350 réponses à ce sujet

[IntrepidDeath]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

Also, I can see an easy situation when an illogical species could triumph over a logical one. In the prisoner's dilemma, the logical choice for everyone involved is to betray the others, but if they were illogical, and none of them betrayed the others, then everyone benefits. That is, of course, assuming that the primary motivation for all involved in the prisoner's dilemma is personal benefit.

Good point. Also, a lot depends on how 'social' the geth are. Organics tend to hold an interest in both personal survival and the survival of 'the group' and it is not always predictable which will triumph in an organic's calculation. Some will save themselves by letting 'the group' die, others will save 'the group' by letting themselves die. Would a perfectly logical species display this type of unpredictability, or could you predictably determine that either the individual unit or group would come first. Uniformity in preservation priority could prove an exploitable weakness. Also, how does a completely logical being account for and adjust to the illogical actions of others?

Well, once again, all that depends on the perfectly logical beings' starting assumptions. If they assume that survival of the group is paramount, they would likely save the group. If they preferred survival of the individual, then they would put themselves first. However, even if one put the group first in all circumstances, it isn't always easy to say what a perfectly logical being might do. Because the being wouldn't be able to always know all circumstances surrounding a choice of, say, sacrificing itself versus sacrificing some of the group, depending on what information it has available it could make very different choices. Plus, that doesn't even take into account a perfectly logical being that only occasionally prefers itself over the group. The assumptions that such a being bases its logic off of can be ridiculous or arbitrary.

I don't see why a perfectly logical being wouldn't be able to understand and account for, at least as well as we do, the illogical actions of others. Hell, if it doesn't have emotions obscuring its perceptions, it would have an even easier time. Whether it is or isn't capable of understanding something isn't directly dependent on the purity of its logic. Edit: Or rather, I don't see why it would be dependent on the purity of its logic.

Edit 2: I think I'm rambling, so I'm going to sleep.

Modifié par IntrepidDeath, 02 avril 2012 - 09:31 .

[Adam2190]

That's why you make peace between them both, problem solved.

[Creston918]

sirisaacx wrote...

I think the geth are utterly terrifying and I would kill them all in a heartbeat if I had the chance. Not that I don't think they're sympathetic, but any race capable of IMPROVING their own intelligence would eventually become so advanced that our intellect would be like that of an ant to them. So far below us we don't even consider the emotional response they'd have when we destroy their entire colonies with poison, just because them living is inconvenient to us.

So in essence you're saying that the :wizard: MAC WALTERS SPACE MAGIC KID :wizard: is right?

[pomrink]

Someone brought up a great point, is that we really don't have enough data to make judgements about this sort of thing.

[CDHarrisUSF]

The only problem I have with the logic used to excuse the Quarians of any responsibility for starting the war  is that, by the same logic, Rannoch was never their home. It was the home of their ancestors. None of the living Quarians had ever set foot on the planet. Their home was the fleet.

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 02 avril 2012 - 07:33 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

The only problem I have with the logic used to excuse the Quarians of any responsibility for starting the war  is that, by the same logic, Rannoch was never their home. It was the home of their ancestors. None of the living Quarians had ever set foot on the planet. Their home was the fleet.

They think with an exile's mindset.

Whether it was their home or not becomes functionally irrelevant.

[CDHarrisUSF]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Whether it was their home or not becomes functionally irrelevant.

They may see it that way... but it's not irrelevant to the ones who live there currently and have done so for hundreds of years. Look at the Middle East to see what kind of trouble happens when people try to take back the land of their ancestors.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Whether it was their home or not becomes functionally irrelevant.

They may see it that way... but it's not irrelevant to the ones who live there currently and have done so for hundreds of years. Look at the Middle East to see what kind of trouble happens when people try to take back the land of their ancestors.

That's exactly the point.

Logic doesn't matter anymore for them.

It's their goddamn homeworld and they want it back and damn the consequences.

I always make peace so it doesn't matter.

[AllThatJazz]

The geth consensus was great. Partly because it showed that there were some Quarians who supported the right of the Geth to determine their own fate. There were Quarian people who died defending the rights of their creations, and Geth who died to protect their creators. This was actually one of the things I wanted to shove down the Starmoron's throat when he claimed that there could never be peace between Organics and Synthetics. Maybe there can't be easy, uncomplicated peace - but as long as there are individuals from either side willing to lay down their lives for each other, then both peace and self-determination are possibilities worth striving for.


Hmph.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 02 avril 2012 - 08:45 .

[withinthelight]

I feel like they kind of glossed over the fact that while the quarians may have started the Morning War, the geth finished it by driving them to damn close to extinction.
It never really gets mentioned that at some point the war turned in their favor such that they were no longer fighting in self defense. I find it hard to believe that the quarians resisted to the last man, woman and child and yet their homeworld and colonies were left with no viable population to speak of.

I guess they let a few million go but that's hardly charity considering the billions that weren't given the chance. And by choosing them over the quarians they show that despite once being unable to grapple with the thought of exterminating a species, they now seem to have no problem with justifying genocide as a means of self-defense. Not really what I want guarding my back.

[sirisaacx]

Creston918 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

I think the geth are utterly terrifying and I would kill them all in a heartbeat if I had the chance. Not that I don't think they're sympathetic, but any race capable of IMPROVING their own intelligence would eventually become so advanced that our intellect would be like that of an ant to them. So far below us we don't even consider the emotional response they'd have when we destroy their entire colonies with poison, just because them living is inconvenient to us.

So in essence you're saying that the :wizard: MAC WALTERS SPACE MAGIC KID :wizard: is right?

Yup! Bringing that issue to the forefront was one of the only things I admired about the ending, although I don't think it should have been in the ENDING. It should have been brought to light as an issue somewhere else. The ending should be about stopping the reapers not philosophical quandries. But yeah, I totally agree with his logic, if not his methods or how he explained it.

[Ossirian]

Seeing Quarians defending and fighting along side the Geth in the memory files just made me more confident peace was possible actually.

[FirstCitizen800]

bump

[Direwolf0294]

Not really. For one I can't blame someone for what their ancestors did. Also it was pretty clear there were Quarians who tried to help the Geth out back then, just as there were Quarians who opposed starting a new war with the Geth in ME3. I saved them both though so luckely I was never forced to make a choice.

[Vormaerin]

To me, the decision is not "Quarians vs Geth." Legion's question is "unified hive mind geth" vs "individualized AI Geth". If he is telling the truth, he is asking to replace the Geth Hive mind with geth individuals like himself. I can't think of a particularly good reason not to do that.

The fact that the Quarians (or, at least, Han'Gerrel) refuse to stop fighting is a totally different issue. The Quarians die because they chose to listen to Gerrel instead of Koris and Tali.

And because they are too stupid to run away when they realize that the "make the geth helpless" plan hasn't worked.

End of story.

[Hjelsao]

Andsmth85 wrote...

Did finding out how the Quarians treated the Geth made anyone want to side with the Geth over the Quarians ? ( this of course only concerns those who couldnt save both ) , if it wasnt for Tali i would have definitely sided with the Geth , Legion's mission clearly showed that the Quarians were the ones who started the whole mess by unfairly killing the Geth.

Nope. The geth are synthetics. Synthetics need to die. 

[Voutsis1982]

Andsmth85 wrote...
Did finding out how the Quarians treated the Geth made anyone want to side with the Geth over the Quarians ?

Not really - Tali had told Shepard that the Quarians struck first and for what reasons back in ME1. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know.

It struck me as more of a whitewash actually. Only a tiny proportion of Rannoch's population could have escaped in the Migrant Fleet. Billions more would have been left behind. They're all dead. That takes a sustained campaign of genocide. You can't kill every man, woman, child, elderly person, everyone in justified self defence. It just doesn't happen. Eventually you're going to be gunning down refugees, people trying to flee or surrender.

And the Geth did it. They're real merciful if you're flying away at FTL (where ME ships can't actually hit anything), but if you're on the same planet as they are, they will kill you in the face. And your children.

Never got explained. Too busy being shown the slide show of Self Sacrificing Geth Throughout History.

[Joccaren]

Honestly, I saw this coming right from ME1. I don't know how people didn't to be honest. Seriously. I found it painfully obvious right from the start that they only acted in retaliation:
-Tali states they started killing the Geth after they asked questions, then the Geth fought back
-The Geth have not been sighted outside the veil in hundreds of years
-The Geth are attacking humans, not the Quarians, with the goal of bringing their gods back
Uhh, yeah. Thought it was obvious the Geth weren't hostile really, and needed to be attacked to be provoked, or bought under the banner of their gods like a Crusade. Just me there?

[136th]

I think a lot of people are idealizing the Geth as the innocent victim of the evil Quarians

Seriously the Geth are a bunch of genocidal bastards, who use self defense as their excuses.

First things first
Quarian created the Geth
Geth become sentient
Some Quarians tried to kill the Geth (Evil)
Some Quarians tried to save the Geth (Good)
The Geth win and killed BILLIONS of Quarians including civilian, non combatant (Who probably tried to surrender, but the Geth killed them anyways) and all Quarians Who did not got away with the migrant fleet. (Very Evil)
The Geth Let the Quarian Go (Good)
But while they could go live almost anywhere, they decided to occupy the only planets where the Quarians can live, dooming the Quarians to a nomadic life. (Sadistic)
The Geth destroyed all organic ships who tried to contact them. (Evil)
When the heretics, go on to worship Sovereign, and tried to the Reapers back so they can exterminate organics. The Geth just stand and watch, they dont seem to care if all organics dies. (Evil by inaction)
Shepard stop Sovereign
Joker kill Sovereign
Shepard meet Legion, geth finally attempt to make contact (Good)
Rael'Zorah's exeriment(Evil)
Harbinger and his friends show up.
Quarian attack the Geth and killed most of the Geth when they destroyed the mega-structure.(Evil)
Geth ally with the Reaper.

Consider everything the Geth has done so far, I think the deserve much less sympathy than the Quarian. Legion has a good opinions of organics, the rest of the Geth couldn't care less about organics. If Legion died during the suicide mission, the Geth IV, make his hostility towards organics very clear. Althought I consider the Geth as much alive as the Quarians, I would have no problem in killing them off (killing, they are living creature after all).

Some of them tried to bring a fleet of mecha-cthulhu back from the dark space to kill everybody, while the rest of them just stand and watch? Seriously, at least the Quarian didn't tried to bring down Galactic doomsday event.

Sorry Legion, you are a good friends but the rest of your people don't care if we human live or dies. The quarian don't have another choice than to return to their homeworld, the geth have a choice and they choose to doom the quarians. If I can't make the Peace the Geth dies.

[Valk72]

Yes and No. Yes because a majority of Quarian were just downright murderers. No because some of them actually tried to save the Geth, and were killed by their own people because of that. It was clearly nuanced, and i found it particularly brillant.

Modifié par Valk72, 07 avril 2012 - 01:39 .

[AnuzaGray]

Sparatus wrote...

Voutsis1982 wrote...
Not really - Tali had told Shepard that the Quarians struck first and for what reasons back in ME1. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know.

It struck me as more of a whitewash actually. Only a tiny proportion of Rannoch's population could have escaped in the Migrant Fleet. Billions more would have been left behind. They're all dead. That takes a sustained campaign of genocide. You can't kill every man, woman, child, elderly person, everyone in justified self defence. It just doesn't happen. Eventually you're going to be gunning down refugees, people trying to flee or surrender.

And the Geth did it. They're real merciful if you're flying away at FTL (where ME ships can't actually hit anything), but if you're on the same planet as they are, they will kill you in the face. And your children.

Never got explained. Too busy being shown the slide show of Self Sacrificing Geth Throughout History.

Exactly. It's one of the reasons I roll my eyes when people go on and on about how peaceful the geth are. They were just as bad as the quarians were.

Completely ignoring the fact some Quarians were killed by their own people and that we don't know how long the war went on before the Quarians finally fled.

[Skull Bearer]

I think the option to broker peace at the end of the Rannoch section pretty much summed up exactly what my character wanted to say to the Quarians: "Pull out now or get torn to pieces, because I am DONE saving your arses."

[136th]

Commander Shepard to the Geth: Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide.