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[Strategyking92]

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.

I fail to see a point here. A single geth is a VI, whereas a cluster of geth (several VI's) has increased intelligence due to processing power. Self aware, perhaps, but this does not mean it can qualify as a living entity.

By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. A living entity is something that's up for debate, is it living because it's partly organic? or because is intelligent enough and self aware? many would qualify a living being by it just being self aware.

The geth aren't a living being because they aren't that: a living being. A geth is not the same as EDI, who can change her source code and become aquinted with notions that do not make pure logical sense, such as emotions and whatnot. Geth make cold calculations, nothing more. Also the fact that a single geth is a VI also hurts their case as well because, well.... That's the case.

Calculator: "User, does this Calculator have a soul"
Me: "no, now what's 5x16017"
Calculator:"80085"
Me: "LOL"
Calculator: "I will destroy all of humanity."

[IntrepidDeath]

moater boat wrote...

The Geth never show any signs of this. They give absolutely no indication that any of the other races are actually alive. To the Geth, the quarians and all other races are simply aspects of their environment that should be dealt with in whichever way is most benificial to themselves. The Quarians are a threat in the morning war?Slaughter them with extreme predjudice.The remaining Quarians flee, let them go. It is wrong to think that this was an act of mercy, mercy is a product of empathy, a quality Geth lack, they stopped chasing the Quarians simply because the immediate threat was gone. If anything, had the Geth followed them and wiped them out, it would have been better evidence of the Geth being alive.

I really don't see where you're getting any of that. Speaking with Legion tells us that the geth do, in fact, watch the organics. They watch the extranet. They ask Shepard's opinion on moral dilemmas. Hell, Legion even plays video games with organics. How is any of that treating organics as "simply aspects of their environment"? They certainly weren't ruthless in the Morning War, either. They were in a war for their own survival, in which the aggressors would not stop unless the geth either killed them or drove them away. What else could they have done?

moater boat wrote... 

Then there is the fact that the Geth have a tendency to ally with the Reapers. Why? Because the calculations done in their processors determine that it is the best method for self preservation. The Geth only care about the effectiveness of the plan. Not once do they ask "Is this the RIGHT thing to do?" and the reason they never ask that is because they are incapable, because they lack empathy, because they are not living creatures.

First, I'm holding the heretics separate here. As described, they essentially the synthetic version of insane. Second, when the geth allied with the reapers against the quarians, it wasn't because they determined that it was the best method for self preservation. They determined, from what I recall and from what I gleaned from conversations with Legion, that it was the ONLY method for self preservation. And I believe that they did, in fact, question it, but as I mentioned elsewhere, they were afraid of dying, so they made the deal with the devil. Legion quite blatantly shows remorse over making that decision.

[justafan]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Legion has a nasty habit of informing you of critical mission details at the last minute.  

Heretics can be rewritten? I'll tell Shep when we get aboard the station.  

Geth will join reapers for self preservation?  I'll go along with it until someone unplugs me from the dreadnaught.  

I have Reaper code in me?   Na, I Shepard won't find that annerving at all and will totally understand if I don't tell him until the last minute.  

I plan on uploading reaper code to give geth sentience?  I'll wait until our fleet is getting attacked to bring this up.

Geth will switch sides if the Quarians don't attack and the reaper code is gone?  I won't tell any of the admirals this and only tell Shepard this at the last second and force him to choose between us and the Quarians.

Legion is cute and all, but he seriously lacks in either the trust department or is the worlds worst procrastinator.

[THEUKPSYCHO]

Olueq wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

You are fine with killing millions of innocents? The civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Some people are really stupid it seems.

Thats acceptable collateral damage to my Shepard, plus the Geth fleet is better from what I can remember. Also with the exception of tali who is great I found every other quarian I met irritating and wanted to pull their mask off to see what an acute reaction they get when exposed to condition outside their suits.

[FirstCitizen800]

sirisaacx wrote...

Well there is no mysterious spark of life as far as I know of. Just chemical reactions playing out in such a way as to create responses to stimuli. A sufficiently advanced machine is just a human.

The mechanics of life aren't (entirely) mysterious, but the origins are. Sure, a few amino-acid chains do seem to form spontaneously under the right conditions, but that's like saying if I leave a piece of plastic and some conductive material in a room, in 10,000,000,000 years a computer will have formed. Organics are the direct descendants of the unknownable, especially sense (according to current theories any way) it's scientifically impossible to know anything about the universe before the Big Bang. Of course, to our logical sides, that might not mean anything. But if magic fills the hole of ignorance, we'll probably always be somewhat magical beigns. (In the ME3 Universe, no race claims to know how organic life began and they are much more advanced than we are.) Synthetics, this is just not so....

[IntrepidDeath]

sirisaacx wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Zaeed, Samara, Mordin, Miranda, can't recall others.

Zaeed, true. I don't remember Samara, Mordin, or Miranda ever lying to you though, or withholding any information I'd deem important. (Maybe because any info they did keep back seem to be of the personal and the mission critical type.)

Mordin: didn't tell you he was altering the genophage at first. Said he was on a simple scouting mission.
Samara: Didn't tell you that Morrinth was her daughter.
Miranda: This one I'm hazy on.

She wanted to implant Shepard with a control chip. Kelly Chambers reported information about Shepard to the Illusive Man and didn't tell Shepard about it.

[Olueq]

THEUKPSYCHO wrote...

Olueq wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

You are fine with killing millions of innocents? The civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Some people are really stupid it seems.

Thats acceptable collateral damage to my Shepard, plus the Geth fleet is better from what I can remember. Also with the exception of tali who is great I found every other quarian I met irritating and wanted to pull their mask off to see what an acute reaction they get when exposed to condition outside their suits.

right even though the geth can still be useful when they are dead and they have a bad habbit of joining the reapers and the quarian fleet outnumbers them (the geth ships might be better but againt the reapers that makes little difference), and killing millions of innocents? People are stupid.

[moater boat]

Funkdrspot wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Says the man who didn't bother to back himself up. Call names all you like but my point is valid and there's nothing 'liberal' about it. It's a fairly simple concept that applies universally to all people.

Lol, I'm sure there's better forums to cheer for you favorite football teams, er, I mean political parties.

He seems to be trying to make it a political party issue. I was just pointing to, what i saw as, flawed logic of another poster. Yes weaker minds will call names and root for political parties like they do teams but that's not me.

I didn't mention political parties, I simply pointed out that you were venturing into a poltical minefield and you, for some reason, seemed to be operating under that false impression that you were stating facts rather than opinions and poltical talking points. Regardless, I am done with you, I aleady made it clear that had this discussion started somewhere more politically oriented, I would exposed the backwards logic, but due to the nature of this forums, I simply asked you to refrain from political prosthelytizing. This is not the place to be discussing Jim Crow Laws or slavery reparations. Please keep things related to Mass Effect.

[Legendaryred]

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.

I fail to see a point here. A single geth is a VI, whereas a cluster of geth (several VI's) has increased intelligence due to processing power. Self aware, perhaps, but this does not mean it can qualify as a living entity.

By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. A living entity is something that's up for debate, is it living because it's partly organic? or because is intelligent enough and self aware? many would qualify a living being by it just being self aware.

The geth aren't a living being because they aren't that: a living being. A geth is not the same as EDI, who can change her source code and become aquinted with notions that do not make pure logical sense, such as emotions and whatnot. Geth make cold calculations, nothing more. Also the fact that a single geth is a VI also hurts their case as well because, well.... That's the case.

Calculator: "User, does this Calculator have a soul"
Me: "no, now what's 5x16017"
Calculator:"80085"
Me: "LOL"
Calculator: "I will destroy all of humanity."

Well 1 geth has over a thousand programs running, unless you're talking about 1 single program, then I'm not sure that's a VI, all we know is that Geth gain complexity by linking together. 1 geth alone is self aware, not sure if they make cold calculations unless Legion sacrificing himself is seeing as not a sacrifice but a cold calculation.

[OchreJelly]

THEUKPSYCHO wrote...

*Psychotic things*

Your username is apt.

No offense.  ヽ( ´¬`)ノ 

[sirisaacx]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Well there is no mysterious spark of life as far as I know of. Just chemical reactions playing out in such a way as to create responses to stimuli. A sufficiently advanced machine is just a human.

The mechanics of life aren't (entirely) mysterious, but the origins are. Sure, a few amino-acid chains do seem to form spontaneously under the right conditions, but that's like saying if I leave a piece of plastic and some conductive material in a room, in 10,000,000,000 years a computer will have formed. Organics are the direct descendants of the unknownable, especially sense (according to current theories any way) it's scientifically impossible to know anything about the universe before the Big Bang. Of course, to our logical sides, that might not mean anything. But if magic fills the hole of ignorance, we'll probably always be somewhat magical beigns. (In the ME3 Universe, no race claims to know how organic life began and they are much more advanced than we are.) Synthetics, this is just not so....
 
-snip-

Well I'm not sure I agree with you. I think there is a logical explanation for everything, but I guess we can't debate that.

My question for you then, is why is having mythical origins a requisite for life?

[pomrink]

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. While I've seen all these arguments before, seeing them so eloquently written is very satisfying.

[Olueq]

pomrink wrote...

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. While I've seen all these arguments before, seeing them so eloquently written is very satisfying.

thx for the input? 

[Jagri]

Olueq wrote...

THEUKPSYCHO wrote...

Olueq wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

You are fine with killing millions of innocents? The civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Some people are really stupid it seems.

Thats acceptable collateral damage to my Shepard, plus the Geth fleet is better from what I can remember. Also with the exception of tali who is great I found every other quarian I met irritating and wanted to pull their mask off to see what an acute reaction they get when exposed to condition outside their suits.

right even though the geth can still be useful when they are dead and they have a bad habbit of joining the reapers and the quarian fleet outnumbers them (the geth ships might be better but againt the reapers that makes little difference), and killing millions of innocents? People are stupid.

I would rather be responsible for creating the galaxies largest junk yard then the genocide of the quarian race.

[pomrink]

Olueq wrote...

pomrink wrote...

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. While I've seen all these arguments before, seeing them so eloquently written is very satisfying.

thx for the input? 

 
Are you being sardonic? I was posting on his thread earlier, but "no offense" you appear to often resort to ad hominems and needlessly insulted a few people in your posts. Glad you like my input.

[Strategyking92]

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.

I fail to see a point here. A single geth is a VI, whereas a cluster of geth (several VI's) has increased intelligence due to processing power. Self aware, perhaps, but this does not mean it can qualify as a living entity.

By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. A living entity is something that's up for debate, is it living because it's partly organic? or because is intelligent enough and self aware? many would qualify a living being by it just being self aware.

The geth aren't a living being because they aren't that: a living being. A geth is not the same as EDI, who can change her source code and become aquinted with notions that do not make pure logical sense, such as emotions and whatnot. Geth make cold calculations, nothing more. Also the fact that a single geth is a VI also hurts their case as well because, well.... That's the case.

Calculator: "User, does this Calculator have a soul"
Me: "no, now what's 5x16017"
Calculator:"80085"
Me: "LOL"
Calculator: "I will destroy all of humanity."

Well 1 geth has over a thousand programs running, unless you're talking about 1 single program, then I'm not sure that's a VI, all we know is that Geth gain complexity by linking together. 1 geth alone is self aware, not sure if they make cold calculations unless Legion sacrificing himself is seeing as not a sacrifice but a cold calculation.

Considering he did so after the reaper code transformed him into an actual AI that arguement is meaningless, and also it's a possibility if it were otherwise still a grouping of VI's as well. 2k geth programs saving millions of other programs... Seems like a calculation that a concensus would come to.

[THEUKPSYCHO]

Olueq wrote...

THEUKPSYCHO wrote...

Olueq wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

You are fine with killing millions of innocents? The civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Some people are really stupid it seems.

Thats acceptable collateral damage to my Shepard, plus the Geth fleet is better from what I can remember. Also with the exception of tali who is great I found every other quarian I met irritating and wanted to pull their mask off to see what an acute reaction they get when exposed to condition outside their suits.

right even though the geth can still be useful when they are dead and they have a bad habbit of joining the reapers and the quarian fleet outnumbers them (the geth ships might be better but againt the reapers that makes little difference), and killing millions of innocents? People are stupid.

I have to be honest the whole killing millions of people issue was just fine with me, after all they started the mess in the first place. If it makes you feel better I didn't shoot mordin.

[sirisaacx]

Olueq wrote...

pomrink wrote...

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. While I've seen all these arguments before, seeing them so eloquently written is very satisfying.

thx for the input? 

Hey no need to be mean. I agree. Most everyone in this thread is presenting their argument clearly and concisely. It's a much easier and more interesting read than a lot of the threads on these forums.

[MstrJedi Kyle]

It made me want to side with both. That mission through the Geth Consensus showed how much "humanity" the Geth actually had. You got to see they all had emotions. I thought that part of the game was incredibly well written and I was extremely happy that we were allowed to save both the Quarians and the Geth.

[Legendaryred]

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.

I fail to see a point here. A single geth is a VI, whereas a cluster of geth (several VI's) has increased intelligence due to processing power. Self aware, perhaps, but this does not mean it can qualify as a living entity.

By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. A living entity is something that's up for debate, is it living because it's partly organic? or because is intelligent enough and self aware? many would qualify a living being by it just being self aware.

The geth aren't a living being because they aren't that: a living being. A geth is not the same as EDI, who can change her source code and become aquinted with notions that do not make pure logical sense, such as emotions and whatnot. Geth make cold calculations, nothing more. Also the fact that a single geth is a VI also hurts their case as well because, well.... That's the case.

Calculator: "User, does this Calculator have a soul"
Me: "no, now what's 5x16017"
Calculator:"80085"
Me: "LOL"
Calculator: "I will destroy all of humanity."

Well 1 geth has over a thousand programs running, unless you're talking about 1 single program, then I'm not sure that's a VI, all we know is that Geth gain complexity by linking together. 1 geth alone is self aware, not sure if they make cold calculations unless Legion sacrificing himself is seeing as not a sacrifice but a cold calculation.

Considering he did so after the reaper code transformed him into an actual AI that arguement is meaningless, and also it's a possibility if it were otherwise still a grouping of VI's as well. 2k geth programs saving millions of other programs... Seems like a calculation that a concensus would come to.

According to your logic Shepard at the end also did a calculation that a concensus would come to, so is shepard an AI? 

[sirisaacx]

DarthKilby wrote...

It made me want to side with both. That mission through the Geth Consensus showed how much "humanity" the Geth actually had. You got to see they all had emotions. I thought that part of the game was incredibly well written and I was extremely happy that we were allowed to save both the Quarians and the Geth.

I still stand by the notion that the geth will eventually kill us all, but yes, in their current state they were quite amicable.

[Psythorn]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Psythorn
So this is a highly philisophical question:
If a AI or whatever would develop self-consciousness and free will - you would not consider it beeing truly alive ? Please do not take offence as this is a highly theoretical question - but would'nt that be a form of racism ?

No, I wouldn't consider it alive. It is obviously not a product of that mysterious spark of life which innervates all the organic races. Although, to be clear, that's not so much because I wouldn't according something entirely synthetic that had self-consciousness and free will as alive. It's just that I doubt I could be convinced that it did possess all those things.

Yes... But this way you circumvent to go into the philsosophical part of that question. For this kind of discussions to work you have to accept the theoretical assumptios first . So just for the fun: Accept the assumptions as given and ask yourself: Would you consider it living, having some "rights" and it is worth to preserve it ?
Or is it not because it is not organic and therefore does not have that mysterious sparc. And then again - wouldn't that be racism ?

[FirstCitizen800]

sirisaacx wrote...

Well I'm not sure I agree with you. I think there is a logical explanation for everything, but I guess we can't debate that.

My question for you then, is why is having mythical origins a requisite for life?

Well, there might be a logical explination for everything, but that doesn't mean the explination in knowable. Why are mythical orgins important? Maybe they're not, again from a purely logical point of view. Again, human beings, at least the majority of them, don't operate purely on logic. Neither do the other organic races. And I do think Legion even makes a comment at one point about how the Geth 'envy' - i don't think he used that exact word - the Creators because they don't know everything about where they came from. To a large extent, the mysteriousness provides organics with more self-determination. The Geth know why they exists, the exact reason their consciousness is in the world - to serve the creators. They may 'change their program', but it will always be an aberration from their original purpose if they do so. Organics, on the other hand, are free to be what they want to be. They can be God's children, they can be random accidents, they can be the Children of the a Great Alien Race (the Protheans) anything.. Just one more reason why organics are Better (Lol) than Synthetics. Our will is freerer, because we can't only change our minds, at will, we can change our essence. (Through things like culture, we often do.)

[THEUKPSYCHO]

Jagri wrote...

Olueq wrote...

THEUKPSYCHO wrote...

Olueq wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

You are fine with killing millions of innocents? The civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Some people are really stupid it seems.

Thats acceptable collateral damage to my Shepard, plus the Geth fleet is better from what I can remember. Also with the exception of tali who is great I found every other quarian I met irritating and wanted to pull their mask off to see what an acute reaction they get when exposed to condition outside their suits.

right even though the geth can still be useful when they are dead and they have a bad habbit of joining the reapers and the quarian fleet outnumbers them (the geth ships might be better but againt the reapers that makes little difference), and killing millions of innocents? People are stupid.

I would rather be responsible for creating the galaxies largest junk yard then the genocide of the quarian race.

Personally I'd rather save my own world than try to broker a peace treaty with a race too stupid to do it on their own.

[Psythorn]

Legendaryred wrote...
According to your logic Shepard at the end also did a calculation that a concensus would come to, so is shepard an AI? 

Would you please stop quoting like this ?

It's possible to edit your post you know (as this post shows) !!

And in case someone wonders - I'm talking about these endless quotes in a quote in quote in a quotes ... ... ... ... quotes...

Modifié par Psythorn, 02 avril 2012 - 07:52 .