Modifié par Shallyah, 02 avril 2012 - 07:52 .
FirstCitizen800 wrote...
sirisaacx wrote...
Well I'm not sure I agree with you. I think there is a logical explanation for everything, but I guess we can't debate that.
My question for you then, is why is having mythical origins a requisite for life?
Well, there might be a logical explination for everything, but that doesn't mean the explination in knowable. Why are mythical orgins important? Maybe they're not, again from a purely logical point of view. Again, human beings, at least the majority of them, don't operate purely on logic. Neither do the other organic races. And I do think Legion even makes a comment at one point about how the Geth 'envy' - i don't think he used that exact word - the Creators because they don't know everything about where they came from. To a large extent, the mysteriousness provides organics with more self-determination. The Geth know why they exists, the exact reason their consciousness is in the world - to serve the creators. They may 'change their program', but it will always be an aberration from their original purpose if they do so. Organics, on the other hand, are free to be what they want to be. They can be God's children, they can be random accidents, they can be the Children of the a Great Alien Race (the Protheans) anything.. Just one more reason why organics are Better (Lol) than Synthetics. Our will is freerer, because we can't only change our minds, at will, we can change our essence. (Through things like culture, we often do.)
One intelligence does not a concensus make. And if we are going by that logic.... Shepard would have lead humanity into submission to the reapers... Just as the geth did.. on three seperate occasions.Legendaryred wrote...
According to your logic Shepard at the end also did a calculation that a concensus would come to, so is shepard an AI?Strategyking92 wrote...
Considering he did so after the reaper code transformed him into an actual AI that arguement is meaningless, and also it's a possibility if it were otherwise still a grouping of VI's as well. 2k geth programs saving millions of other programs... Seems like a calculation that a concensus would come to.Legendaryred wrote...
Well 1 geth has over a thousand programs running, unless you're talking about 1 single program, then I'm not sure that's a VI, all we know is that Geth gain complexity by linking together. 1 geth alone is self aware, not sure if they make cold calculations unless Legion sacrificing himself is seeing as not a sacrifice but a cold calculation.Strategyking92 wrote...
The geth aren't a living being because they aren't that: a living being. A geth is not the same as EDI, who can change her source code and become aquinted with notions that do not make pure logical sense, such as emotions and whatnot. Geth make cold calculations, nothing more. Also the fact that a single geth is a VI also hurts their case as well because, well.... That's the case.Legendaryred wrote...
By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. A living entity is something that's up for debate, is it living because it's partly organic? or because is intelligent enough and self aware? many would qualify a living being by it just being self aware.Strategyking92 wrote...
I fail to see a point here. A single geth is a VI, whereas a cluster of geth (several VI's) has increased intelligence due to processing power. Self aware, perhaps, but this does not mean it can qualify as a living entity.Legendaryred wrote...
I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.Strategyking92 wrote...
at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....
No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.
Calculator: "User, does this Calculator have a soul"
Me: "no, now what's 5x16017"
Calculator:"80085"
Me: "LOL"
Calculator: "I will destroy all of humanity."
Olueq wrote...
Lmao, you call me childish then say UMAD?Funkdrspot wrote...
U mad? Quit calling names like a child.
- It was too late for them to retreat BEFORE Shepard boarded the big geth cruiser. The plan was to evac the people when it was disabled.
- I listened to the dialogue. IIRC that dialogue was AFTER you land on Rannock and disable the AA guns and involved JUST his fleet being destroyed. Either way, the choice was penny wise and pound foolish. Save the heavy fleet while simultaneously putting the civies at risk? Stupid decision. He bluffed and she bit. If her fleet had pulled back, he would have too because he's a coward.
1. Yes, but that was AFTER they joined the reapers. It was not a suicide run until that point. That was WHY shepard was needed. The quarians were WINNING the war at first so they had no reason to think it would be a suicide mission. If they KNEW the geth were allied with the reapers they would not have attacked them.
2. No.......... thats while you are on the dreadnaught.
You said that It was a calculation that a concencus would do when Legion sacrificed himself to save millions of other programs. Shepard at the end sacrifices himself to save millions of other people, according to your logic that's also a calculation that a concensus would come to.Strategyking92 wrote...
One intelligence does not a concensus make. And if we are going by that logic.... Shepard would have lead humanity into submission to the reapers... Just as the geth did.. on three seperate occasions.Legendaryred wrote...
According to your logic Shepard at the end also did a calculation that a concensus would come to, so is shepard an AI?Strategyking92 wrote...
Considering he did so after the reaper code transformed him into an actual AI that arguement is meaningless, and also it's a possibility if it were otherwise still a grouping of VI's as well. 2k geth programs saving millions of other programs... Seems like a calculation that a concensus would come to.Legendaryred wrote...
Well 1 geth has over a thousand programs running, unless you're talking about 1 single program, then I'm not sure that's a VI, all we know is that Geth gain complexity by linking together. 1 geth alone is self aware, not sure if they make cold calculations unless Legion sacrificing himself is seeing as not a sacrifice but a cold calculation.Strategyking92 wrote...
The geth aren't a living being because they aren't that: a living being. A geth is not the same as EDI, who can change her source code and become aquinted with notions that do not make pure logical sense, such as emotions and whatnot. Geth make cold calculations, nothing more. Also the fact that a single geth is a VI also hurts their case as well because, well.... That's the case.Legendaryred wrote...
By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. A living entity is something that's up for debate, is it living because it's partly organic? or because is intelligent enough and self aware? many would qualify a living being by it just being self aware.Strategyking92 wrote...
I fail to see a point here. A single geth is a VI, whereas a cluster of geth (several VI's) has increased intelligence due to processing power. Self aware, perhaps, but this does not mean it can qualify as a living entity.Legendaryred wrote...
I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.Strategyking92 wrote...
at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....
No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.
Calculator: "User, does this Calculator have a soul"
Me: "no, now what's 5x16017"
Calculator:"80085"
Me: "LOL"
Calculator: "I will destroy all of humanity."
Heretic geth in ME1, new Heretic Geth in ME2, and all of the Geth minus Legion in ME3. Now from what I remember Shepard never did this.
Psythorn wrote...
Yes... But this way you circumvent to go into the philsosophical part of that question. For this kind of discussions to work you have to accept the theoretical assumptios first. So just for the fun: Accept the assumptions as given and ask yourself: Would you consider it living, having some "rights" and it is worth to preserve it ?
Or is it not because it is not organic and therefore does not have that mysterious sparc. And then again - wouldn't that be racism ?
Modifié par pomrink, 02 avril 2012 - 07:59 .
Strategyking92 wrote...
One intelligence does not a concensus make. And if we are going by that logic.... Shepard would have lead humanity into submission to the reapers... Just as the geth did.. on three seperate occasions.
Heretic geth in ME1, new Heretic Geth in ME2, and all of the Geth minus Legion in ME3. Now from what I remember Shepard never did this.
sergio71785 wrote...
Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?
Modifié par Slidell505, 02 avril 2012 - 08:00 .
FirstCitizen800 wrote...
Psythorn wrote...
Yes... But this way you circumvent to go into the philsosophical part of that question. For this kind of discussions to work you have to accept the theoretical assumptios first
Or is it not because it is not organic and therefore does not have that mysterious sparc. And then again - wouldn't that be racism ?
Okay, by your rules I'd consider it 'alive', in the sense that it was capable of making moral choices, assuming it was somewhat intelligent as well. Not like, as said, merely the synthetic equivalent of a dog. As far as rights go, I'm still not sure. Rights are a concept that evolved from human relationships, and while the concepts are essentially valid for any species essentially like us except in form, I'm not sure how such a thing would fit into the web of the established body-politic. There would be a lot of things to consider, for instance, before we started letting A.I.'s vote or hold office, for instance. Or putting people in jail for unplugging it. Or letting it own property.
Modifié par pomrink, 02 avril 2012 - 08:02 .
If by "feel" you mean physically feel heat or cold or softness or roughness, then I'm pretty sure geth could come up with sensors to do that which they could turn into positive feedback which would create the stimuli of "like". I believe Quarians have this type of technology on their suits to be able to feel the world around them, i believe Tali or other quarian mentions it on ME1 or ME2.pomrink wrote...
sirisaacx, I have a question for you. Do you believe that an artificial intelligence can truly experience qualia? Because part of the argument that an AI cannot be called alive, is that they would not be able to "feel" the world around them, only perceive it. To put in other words, they would only know, not understand. Do you think this is the case? Or is it irrelevant to something being considered a living, sentient, intelligent entity?
Legendaryred wrote...
If by "feel" you mean physically feel heat or cold or softness or roughness, then I'm pretty sure geth could come up with sensors to do that which they could turn into positive feedback which would create the stimuli of "like". I believe Quarians have this type of technology on their suits to be able to feel the world around them, i believe Tali or other quarian mentions it on ME1 or ME2.pomrink wrote...
sirisaacx, I have a question for you. Do you believe that an artificial intelligence can truly experience qualia? Because part of the argument that an AI cannot be called alive, is that they would not be able to "feel" the world around them, only perceive it. To put in other words, they would only know, not understand. Do you think this is the case? Or is it irrelevant to something being considered a living, sentient, intelligent entity?
Slidell505 wrote...
sergio71785 wrote...
Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?
Because they launched an attack during the reaper invasion on a race they now know is largly peaceful? Seriously, the Geth are the most benevolent race in the galaxy (besides the keepers), they get attacked by the quarians, fight to defend themselves, and when Shepard stops the Quarians and makes peace between the two, what do the Geth do? They join the fight against the reapers, and start rebuilding Rannoch for the Quarians.
OchreJelly wrote...
THEUKPSYCHO wrote...
*Psychotic things*
Your username is apt.
No offense. ヽ( ´¬`)ノ
pomrink wrote...
Oh i missed the link, can't comment on that though.Legendaryred wrote...
If by "feel" you mean physically feel heat or cold or softness or roughness, then I'm pretty sure geth could come up with sensors to do that which they could turn into positive feedback which would create the stimuli of "like". I believe Quarians have this type of technology on their suits to be able to feel the world around them, i believe Tali or other quarian mentions it on ME1 or ME2.pomrink wrote...
sirisaacx, I have a question for you. Do you believe that an artificial intelligence can truly experience qualia? Because part of the argument that an AI cannot be called alive, is that they would not be able to "feel" the world around them, only perceive it. To put in other words, they would only know, not understand. Do you think this is the case? Or is it irrelevant to something being considered a living, sentient, intelligent entity?
That's not what I meant at all sir/ma'am. Click on the link.
Modifié par Strategyking92, 02 avril 2012 - 08:09 .
Yea it was like a week or a month before the reaper invasion, though the geth get extra points for believing Legion and preparing for war agains the reapers, hence that huge beautiful geth dreadnought that was built which was then blowed up, what a waste.FirstCitizen800 wrote...
Slidell505 wrote...
sergio71785 wrote...
Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?
Because they launched an attack during the reaper invasion on a race they now know is largly peaceful? Seriously, the Geth are the most benevolent race in the galaxy (besides the keepers), they get attacked by the quarians, fight to defend themselves, and when Shepard stops the Quarians and makes peace between the two, what do the Geth do? They join the fight against the reapers, and start rebuilding Rannoch for the Quarians.
Didn't they launch it before the repear invasion, not really paying attention to your shepards warnings? Did anyone pay attention to shepard? Are the Quarians somehow unique in ignoring him?
pomrink wrote...
sirisaacx, I have a question for you. Do you believe that an artificial intelligence can truly experience qualia? Because part of the argument that an AI cannot be called alive, is that they would not be able to "feel" the world around them, only perceive it. To put in other words, they would only know, not understand. Do you think this is the case? Or is it irrelevant to something being considered a living, sentient, intelligent entity?
Giskler wrote...
Tali and Kal'Reegar are the only decent Quarians, the rest of them are the douchebags of the galaxy.
pomrink wrote...
FirstCitizen800 wrote...
Okay, by your rules I'd consider it 'alive', in the sense that it was capable of making moral choices, assuming it was somewhat intelligent as well. Not like, as said, merely the synthetic equivalent of a dog. As far as rights go, I'm still not sure. Rights are a concept that evolved from human relationships, and while the concepts are essentially valid for any species essentially like us except in form, I'm not sure how such a thing would fit into the web of the established body-politic. There would be a lot of things to consider, for instance, before we started letting A.I.'s vote or hold office, for instance. Or putting people in jail for unplugging it. Or letting it own property.
Firstcitizen, are you saying that making moral choices is what makes something alive? An extended family member of mine is incapable of making moral choices, she is a sociopath. Is she not alive, and sentient? Does she not have rights?
Maybe we should stay with the basics at first and not look into special cases - you can't decide on a species beeing alive or not by just looking at one sample...
Slidell505 wrote...
sergio71785 wrote...
Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?
Because they launched an attack during the reaper invasion on a race they now know is largly peaceful? Seriously, the Geth are the most benevolent race in the galaxy (besides the keepers), they get attacked by the quarians, fight to defend themselves, and when Shepard stops the Quarians and makes peace between the two, what do the Geth do? They join the fight against the reapers, and start rebuilding Rannoch for the Quarians.
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