth via cutscenes.)

Things detriorated from there. The fight through London was pretty weak. I did love the initial shuttle drop into a really hot LZ. That was cool. I also loved the charge, on foot, toward the Conduit, until I realized it was another scripted fail. After failing to locate my friends' bodies, and then getting killed by Marauder Shields, I limped to the ending.

I'd have overlooked all of the shortcomings, had the endings (should've been plural, at least) had been worthy of the series. On the initial playthrough, it was more a growing sense of unease in the back of my mind, than a conscious "wow, this is weak", until the stupefying ending.

Sorry, I got on a rant, there. I guess I still have sore feelings about this game.

Agree w/ both of these posts.

[Jonathan Sud]

 I was seriously pissed. Even more so when I saw that message he sent to my terminal.

[Vipus_Locasta]

Even while playing on Insanity as a Vanguard Kai Leng was a pretty easy fight, so I was kinda disappointed with the way Bioware ended up handling the "you're supposed to lose" kind of fight. If I remember right DA:O had something similar to this, but if you were a good enough player you could actually avoid being defeated and even skip a level where you had to scape from a Dungeon.

As for Kai Leng himself, since his poor introduction I was already wondering what a character like that was doing in ME3. After Thessia when I received that e-mail from him I could not help myself but feel sorry for the guy and the poor souls that decided he was worthy antagonist in a game like ME.

Edit: Also, since when has a Gunship given Shepard trouble? I remeber taking down at least 3 of them in ME2...

Modifié par Vipus_Locasta, 02 avril 2012 - 08:12 .

[Vexia2070]

tallrickruush wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

Gerudan wrote...

I remember this scene in DA, when you have to save the Queen from the house and on your way out you ran into this woman with like an army around her. When I played DA for the first time, this was by far the most difficult fight in the whole game and I had to reload a lot and plan everything out and got really frustrated that they would throw such a difficult fight out of nowhere at me.

Only later, when people where writing about "the escape form the prison" did I recognize, that I was supposed to lose the fight, while I tried it again and again until I finally won it.

That scene was written back before Bioware turned into EAware, and really just stopped giving two sh**s. You're SUPPOSED to lose that fight, and she is heavily overpowered, and losing it leads to a really, REALLY funny break-out scene, but if you persevere, you actually CAN win it.

And in Dragon Age, that's a valid option. The story goes on if you win the battle. It skips the break-out scene, whatsherface is dead, and life goes on. That's a WELL-WRITTEN story.

In ME3, apparently doing something similar was WAAAYYYYYY too hard for the EAware writers, so let's just throw in a sh***y cutscene.

EAware's quality has really gone down the drain in the last two games.

And beating Kai Leng needn't have changed the game, much. You could still be drawn to Horizon, likely by way of a call from Miranda. TIM could piece together what you intend, if they really believe he needs to be on the Citadel, at the end. He can still run to daddy-Harbinger to tell on you. (Lame...)

Sigh. The writing really started to fall apart, late in the game. The more I look at it, the less it impresses. It's a shame, seeing as such a high standard was set and maintained through the series to that point.

Agreed. In DA I won that fight, then on replay simply surrendered so I could have fun with saves and see all the different cut scene combos of my rescue. OMG priceless stuff.

In ME3 My imported Shep was already 50-something if I recall correctly, the space nija Kai leng fight was over very fast. My soldier Shep and two weapon welding biotics took care of him and his pals neatly. I didn't feel much of anything when I lost other than OK, it was just another cutscene that cut me out of the picture. I was soo annoyed by that alone that the plight of the asari no longer had any emotional impact on me. It all fell flat. I was being Used, just a tool again.and the whole fight was nothing but a bone to keep the action going. The plot could have just as easily been advanced had I been saving this and that group of assari and simply arrived too late and seen KL just thumbing his nose at me as I arrived and then discovered by good writting they had gotten away with something even more important than I had anticipated. Remember we had no idea what we would find. That could have been used to even greater advantage if handeled differently.  

One moment I was fighting Ninja boy - won, then the next my Shep is climbing up the side of what had been a floor I think. And I stopped careing again.

The fact I stopped careing is what bothered me the most. But at that point I was getting used to my apathy.

Sadness for the game is what I felt most of all. Seeing already what it could have been.

[Mandalore313]

I hated that part.
I generally hate scripted fights because of their scripting.
I didn't get hit once during that fight, and I kept shooting him in the head with my paladin.
So obviously it feels out of place to lose a battle in which you did great - after which you should feel bad.


wat?

[guacamayus]

I felt it, shepard always wins no matter the odds, this time he lost thessia and the VI

[Jarys]

I felt pissed off more than anything. Here this guy is gloating about how awesome he is, when he beats you with a damn heavy gunship sitting behind him, and the final 'defeat' is said gunship destroying the entire building around you. I had this urge to scream at him the whole time 'any time you actually want to fight let me know, as it is that heavy gunship is giving me quite a bit more trouble than lil ol' you.'