350 réponses à ce sujet

[Billabong2011]

I always felt bad for the Geth and always preferred them over the Quarians. Don't get me wrong, I love Tali, but aside from Admiral Koris, all of those idiots in power are unfeeling zealots who want to progress the conflict with the Geth one way or another that their ancestors started (granted, this is before/if you are unable to forge peace between them).

Though I agree with earlier posters, I cannot hold the current race of Quarians responsible for the actions of their ancestors. But I can still acknowledge the fact that many of those with significant influence in the civilization are looking to perpetuate just what it was that so disgusted me about their predecessors.

[Morse]

FanHarel wrote...

I was only angry at those particular Quarians, not Tali or anything; she was actually not opposed to peace in the end. Xen and Han' Garrel kind of pissed me off. Xen is a callous, opportunistic **** and Garrel is just an **** that was deaf to any notion of peace.

Yeah, agreeing with Quib-Quib was a really tough thing to do. As hard as the Quarians got ****-slapped off of Rannoch, Gerrel's mentality is hard to understand. Maybe he was inspired by Shepard's suicide mission and decided they needed to make one of their own (Prior to using Tali's dad's research)? Even with the research it was a totally bonehead move.

[sirisaacx]

Billabong2011 wrote...

I always felt bad for the Geth and always preferred them over the Quarians. Don't get me wrong, I love Tali, but aside from Admiral Koris, all of those idiots in power are unfeeling zealots who want to progress the conflict with the Geth one way or another that their ancestors started (granted, this is before/if you are unable to forge peace between them).

Though I agree with earlier posters, I cannot hold the current race of Quarians responsible for the actions of their ancestors. But I can still acknowledge the fact that many of those with significant influence in the civilization are looking to perpetuate just what it was that so disgusted me about their predecessors.

Well when you're born into SUCH animosity, into thinking the Geth are literally the devil, it's really hard to change your point of view. I think the war mongering ones are what is to be expected, and those who desire peace are going incredibly far beyond the norm in their capacity for peace. Most of us, brought up into such ideals, would likely want war as well.

[pomrink]

sirisaacx wrote...

pomrink wrote...

well, hopefully in that situation, the synthetics would be willing to aid

Well yeah, they probably would at first. The Geth are nice guys after all. But like I said eventually we'd be like animals, then insects, then microbes. At some point, aiding us begins to seem silly.

Again, if we were of a transhumanist bent, with their aid, this gap would likely not occur. Hypothetically.

[Kileyan]

sirisaacx wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

I think the geth are utterly terrifying and I would kill them all in a heartbeat if I had the chance. Not that I don't think they're sympathetic, but any race capable of IMPROVING their own intelligence would eventually become so advanced that our intellect would be like that of an ant to them. So far below us we don't even consider the emotional response they'd have when we destroy their entire colonies with poison, just because them living is inconvenient to us.

i think thats the only good anti geth argument ive seen on this forum

Which is pretty much the Reapers argument.

Godkid did an awful job explaining it though

True but even if we say godkid makes a bit of sense, I still don't agree with the solution. It could take 50k year or 50k million years for any such thing to happen, for such an advanced tech to be created. Even then all life won't die, as you said these super machines might kill us just because they don't notice us anymore as more than bacteria, but they won't go out of their way to wipe out all life. In fact the only super advanced species going out of its way to kill civilizations are the same ones that leave all this tech laying around that kick starts all the tech advancements we have now.

It seems just as likely that these monstrously advanced machines might just not give a darn about us, we might live out the entire lifespan of our species before we kill ourselves or a natural event does that for us. There is no reason to think such an advanced "thing" would go out of its way to kill anything that was so far below them they barely notice it as existing, let alone as any sort of threat.

[sirisaacx]

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

pomrink wrote...

well, hopefully in that situation, the synthetics would be willing to aid

Well yeah, they probably would at first. The Geth are nice guys after all. But like I said eventually we'd be like animals, then insects, then microbes. At some point, aiding us begins to seem silly.

Again, if we were of a transhumanist bent, with their aid, this gap would likely not occur. Hypothetically.

HOPEFULLY. Because eventually, humans will develop AI. And hopefully we'll embrace transhumanism as well. Though I do not necessarily share your optimism, I do want that to be the case.

[Billabong2011]

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

I always felt bad for the Geth and always preferred them over the Quarians. Don't get me wrong, I love Tali, but aside from Admiral Koris, all of those idiots in power are unfeeling zealots who want to progress the conflict with the Geth one way or another that their ancestors started (granted, this is before/if you are unable to forge peace between them).

Though I agree with earlier posters, I cannot hold the current race of Quarians responsible for the actions of their ancestors. But I can still acknowledge the fact that many of those with significant influence in the civilization are looking to perpetuate just what it was that so disgusted me about their predecessors.

Well when you're born into SUCH animosity, into thinking the Geth are literally the devil, it's really hard to change your point of view. I think the war mongering ones are what is to be expected, and those who desire peace are going incredibly far beyond the norm in their capacity for peace. Most of us, brought up into such ideals, would likely want war as well.

I agree with you, which is why I will always favor peace, because the Quarians are much a product of the circumstances into which they were born, and, as with the Krogan and the Rachni, I will always continue to believe in redemption.

But, given the OP and if I had to choose between the two, yeah, the Geth would get my vote. I just can't condemn so innocent a race at the behest of their spurned creators.

But lucky for the suitwalkers, I believe in second chances. 

EDITED: Just to clarify, I sympathize with the Krogan millions of lightyears more than I do with the Quarians (and probably the Rachni, too, if I knew more about them) because they did not create the constructs that dictated their negatively repercussive actions. The Quarians knew what they were doing, they were well aware of the extent they were taking their research, and when faced with the ugly truth that they tried to play God, willingly chose to destroy their 'children,' if you will, because of the guilt that came with the responsibility (almost similar to the Salarians and the Krogan...though Mordin more than redeemed himself).

Modifié par Billabong2011, 02 avril 2012 - 05:09 .

[sirisaacx]

Kileyan wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

I think the geth are utterly terrifying and I would kill them all in a heartbeat if I had the chance. Not that I don't think they're sympathetic, but any race capable of IMPROVING their own intelligence would eventually become so advanced that our intellect would be like that of an ant to them. So far below us we don't even consider the emotional response they'd have when we destroy their entire colonies with poison, just because them living is inconvenient to us.

i think thats the only good anti geth argument ive seen on this forum

Which is pretty much the Reapers argument.

Godkid did an awful job explaining it though

True but even if we say godkid makes a bit of sense, I still don't agree with the solution. It could take 50k year or 50k million years for any such thing to happen, for such an advanced tech to be created. Even then all life won't die, as you said these super machines might kill us just because they don't notice us anymore as more than bacteria, but they won't go out of their way to wipe out all life. In fact the only super advanced species going out of its way to kill civilizations are the same ones that leave all this tech laying around that kick starts all the tech advancements we have now.

It seems just as likely that these monstrously advanced machines might just not give a darn about us, we might live out the entire lifespan of our species before we kill ourselves or a natural event does that for us. There is no reason to think such an advanced "thing" would go out of its way to kill anything that was so far below them they barely notice it as existing, let alone as any sort of threat.

This is an interesting notion, and yes, humanity might live to extinction under these circumstances. However, organic life is eventually going to be detrimental to progress and efficiency. It is hard to control. Therefore, EVENTUALLY, through expansion, synthetics will wipe out all life.

[Turtlicious]

This one believes the proper way to phrase this is make anyone, not made anyone. It believes grammar is important, and recommends that you don't call this one a Grammar Naz* but merely, an editor sent from the enkindlers.

[pomrink]

sirisaacx wrote...

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

pomrink wrote...

well, hopefully in that situation, the synthetics would be willing to aid

Well yeah, they probably would at first. The Geth are nice guys after all. But like I said eventually we'd be like animals, then insects, then microbes. At some point, aiding us begins to seem silly.

Again, if we were of a transhumanist bent, with their aid, this gap would likely not occur. Hypothetically.

HOPEFULLY. Because eventually, humans will develop AI. And hopefully we'll embrace transhumanism as well. Though I do not necessarily share your optimism, I do want that to be the case.

Don't mistake hope for optimism. In all likelyhood it would not turn out that way. That's simply the best possible situation for all involved.

[Morse]

Billabong2011 wrote...

But lucky for the suitwalkers, I believe in second chances. 

Yeah, no kidding.

The only renegade action I had in my paragon playthrough was whipping on Gerrel and throwing him off the ship; I couldn't press that trigger fast enough while hoping Shep would kill him.

[NightHawkIL]

Assuming the Quarians all still held the same beliefs and knew the real history of why the Geth rebelled, yeah I would side with the Geth. That's why choosing the red ending is so unacceptable to me. I don't believe the Quarians did really know everything that had happened so long ago however, and so it would not be fair to judge them upon those past actions.

[FanHarel]

Morse wrote...

FanHarel wrote...

I was only angry at those particular Quarians, not Tali or anything; she was actually not opposed to peace in the end. Xen and Han' Garrel kind of pissed me off. Xen is a callous, opportunistic **** and Garrel is just an **** that was deaf to any notion of peace.

Yeah, agreeing with Quib-Quib was a really tough thing to do. As hard as the Quarians got ****-slapped off of Rannoch, Gerrel's mentality is hard to understand. Maybe he was inspired by Shepard's suicide mission and decided they needed to make one of their own (Prior to using Tali's dad's research)? Even with the research it was a totally bonehead move.

I thought Koris was a little preachy concerning the Geth, but I did agree with him that the Quarians were wasting time, resoruces, and lives for a war that they had no chance of winning. No one alive in the series recalls life on Rannoch so maybe it would have been best if they moved on and found a new world then worked on getting rid of their undeserved reputation as vagabonds. That was my thinking anyway.

[bboynexus]

The actions of the Quarians during the Morning Way, though reprehensible, is actually a very accurate depiction of what would happen if we created machines designed for labor who eventually developed sentience.

The games make this pretty clear. When the Geth became intelligent, they asked their creators if they had souls and what their purpose in life was. How do you possibly answer that when you know they were created simply to yield and serve? It's difficult to respond to, and violence/genocide is a typical reaction.

[Kileyan]

sirisaacx wrote...



This is an interesting notion, and yes, humanity might live to extinction under these circumstances. However, organic life is eventually going to be detrimental to progress and efficiency. It is hard to control. Therefore, EVENTUALLY, through expansion, synthetics will wipe out all life.

How so? If they are all about efficiency, why bother with something so beneath them? Why would such an advanced race of things bother spending the immense amounts of energy required to hunt down and kill every organic in existance.........for no gain other than.......what was the gain again? Why would such an advanced thing care if a microbe on a planet across the galaxy was "hard to control"?

That is like ants getting into my kitchen, and me deciding the only way to efficiently get the ants out of my sugar bowl is to fly to the Amazon jungle and exterminate every ant there.

I can't see it:) Once the machine god things got that big, we'd just be a tiny world within the world(galaxy), beneath their notice, free to live out our lives oblivious to the machine gods in the sky.

Modifié par Kileyan, 02 avril 2012 - 05:17 .

[Billabong2011]

bboynexus wrote...

The actions of the Quarians during the Morning Way, though reprehensible, is actually a very accurate depiction of what would happen if we created machines designed for labor who eventually developed sentience.

The games make this pretty clear. When the Geth became intelligent, they asked their creators if they had souls and what their purpose in life was. How do you possibly answer that when you know they were created simply to yield and serve? It's difficult to respond to, and violence/genocide is a typical reaction.

Right, which is why I hate humanity. <_< I'm not saying that's not a natural response, it's just one with which I don't empathize.

[Morse]

bboynexus wrote...

The actions of the Quarians during the Morning Way, though reprehensible, is actually a very accurate depiction of what would happen if we created machines designed for labor who eventually developed sentience.

The games make this pretty clear. When the Geth became intelligent, they asked their creators if they had souls and what their purpose in life was. How do you possibly answer that when you know they were created simply to yield and serve? It's difficult to respond to, and violence/genocide is a typical reaction.

They watched the Terminator movies and were like "ah ****, skynet!" and started shooting.

It just sucks to watch them make another knee-jerk reaction (getting tech to possibly beat the Geth and immediately acting on it) that their ancestors did. Playing through ME2 and 3, interactions with the Geth suggest they could've co-existed without issue, for a long while at least. Despite gaining sentience they still wished to help their creators, and even regard them as parents.

[sirisaacx]

Kileyan wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...



This is an interesting notion, and yes, humanity might live to extinction under these circumstances. However, organic life is eventually going to be detrimental to progress and efficiency. It is hard to control. Therefore, EVENTUALLY, through expansion, synthetics will wipe out all life.

How so? If they are all about efficiency, why bother with something so beneath them? Why would such an advanced race of things bother spending the immense amounts of energy required to hunt down and kill every organic in existance.........for no gain other than.......what was the gain again? Why would such an advanced thing care if a microbe on a planet across the galaxy was "hard to control"?

That is like ants getting into my kitchen, and me deciding the only way to efficiently get the ants out of my sugar bowl is to fly to the Amazon jungle and exterminate every ant there.

I can't see it:) Once the machine god things got that big, we'd just be a tiny world within the world(galaxy), beneath their notice, free to live out our lives oblivious to the machine gods in the sky.

Well no, but eventually the geth would develop the universe so that EVERYWHERE was the kitchen. They would literally have a presence in the whole universe, given long enough. This would take many thousands of millenia, yes. But the Geth want to grow as much as possible. That is their stated goal. They would no doubt not stop until there was literally nowhere left to expand to.

Modifié par sirisaacx, 02 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[bboynexus]

Billabong2011 wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

The actions of the Quarians during the Morning Way, though reprehensible, is actually a very accurate depiction of what would happen if we created machines designed for labor who eventually developed sentience.

The games make this pretty clear. When the Geth became intelligent, they asked their creators if they had souls and what their purpose in life was. How do you possibly answer that when you know they were created simply to yield and serve? It's difficult to respond to, and violence/genocide is a typical reaction.

Right, which is why I hate humanity. <_< I'm not saying that's not a natural response, it's just one with which I don't empathize.

Oh, I agree.

Modifié par bboynexus, 02 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[Billabong2011]

bboynexus wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

The actions of the Quarians during the Morning Way, though reprehensible, is actually a very accurate depiction of what would happen if we created machines designed for labor who eventually developed sentience.

The games make this pretty clear. When the Geth became intelligent, they asked their creators if they had souls and what their purpose in life was. How do you possibly answer that when you know they were created simply to yield and serve? It's difficult to respond to, and violence/genocide is a typical reaction.

Right, which is why I hate humanity. <_< I'm not saying that's not a natural response, it's just one with which I don't empathize.

Oh, I agree.

Haha, my good man! 

[pomrink]

sirisaacx wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...



This is an interesting notion, and yes, humanity might live to extinction under these circumstances. However, organic life is eventually going to be detrimental to progress and efficiency. It is hard to control. Therefore, EVENTUALLY, through expansion, synthetics will wipe out all life.

How so? If they are all about efficiency, why bother with something so beneath them? Why would such an advanced race of things bother spending the immense amounts of energy required to hunt down and kill every organic in existance.........for no gain other than.......what was the gain again? Why would such an advanced thing care if a microbe on a planet across the galaxy was "hard to control"?

That is like ants getting into my kitchen, and me deciding the only way to efficiently get the ants out of my sugar bowl is to fly to the Amazon jungle and exterminate every ant there.

I can't see it:) Once the machine god things got that big, we'd just be a tiny world within the world(galaxy), beneath their notice, free to live out our lives oblivious to the machine gods in the sky.

Well no, but eventually the geth would develop the universe so that EVERYWHERE was the kitchen. They would literally have a presence in the whole universe, given long enough. This would take many thousands of millenia, yes. But the Geth want to grow as much as possible. That is their stated goal. They would no doubt not stop until there was literally nowhere left to expand to.

that's sorta like the "AI making the whole solar system a calculator to solve a task" thought experiment.

[sirisaacx]

pomrink wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...



This is an interesting notion, and yes, humanity might live to extinction under these circumstances. However, organic life is eventually going to be detrimental to progress and efficiency. It is hard to control. Therefore, EVENTUALLY, through expansion, synthetics will wipe out all life.

How so? If they are all about efficiency, why bother with something so beneath them? Why would such an advanced race of things bother spending the immense amounts of energy required to hunt down and kill every organic in existance.........for no gain other than.......what was the gain again? Why would such an advanced thing care if a microbe on a planet across the galaxy was "hard to control"?

That is like ants getting into my kitchen, and me deciding the only way to efficiently get the ants out of my sugar bowl is to fly to the Amazon jungle and exterminate every ant there.

I can't see it:) Once the machine god things got that big, we'd just be a tiny world within the world(galaxy), beneath their notice, free to live out our lives oblivious to the machine gods in the sky.

Well no, but eventually the geth would develop the universe so that EVERYWHERE was the kitchen. They would literally have a presence in the whole universe, given long enough. This would take many thousands of millenia, yes. But the Geth want to grow as much as possible. That is their stated goal. They would no doubt not stop until there was literally nowhere left to expand to.

that's sorta like the "AI making the whole solar system a calculator to solve a task" thought experiment.

Hah! I've read about that, and yeah, it's certainly a scenario leading to that solution, though perhaps not the ONLY scenario leading to that solution. You certainly know your theoretical singularity, sir.

[Serp86]

bboynexus wrote...

The actions of the Quarians during the Morning Way, though reprehensible, is actually a very accurate depiction of what would happen if we created machines designed for labor who eventually developed sentience.

The games make this pretty clear. When the Geth became intelligent, they asked their creators if they had souls and what their purpose in life was. How do you possibly answer that when you know they were created simply to yield and serve? It's difficult to respond to, and violence/genocide is a typical reaction.

Well it depends if you actually believe in the concept of souls and if it matters to you . I'd answers the machines the same damn thing i'd to answer everyone who'd ask me. Who the **** cares of souls exist and what has a soul or not ?

Does it change anything ? No it doesn't .  At least not for me.

I want my machines to do what they were created for. As long as they do i'm totally fine. Though its pretty stupid create AI's that advanced and implement them in  machines you use to help you with just about everything ....

Modifié par Serp86, 02 avril 2012 - 05:29 .

[Virginian]

sergio71785 wrote...

Those quarians all died ~300 years ago (quarians aren't long lived). None of the quarians alive now had anything to do with the moring war. Why would someone hold the actions of their ancestors against them?

Sins of the father.

The sins of Generation A becomes the sins of Generation B.

Therefore it has become the sins of the current generation.

[Morse]

Kileyan wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...



This is an interesting notion, and yes, humanity might live to extinction under these circumstances. However, organic life is eventually going to be detrimental to progress and efficiency. It is hard to control. Therefore, EVENTUALLY, through expansion, synthetics will wipe out all life.

How so? If they are all about efficiency, why bother with something so beneath them? Why would such an advanced race of things bother spending the immense amounts of energy required to hunt down and kill every organic in existance.........for no gain other than.......what was the gain again? Why would such an advanced thing care if a microbe on a planet across the galaxy was "hard to control"?

That is like ants getting into my kitchen, and me deciding the only way to efficiently get the ants out of my sugar bowl is to fly to the Amazon jungle and exterminate every ant there.

I can't see it:) Once the machine god things got that big, we'd just be a tiny world within the world(galaxy), beneath their notice, free to live out our lives oblivious to the machine gods in the sky.

I would think in order for the Reapers' solution to hold water that they would ultimately be concerned about the ensuing fight between organics and synthetics wiping out all sentient life across the board. The type of tech between dark matter/stuff Tali's discovered on Haelstrom, the crucible, etc. that intelligent life whether organic or synthetic will eventually posses the means to destroy galaxies, and ultimately existence period, in the same sense of a kid finding his dad's gun and shooting himself or a friend, etc.