350 réponses à ce sujet

[pomrink]

IntrepidDeath wrote...

I see some people repeating arguments that geth are not actually alive or whatnot, but I just don't understand them. They demonstrate the ability to perceive their own intelligences, to perceive others' intelligences, and to contemplate moral dilemmas. Why does it matter that they're made out of metal? I think part of the reason that I don't understand arguments against geth life is that I view humans (and all organic life) as meat computers rather than anything mystical. We're all programmed as well, though it's not quite as obvious to cursory inspection.

I do share your mechanistic view on what humans are, as you put it "meat computers" but you're ignoring a large amount of the arguments.

[Legendaryred]

Strategyking92 wrote...



--------------------------
Humans aren't capable of calculations? I said that apparently?I am not going to argue that or whether it was a calculation or not, since I'm sure his human emotions were also involved at some level, as hinted by seeing visions of his friends and what not. Listen, I am not arguing that humans can't add or subtract numbers (It's actually how we win science fairs and game shows), I am saying that the geth are only capable of hard calculations since they are VI's, not AI's. And as I said earlier, Legion is a different case entirely since the space magic changed him from a VI to an AI and that's when he sacrified himself. I said it could be the case otherwise, since it could also be seen as just a another calculation.

edit: I broke the internet.

"It is also implied by Legion
that the geth feel a sort of remorse for killing so many quarians and
display this by looking after the quarians' buildings, as though it were
a cemetery. At the same time, the sacrifice of those quarians who had
opposed martial law and the termination order were archived and honored
by the geth, even if the quarians themselves had largely forgotten about
them."

[Cuddlezarro]

Legendaryred wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?

Because they launched an attack during the reaper invasion on a race they now know is largly peaceful? Seriously, the Geth are the most benevolent race in the galaxy (besides the keepers), they get attacked by the quarians, fight to defend themselves, and when Shepard stops the Quarians and makes peace between the two, what do the Geth do? They join the fight against the reapers, and start rebuilding Rannoch for the Quarians.

Didn't they launch it before the repear invasion, not really paying attention to your shepards warnings? Did anyone pay attention to shepard? Are the Quarians somehow unique in ignoring him?

Yea it was like a week or a month before the reaper invasion, though the geth get extra points for believing Legion and preparing for war agains the reapers, hence that huge beautiful geth dreadnought that was built which was then blowed up, what a waste.

not a week before the invasion the quarians said they started the invasion like17 days before you meet them and theres no way invasion of earth>palavan>surkesh>tuchanka>citidel coup+various side quests took less than 17 days to do they was preparing for war before then however

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 avril 2012 - 08:11 .

[Legendaryred]

pomrink wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

I see some people repeating arguments that geth are not actually alive or whatnot, but I just don't understand them. They demonstrate the ability to perceive their own intelligences, to perceive others' intelligences, and to contemplate moral dilemmas. Why does it matter that they're made out of metal? I think part of the reason that I don't understand arguments against geth life is that I view humans (and all organic life) as meat computers rather than anything mystical. We're all programmed as well, though it's not quite as obvious to cursory inspection.

I do share your mechanistic view on what humans are, as you put it "meat computers" but you're ignoring a large amount of the arguments.

Well yes, we are meaty computers, what we feel, see and hear are translated into electrical impulses that go to our brain which changes the chemistry accordingly.

[IntrepidDeath]

Psythorn wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Firstcitizen, are you saying that making moral choices is what makes something alive? An extended family member of mine is incapable of making moral choices, she is a sociopath. Is she not alive, and sentient? Does she not have rights? 

Maybe we should stay with the basics at first and not look into special cases - you can't decide on a species beeing alive or not by just looking at one sample...

The special cases are important in defining what exactly one considers to be life.

[Legendaryred]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?

Because they launched an attack during the reaper invasion on a race they now know is largly peaceful? Seriously, the Geth are the most benevolent race in the galaxy (besides the keepers), they get attacked by the quarians, fight to defend themselves, and when Shepard stops the Quarians and makes peace between the two, what do the Geth do? They join the fight against the reapers, and start rebuilding Rannoch for the Quarians.

Didn't they launch it before the repear invasion, not really paying attention to your shepards warnings? Did anyone pay attention to shepard? Are the Quarians somehow unique in ignoring him?

Yea it was like a week or a month before the reaper invasion, though the geth get extra points for believing Legion and preparing for war agains the reapers, hence that huge beautiful geth dreadnought that was built which was then blowed up, what a waste.

not a week before the invasion the quarians said they started the invasion like17 days before you meet them and theres no way invasion of earth>palavan>surkesh>tuchanka>citidel coup+various side quests took less than 17 days to do they was preparing for war before then however

Oh okay, I'm sorry it was 2 weeks then.

[sirisaacx]

IntrepidDeath wrote...

Psythorn wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Firstcitizen, are you saying that making moral choices is what makes something alive? An extended family member of mine is incapable of making moral choices, she is a sociopath. Is she not alive, and sentient? Does she not have rights? 

Maybe we should stay with the basics at first and not look into special cases - you can't decide on a species beeing alive or not by just looking at one sample...

The special cases are important in defining what exactly one considers to be life.

And for that matter, wouldn't an entire RACE of sociopaths (oh god...) still be considered alive? It's useful to take these special cases to the extreme, in determining what bearings they have on an argument.

[Legendaryred]

Good discussion, but I have to go, see you everybody!

[IntrepidDeath]

pomrink wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

I see some people repeating arguments that geth are not actually alive or whatnot, but I just don't understand them. They demonstrate the ability to perceive their own intelligences, to perceive others' intelligences, and to contemplate moral dilemmas. Why does it matter that they're made out of metal? I think part of the reason that I don't understand arguments against geth life is that I view humans (and all organic life) as meat computers rather than anything mystical. We're all programmed as well, though it's not quite as obvious to cursory inspection.

I do share your mechanistic view on what humans are, as you put it "meat computers" but you're ignoring a large amount of the arguments.

I responded to a few arguments earlier, but I fully admit I can't keep up. There are a lot of arguments being made and I am a bit too tired to manage to keep track of all of them.

[Phobius9]

I still think that brokering peace is going to earn extra brownie points when the game is working out what kind of ending you finally get. Synthetics vs Organics is something that features throughout the Mass Effect series - I can see Harbinger using the actions of those who chose one over the other as evidence that Synthetics and Organics can never co-exists and so the Reapers are justified in their actions, or something. Considering there is a Quarian shaped hole on the surface of Rannoch in my play through, that's going to put me in an awkward situation. Hopefully getting Joker and EDI together will play to my advantage instead...

Modifié par Phobius9, 02 avril 2012 - 08:19 .

[pomrink]

sirisaacx wrote...

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx, I have a question for you. Do you believe that an artificial intelligence can truly experience qualia? Because part of the argument that an AI cannot be called alive, is that they would not be able to "feel" the world around them, only perceive it. To put in other words, they would only know, not understand. Do you think this is the case? Or is it irrelevant to something being considered a living, sentient, intelligent entity?

Thanks for including the link. I wasn't familiar with the term and it's an interesting read. I just skimmed the article for now but I'll be sure to look into it more later.

To answer, however, I think that a synthetic can both experience qualia, and that it does not need to to be alive. 

Consider this: humans are a construct of molecules and chemical reactions. Everything we experience is the result of such basic earthly actions. Therefore, were we suffieciently advanced, we could create a replica of ourselves from a "bin of parts" to put it in laymans terms.

If we can recreate ourselves, we should be able to create any form of life that responds to stimuli the way we do, that, to put it your way, experiences qualia. We're not special just because we weren't designed by other organics. Eventually we will have the capacity to create life as advanced as we are.

That being said, if hypothetically, synthetics could NOT experience this, I am tempted to say that they would still be life, though not necessarily as we know it, but i'd have to think more to come to a concrete conclusion. However, in taking a personality test (the Jung typology test regarded as the standard) one of the major distinctions is whether you learn towards FEELING or PERCEIVING. therefore, I think that either of those things, taken to their extreme, still constitute life.

Thank you, I just wanted your opinion on this, because you seem to be removing your bias as much as possible from your points on his thread. For the record, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point. In fact, you articulated my opinion better then I could have. Just wanted to put that qualia point out there as food for thought.

[IntrepidDeath]

sirisaacx wrote...

And for that matter, wouldn't an entire RACE of sociopaths (oh god...) still be considered alive? It's useful to take these special cases to the extreme, in determining what bearings they have on an argument.

Or hell, look at how biologists determine life. In the current scientific definition of life, bacteria are included as being alive. If they are alive, can the geth be reasonably excluded?

[FirstCitizen800]

pomrink wrote...

Firstcitizen, are you saying that making moral choices is what makes something alive? An extended family member of mine is incapable of making moral choices, she is a sociopath. Is she not alive, and sentient? Does she not have rights?

Well, I'm not about to say your family member isn't 'alive' or anything bad about her. She's obviously a living human being. I will say that I think the ability to make decisions of moral significance is an important aspect to what I'd consider a mind not like that of an animal. It's the difference I see when I look into the eyes of a man or woman, versus that of dog or cat. (Hell, I'd say I even see in some of the great apes.) In describing It don't do it justice, but I do think it is related to the quality of empathy (and our tendancy to see ourselves in everything else, hence even considering a machine could in some way be like us) By moral choices, I also don't mean being simply good or simply evil. But I doubt the lesser species ever experience anything along the lines of guilt, or pride, as a consequence of their decisions. In those of us that experience these things, I think there is a special and unique bond, which underlies the human family.

[Psythorn]

IntrepidDeath wrote...

The special cases are important in defining what exactly one considers to be life.

I'm not sure about this - you should not start thinking about exceptions before you thought about the rules - imho...

[pomrink]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Firstcitizen, are you saying that making moral choices is what makes something alive? An extended family member of mine is incapable of making moral choices, she is a sociopath. Is she not alive, and sentient? Does she not have rights?

Well, I'm not about to say your family member isn't 'alive' or anything bad about her. She's obviously a living human being. I will say that I think the ability to make decisions of moral significance is an important aspect to what I'd consider a mind not like that of an animal. It's the difference I see when I look into the eyes of a man or woman, versus that of dog or cat. (Hell, I'd say I even see in some of the great apes.) In describing It don't do it justice, but I do think it is related to the quality of empathy (and our tendancy to see ourselves in everything else, hence even considering a machine could in some way be like us) By moral choices, I also don't mean being simply good or simply evil. But I doubt the lesser species ever experience anything along the lines of guilt, or pride, as a consequence of their decisions. In those of us that experience these things, I think there is a special and unique bond, which underlies the human family.

Well sir, that definition of what you consider a mind to be actually rules out a large amount of the human population. Also, to clear things up, I despise that member of my family, so don't hold back in your arguments.

[OchreJelly]

Slidell505 wrote...

*Snip

...when Shepard stops the Quarians and makes peace between the two, what do the Geth do? They join the fight against the reapers, and start rebuilding Rannoch for the Quarians.

I would also like to point out that the quarians do stop and join the fight too, and work willingly with the geth. Both sides were not thrilled with eachother even moments before that.

Better that the quarian leaders (Gerrel mostly) realize it at all, than never. He was wrong of course, but he can stop before doing something terrible.

[Strategyking92]

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...



--------------------------
Humans aren't capable of calculations? I said that apparently?I am not going to argue that or whether it was a calculation or not, since I'm sure his human emotions were also involved at some level, as hinted by seeing visions of his friends and what not. Listen, I am not arguing that humans can't add or subtract numbers (It's actually how we win science fairs and game shows), I am saying that the geth are only capable of hard calculations since they are VI's, not AI's. And as I said earlier, Legion is a different case entirely since the space magic changed him from a VI to an AI and that's when he sacrified himself. I said it could be the case otherwise, since it could also be seen as just a another calculation.

edit: I broke the internet.

"It is also implied by Legion
that the geth feel a sort of remorse for killing so many quarians and
display this by looking after the quarians' buildings, as though it were
a cemetery. At the same time, the sacrifice of those quarians who had
opposed martial law and the termination order were archived and honored
by the geth, even if the quarians themselves had largely forgotten about
them."

It is not said what specifically "looking after" entails though. Since Geth live in the orbital space stations they really have no use for Rannoch. "Looking after" could mean they just upkeep the planet for their own benefit. As for the sort of remorse bit, it is only mentioned by Legion once, so it's hard to say if it's the concensus of the entire geth hivemind if they would have come to that calculation or not. This is just one small section of dialogue in the entire trilogy, and it really doesn't explain much.

[FirstCitizen800]

[/quote]
And for that matter, wouldn't an entire RACE of sociopaths (oh god...) still be considered alive? It's useful to take these special cases to the extreme, in determining what bearings they have on an argument.

[/quote]

A race composed completely of sociipaths would be more akin to a virus, than the races of the Citadel.

[sirisaacx]

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx, I have a question for you. Do you believe that an artificial intelligence can truly experience qualia? Because part of the argument that an AI cannot be called alive, is that they would not be able to "feel" the world around them, only perceive it. To put in other words, they would only know, not understand. Do you think this is the case? Or is it irrelevant to something being considered a living, sentient, intelligent entity?

Thanks for including the link. I wasn't familiar with the term and it's an interesting read. I just skimmed the article for now but I'll be sure to look into it more later.

To answer, however, I think that a synthetic can both experience qualia, and that it does not need to to be alive. 

Consider this: humans are a construct of molecules and chemical reactions. Everything we experience is the result of such basic earthly actions. Therefore, were we suffieciently advanced, we could create a replica of ourselves from a "bin of parts" to put it in laymans terms.

If we can recreate ourselves, we should be able to create any form of life that responds to stimuli the way we do, that, to put it your way, experiences qualia. We're not special just because we weren't designed by other organics. Eventually we will have the capacity to create life as advanced as we are.

That being said, if hypothetically, synthetics could NOT experience this, I am tempted to say that they would still be life, though not necessarily as we know it, but i'd have to think more to come to a concrete conclusion. However, in taking a personality test (the Jung typology test regarded as the standard) one of the major distinctions is whether you learn towards FEELING or PERCEIVING. therefore, I think that either of those things, taken to their extreme, still constitute life.

Thank you, I just wanted your opinion on this, because you seem to be removing your bias as much as possible from your points on his thread. For the record, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point. In fact, you articulated my opinion better then I could have. Just wanted to put that qualia point out there as food for thought.

Well thanks for the compliment. I try to keep my arguments as sterile as possible from an emotional standpoint. But the qualia thing is certainly interesting! It is strange the way our brains can extrapolate emotion from wavelength and I wish I had the PhD's to understand the chemistry behind all of it. It's also interesting to consider that other life may experience these things entirely differently, or in fact, even percieve things as having emotional value that we don't even consider. For example, an evolved shark might attribute emotion and "feel" to electromagnetic impulses, what with their 6th sense and all.

[FirstCitizen800]

[quote]pomrink wrote...
[/quote]

Well sir, that definition of what you consider a mind to be actually rules out a large amount of the human population. Also, to clear things up, I despise that member of my family, so don't hold back in your arguments.

[/quote]

Related to this topic, when we imprison a person for life or execute them we don't declare them 'unalive'. But when it is done for cause, often it is justified by saying they've forefited their right to society. Not all sociopaths are criminal, but I think we even recognize among ourselves that some members of the species...by my definition at least...are more 'alive' than others.

[MatronAdena]

there was more than enough in ME2, and what not to more or less piece together the story we saw anyway " or that is enough to get the major point, the smaller details you get in ME3 filled it out more"

With that in mind I went into that situation already -for the most part- knowing what to expect. The battle was more one based on old ignorance and misconceptions. The Quarrians of today were NOT the ones before.

That's sort of like me hating my English friends because they may have had an ancestor involved in the battle of Culloden.

Thats not to say I didn't want to sucker punch a few of the more block headed ones ( don't want to rupture suits or anything, I'm not a monster.......at least not until the end.....

I was quite glad I had no issues getting both sides to use their brains for once- even if it took a great deal of hand holding.

[IntrepidDeath]

Psythorn wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

The special cases are important in defining what exactly one considers to be life.

I'm not sure about this - you should not start thinking about exceptions before you thought about the rules - imho...

My point is that you should take outliers into account when you try to define something. If you're going to say that something, in this case a sociopath, is alive or sentient or human or whatever, but it doesn't follow your rules for defining whatever it is you're defining, then you aren't defining that thing very well.

[IntrepidDeath]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

A race composed completely of sociipaths would be more akin to a virus, than the races of the Citadel.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

[sirisaacx]

[quote]FirstCitizen800 wrote...

[quote]pomrink wrote...
[/quote]

Well sir, that definition of what you consider a mind to be actually rules out a large amount of the human population. Also, to clear things up, I despise that member of my family, so don't hold back in your arguments.

[/quote]

Related to this topic, when we imprison a person for life or execute them we don't declare them 'unalive'. But when it is done for cause, often it is justified by saying they've forefited their right to society. Not all sociopaths are criminal, but I think we even recognize among ourselves that some members of the species...by my definition at least...are more 'alive' than others.

[/quote]

I'm not sure that holds water. I think that there are possible two "types" of life, if you can categorize something that broad with something so arbitrary. Those driven by logic, and those driven by emotion and logic. Both are equally valid, and we as humans are the latter, so we tend to appreciate the latter more. However, from an objective standpoint, emotion is just a distraction. It's completely superfluous and "perfect' life would not have it.

[FirstCitizen800]

MatronAdena wrote...

there was more than enough in ME2, and what not to more or less piece together the story we saw anyway " or that is enough to get the major point, the smaller details you get in ME3 filled it out more"

With that in mind I went into that situation already -for the most part- knowing what to expect. The battle was more one based on old ignorance and misconceptions. The Quarrians of today were NOT the ones before.

That's sort of like me hating my English friends because they may have had an ancestor involved in the battle of Culloden.

Thats not to say I didn't want to sucker punch a few of the more block headed ones ( don't want to rupture suits or anything, I'm not a monster.......at least not until the end.....

I was quite glad I had no issues getting both sides to use their brains for once- even if it took a great deal of hand holding.

Lol, your quip about not being a monster until the end made me think, maybe the trial they took out of the game is actually meant to take place at the end. Maybe Shepard's courtmartial will be the DLC.