350 réponses à ce sujet

[sirisaacx]

jarms48 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Haha love is NOT enough to forgive someone for the genocide of your people. If I were tali I'd just kill myself later on the Normandy or something. I like the binary choice. It's all or nothing, for either race. Makes the choice a lot harder and more potent.

Shhhhh, leave me with me idiocies. :innocent:

I saved them both anyway so it doesn't matter.

Hahaha. I'm just a huge pragmatist. In real life, I'd kill the geth and the krogan. Not worth the risk. Not with humanity at stake. 

Of course I saved them all in game. The characters are just too loveable! But if these things were actually on the line, bye bye wrex.

[pomrink]

Olueq wrote...

pomrink wrote...

I thought the geth would be worth all the other war assets combined. I mean, every single platform is combat ready(billions). They have the largest fleet. Unparalleled communication abilities. Why am I bothering with the quarians?

because you would be killing millions of innocent people? Honestly, how can you say that? Do people ever stop to think of their actions?

Not to mention the geth have proven so many times in the past that they are succeptible to being brain washed, and not just from the reapers. The also have a bad habit of joining the reapers, especially at times where they are losing. Whos to say they dont just turn on you in the final confrontation?

I was speaking from a Pragmatic!shepard standpoint. i'm also not going to respond to your second blurb, because i dont feel like repeating arguments others have made on those subjects

[Olueq]

pomrink wrote...

Olueq wrote...

pomrink wrote...

I thought the geth would be worth all the other war assets combined. I mean, every single platform is combat ready(billions). They have the largest fleet. Unparalleled communication abilities. Why am I bothering with the quarians?

because you would be killing millions of innocent people? Honestly, how can you say that? Do people ever stop to think of their actions?

Not to mention the geth have proven so many times in the past that they are succeptible to being brain washed, and not just from the reapers. The also have a bad habit of joining the reapers, especially at times where they are losing. Whos to say they dont just turn on you in the final confrontation?

I was speaking from a Pragmatic!shepard standpoint. i'm also not going to respond to your second blurb, because i dont feel like repeating arguments others have made on those subjects

well as long a you admit you are wrong.

[Billabong2011]

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Might you have forgotten the fact that their own planet had been decimated because of the technology the Salarians gave them? It was pretty much equivalent to giving a child a loaded gun, 'go on, son, go out and play!' So I can understand why they'd seek out new worlds -- I understand your point in that they were completely aggressive and hostile about it, and violent, as is their nature, but, again, this was not a self-created situation. Of course I hold the Krogan responsible for their actions, but those actions were ULTIMATELY reactions to extenuating circumstances, whereas the Quarians were the initial action from the getgo. If you want to look at anyone 'being their OWN downfall,' it would be the Quarians.

True, the Salarians REALLY ruined their progression. The Krogan were not ready for that kind of technological power. But the Krogans did nuke themselves into a nuclear winter. They're a pretty flawed species, even without Salarian intervention. True, they might have worked out their issues. But are all races really even WORTHY of survival? I'dventure so far as to say perhaps the Krogan are not.

I'd say every species is worthy of survival, even the Reapers, it just depends on the prism through which you view said species. If I wanted to exterminate all advanced sentient life, then yes, the Reapers are worthy of existence. In terms of earning the right to seek redemption, I would say the Krogan outrank the Quarians, just as I would also venture to say that most people (not me) would say in terms of what is BEST for the galactic whole in terms of peacekeeping would be saving the Quarians over the Krogan.

[Morse]

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Olueq wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

At no point did the quarians ever attempt to sue for peace in the 300 years since the Morning War. Hell, they still don't even treat the Geth as truly sentient beings for the most part. So yes, I can blame them for what their ancestors did, because they didn't learn anything from it. If you're going to be so stupid on a racial scale you deserve your self-inflicted genocide.

ummm the GETH never attempted to make peace and the only contact anyone has had with them is through the heretics. Remember ME1? How can you blame anyone for not trying to contact the geth? If anything, the geth should have said `` Oh, those are heretics, not us, so dont get the wrong  idea.`` Instead, you blame millions of innocent people? Ya, Im sure children had a say in politics.

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid. Even then, that was clearly an oversight in ME3.

More than they ever had before, and Legion's presence alone should've been enough to show that there was reason to consider the possibility of reconciliation - granting him access to the Flotilla gave the Geth the opportunity to solve any problems they've ever had with the Quarians, and instead he helps them clean out heretics.

[Potatomade]

I actually wound up liking the Quarians more after seeing what they were like during the Morning War, simply because there was an important minority that decided to help the Geth and resist the warmongers. To me the whole conflict boils down to the peace-loving Quarians being shouted down by the warmongers, even if the pro-peace side is the majority. That's why I liked being able to end the war peacefully, because it was the first time in any of the games where the pro-peace side could get their way.

[sirisaacx]

Billabong2011 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Might you have forgotten the fact that their own planet had been decimated because of the technology the Salarians gave them? It was pretty much equivalent to giving a child a loaded gun, 'go on, son, go out and play!' So I can understand why they'd seek out new worlds -- I understand your point in that they were completely aggressive and hostile about it, and violent, as is their nature, but, again, this was not a self-created situation. Of course I hold the Krogan responsible for their actions, but those actions were ULTIMATELY reactions to extenuating circumstances, whereas the Quarians were the initial action from the getgo. If you want to look at anyone 'being their OWN downfall,' it would be the Quarians.

True, the Salarians REALLY ruined their progression. The Krogan were not ready for that kind of technological power. But the Krogans did nuke themselves into a nuclear winter. They're a pretty flawed species, even without Salarian intervention. True, they might have worked out their issues. But are all races really even WORTHY of survival? I'dventure so far as to say perhaps the Krogan are not.

I'd say every species is worthy of survival, even the Reapers, it just depends on the prism through which you view said species. If I wanted to exterminate all advanced sentient life, then yes, the Reapers are worthy of existence. In terms of earning the right to seek redemption, I would say the Krogan outrank the Quarians, just as I would also venture to say that most people (not me) would say in terms of what is BEST for the galactic whole in terms of peacekeeping would be saving the Quarians over the Krogan.

Hmm. Well I think the majority of the Quarians have learned from their mistake. Wheras the majority of Krogan have not. For instance, the Quarians (except Xen) seem terrified of AI now, and Xen seems to be in a position of minority. Everyone thinks she's a nutcase, if a helpful one. Whereas talk to pretty much any Krogan excluding Wrex and they just want to fight.

[Billabong2011]

Potatomade wrote...

I actually wound up liking the Quarians more after seeing what they were like during the Morning War, simply because there was an important minority that decided to help the Geth and resist the warmongers. To me the whole conflict boils down to the peace-loving Quarians being shouted down by the warmongers, even if the pro-peace side is the majority. That's why I liked being able to end the war peacefully, because it was the first time in any of the games where the pro-peace side could get their way.

This is so very true!! The one Quarian who died defending the Geth..... I admired him more than 99% of the rest of the characters in the series. 

[Thighs_of_thor]

Yes, I liked the geth more when I heard they were more or less neutral in ME2.
However, what really got me was when the Quarians decided to go to war in the middle of a damn reaper invasion. If I couldn't have saved both, I would have sided with the geth.

[jarms48]

sirisaacx wrote...

Hahaha. I'm just a huge pragmatist. In real life, I'd kill the geth and the krogan. Not worth the risk. Not with humanity at stake. 

Of course I saved them all in game. The characters are just too loveable! But if these things were actually on the line, bye bye wrex.

In real life I would also kill the Krogan, not sure about the Geth being machines and being more predictable.

[CELL55]

At first my Paragon option was greyed out , so I chose the quarians. When Legion objected, I got a Paragon option and got to keep both races! YAY! (Until everyone died in the ending, of course)
My reasoning was that I figured that the Quarians had more ships, but the Geth had more advanced ships. I figured the complexity of the ship wouldn't matter when facing the Reapers, so it would be better to give the Reapers many, weaker targets to keep them occupied for longer. Also, this is the second time that the geth have worked with the Reapers, and I wasn't too keen to try for a third chance.
However, I chose to rewrite the geth in ME2, which weakens the quarians in ME3, so my previous logic would have been for naught had I not been able to get both of them.

[Billabong2011]

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Might you have forgotten the fact that their own planet had been decimated because of the technology the Salarians gave them? It was pretty much equivalent to giving a child a loaded gun, 'go on, son, go out and play!' So I can understand why they'd seek out new worlds -- I understand your point in that they were completely aggressive and hostile about it, and violent, as is their nature, but, again, this was not a self-created situation. Of course I hold the Krogan responsible for their actions, but those actions were ULTIMATELY reactions to extenuating circumstances, whereas the Quarians were the initial action from the getgo. If you want to look at anyone 'being their OWN downfall,' it would be the Quarians.

True, the Salarians REALLY ruined their progression. The Krogan were not ready for that kind of technological power. But the Krogans did nuke themselves into a nuclear winter. They're a pretty flawed species, even without Salarian intervention. True, they might have worked out their issues. But are all races really even WORTHY of survival? I'dventure so far as to say perhaps the Krogan are not.

I'd say every species is worthy of survival, even the Reapers, it just depends on the prism through which you view said species. If I wanted to exterminate all advanced sentient life, then yes, the Reapers are worthy of existence. In terms of earning the right to seek redemption, I would say the Krogan outrank the Quarians, just as I would also venture to say that most people (not me) would say in terms of what is BEST for the galactic whole in terms of peacekeeping would be saving the Quarians over the Krogan.

Hmm. Well I think the majority of the Quarians have learned from their mistake. Wheras the majority of Krogan have not. For instance, the Quarians (except Xen) seem terrified of AI now, and Xen seems to be in a position of minority. Everyone thinks she's a nutcase, if a helpful one. Whereas talk to pretty much any Krogan excluding Wrex and they just want to fight.

Wait, what? They're terrified of AI now? ... So wouldn't that mean they're prone to repeating history, seeing as it was fear that propelled them into violence in the first place?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I would argue that a Krogan being violent in nature differs from a Quarian harboring a vendetta against the Geth - not that the Krogan didn't want revenge on the Salarians//Turians, but, in actuality, there were never any real uprisings following the Rebellions, just extreme dislike and racism, whereas the Quarians were quite proactive in their opposition towards the Geth.

[sirisaacx]

Billabong2011 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Might you have forgotten the fact that their own planet had been decimated because of the technology the Salarians gave them? It was pretty much equivalent to giving a child a loaded gun, 'go on, son, go out and play!' So I can understand why they'd seek out new worlds -- I understand your point in that they were completely aggressive and hostile about it, and violent, as is their nature, but, again, this was not a self-created situation. Of course I hold the Krogan responsible for their actions, but those actions were ULTIMATELY reactions to extenuating circumstances, whereas the Quarians were the initial action from the getgo. If you want to look at anyone 'being their OWN downfall,' it would be the Quarians.

True, the Salarians REALLY ruined their progression. The Krogan were not ready for that kind of technological power. But the Krogans did nuke themselves into a nuclear winter. They're a pretty flawed species, even without Salarian intervention. True, they might have worked out their issues. But are all races really even WORTHY of survival? I'dventure so far as to say perhaps the Krogan are not.

I'd say every species is worthy of survival, even the Reapers, it just depends on the prism through which you view said species. If I wanted to exterminate all advanced sentient life, then yes, the Reapers are worthy of existence. In terms of earning the right to seek redemption, I would say the Krogan outrank the Quarians, just as I would also venture to say that most people (not me) would say in terms of what is BEST for the galactic whole in terms of peacekeeping would be saving the Quarians over the Krogan.

Hmm. Well I think the majority of the Quarians have learned from their mistake. Wheras the majority of Krogan have not. For instance, the Quarians (except Xen) seem terrified of AI now, and Xen seems to be in a position of minority. Everyone thinks she's a nutcase, if a helpful one. Whereas talk to pretty much any Krogan excluding Wrex and they just want to fight.

Wait, what? They're terrified of AI now? ... So wouldn't that mean they're prone to repeating history, seeing as it was fear that propelled them into violence in the first place?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I would argue that a Krogan being violent in nature differs from a Quarian harboring a vendetta against the Geth - not that the Krogan didn't want revenge on the Salarians//Turians, but, in actuality, there were never any real uprisings following the Rebellions, just extreme dislike and racism, whereas the Quarians were quite proactive in their opposition towards the Geth.

Well I think everyone should be terrified of AI. But I think as long as no one creates synthetic life again, the quarians would be fine members of society. And there were only no uprisings because the Krogan weren't organized or strong enough to mount a counteroffensive without going extinct.

[Olueq]

EVERYONE hates the geth. Remember the only contact the galaxy has with the geth is with the heretics and they attacked the citadel, remember? the quarians hating the geth is nothing unique. Hardly anyone even knows that the geth are willing to be peaceful and that is still going by the word of ONE geth.

Modifié par Olueq, 02 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[LystAP]

sirisaacx wrote...

jarms48 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Haha love is NOT enough to forgive someone for the genocide of your people. If I were tali I'd just kill myself later on the Normandy or something. I like the binary choice. It's all or nothing, for either race. Makes the choice a lot harder and more potent.

Shhhhh, leave me with me idiocies. :innocent:

I saved them both anyway so it doesn't matter.

Hahaha. I'm just a huge pragmatist. In real life, I'd kill the geth and the krogan. Not worth the risk. Not with humanity at stake. 

Of course I saved them all in game. The characters are just too loveable! But if these things were actually on the line, bye bye wrex.

I suppose; your arguments do seem to verify the Catalyst's contention about synthetics. Going from what I can presume from your viewpoint about the dangers of synthetic life, the Catalyst was indeed correct to implement the Reaper cycle. The Reapers hold back rapid development of both organic and synthetic intelligences through their reaping, ensuring galactic stability in the long term. 

From a completely logical and practical viewpoint, the Catalyst and Reapers are correct. 

Modifié par LystAP, 02 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[Exicuren]

Honeslty, yes if it weren't for Tali i would have sided with the geth (i chose peace), admiral xen is the perfect example of those bastards.

[sirisaacx]

jarms48 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Hahaha. I'm just a huge pragmatist. In real life, I'd kill the geth and the krogan. Not worth the risk. Not with humanity at stake. 

Of course I saved them all in game. The characters are just too loveable! But if these things were actually on the line, bye bye wrex.

In real life I would also kill the Krogan, not sure about the Geth being machines and being more predictable.

Interesting. I'd sooner let the Krogan live than the Geth. They're predictable, yes, but their predictable pattern would be to advance far beyond being our equals. The Geth would eventually be a greater potential threat than the Krogan could even dream of posing.

[Billabong2011]

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Might you have forgotten the fact that their own planet had been decimated because of the technology the Salarians gave them? It was pretty much equivalent to giving a child a loaded gun, 'go on, son, go out and play!' So I can understand why they'd seek out new worlds -- I understand your point in that they were completely aggressive and hostile about it, and violent, as is their nature, but, again, this was not a self-created situation. Of course I hold the Krogan responsible for their actions, but those actions were ULTIMATELY reactions to extenuating circumstances, whereas the Quarians were the initial action from the getgo. If you want to look at anyone 'being their OWN downfall,' it would be the Quarians.

True, the Salarians REALLY ruined their progression. The Krogan were not ready for that kind of technological power. But the Krogans did nuke themselves into a nuclear winter. They're a pretty flawed species, even without Salarian intervention. True, they might have worked out their issues. But are all races really even WORTHY of survival? I'dventure so far as to say perhaps the Krogan are not.

I'd say every species is worthy of survival, even the Reapers, it just depends on the prism through which you view said species. If I wanted to exterminate all advanced sentient life, then yes, the Reapers are worthy of existence. In terms of earning the right to seek redemption, I would say the Krogan outrank the Quarians, just as I would also venture to say that most people (not me) would say in terms of what is BEST for the galactic whole in terms of peacekeeping would be saving the Quarians over the Krogan.

Hmm. Well I think the majority of the Quarians have learned from their mistake. Wheras the majority of Krogan have not. For instance, the Quarians (except Xen) seem terrified of AI now, and Xen seems to be in a position of minority. Everyone thinks she's a nutcase, if a helpful one. Whereas talk to pretty much any Krogan excluding Wrex and they just want to fight.

Wait, what? They're terrified of AI now? ... So wouldn't that mean they're prone to repeating history, seeing as it was fear that propelled them into violence in the first place?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I would argue that a Krogan being violent in nature differs from a Quarian harboring a vendetta against the Geth - not that the Krogan didn't want revenge on the Salarians//Turians, but, in actuality, there were never any real uprisings following the Rebellions, just extreme dislike and racism, whereas the Quarians were quite proactive in their opposition towards the Geth.

Well I think everyone should be terrified of AI. But I think as long as no one creates synthetic life again, the quarians would be fine members of society. And there were only no uprisings because the Krogan weren't organized or strong enough to mount a counteroffensive without going extinct.

But then we're basing our opinions off of suppositions. So going off of just plain fact, the Krogan will have been cured of the genophage, by a SALARIAN, before they reach the numbers and level of organization necessary to mount a counteroffensive against those who wronged them, and the Quarians will have been aided by the Geth in reclaiming//reconstructing their homeworld should you forge peace between the two -- the difference is that one of those races already did engage its enemy in warfare, and if we're excluding supposition still, which means I sacrifice my argument from before of which of the Krogan or Quarian races were less worthy of redemption, then the Quarians are more likely to engage in war again.

[sirisaacx]

LystAP wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

jarms48 wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Haha love is NOT enough to forgive someone for the genocide of your people. If I were tali I'd just kill myself later on the Normandy or something. I like the binary choice. It's all or nothing, for either race. Makes the choice a lot harder and more potent.

Shhhhh, leave me with me idiocies. :innocent:

I saved them both anyway so it doesn't matter.

Hahaha. I'm just a huge pragmatist. In real life, I'd kill the geth and the krogan. Not worth the risk. Not with humanity at stake. 

Of course I saved them all in game. The characters are just too loveable! But if these things were actually on the line, bye bye wrex.

I suppose; your arguments do seem to verify the Catalyst's contention about synthetics. Going from what I can presume from your viewpoint about the dangers of synthetic life, the Catalyst was indeed correct to implement the Reaper cycle. The Reapers hold back rapid development of both organic and synthetic intelligences through their reaping, ensuring galactic stability in the long term. 

From a completely logical and practical viewpoint, the Catalyst and Reapers are correct. 

I actually found that aspect of the ending to be very thought provoking. It was presented horribly, and everything else about the ending was terrible, but I think if it had been better explained, it would have been a very good thought provoking point. After all, AIs ARE completely logical and practical by nature.

[moater boat]

Bigdoser wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yet the quarians went to war again even though the reapers came. The geth was preparing for the reapers and quarians just HAD to go to war. =_= Lets just say to me personally a lot of sympathy went out of the window for me when I found out they went to war with the geth. 

As far as the quarians knew, the Geth were still buddy-buddy with the reapers, meaning that from their view they were fighting the reapers long before any other race.

Then there is the little detail that the Geth DID ally with the reapers, not once, but twice. Self preservation is justifiable, but to ally with the forces that want to wipe out ALL other life? That's why you can't trust the Geth, they have never developed any sense of perspective or judgement. All they know is stay alive, no matter what the cost. For all their intelligence, they are actually more like animals.

[Catroi]

I always was supporting the Geth even in ME1, but I broke peace between the 2 (even if the Quarians didn't deserve to live)

[sirisaacx]

Billabong2011 wrote...

But then we're basing our opinions off of suppositions. So going off of just plain fact, the Krogan will have been cured of the genophage, by a SALARIAN, before they reach the numbers and level of organization necessary to mount a counteroffensive against those who wronged them, and the Quarians will have been aided by the Geth in reclaiming//reconstructing their homeworld should you forge peace between the two -- the difference is that one of those races already did engage its enemy in warfare, and if we're excluding supposition still, which means I sacrifice my argument from before of which of the Krogan or Quarian races were less worthy of redemption, then the Quarians are more likely to engage in war again.

Hmm. Your points do appeal to my rational nature. But I think that eventually, the two races will become removed from all previous conflict. And then you're left solely with their natures. I think krogan nature is more dangerous than quarian nature, as their reaction to the accidental creation of synthetics would most likely be the krogan reaction as well.

[GeoFukari]

Like how many of us want for Shepard to say: "No" to Star-Jar, I always do it.

Quarians went to war because they have lost their home. Yes, they caused the morning war, but that was 300 years ago. Yes they caused the current conflict, but with the Reapers, they are desperate, and Xen offered them a away.

Geth fought for continued existence. Yes they fought the Creators, but did they decide to exterminate (Lulz Dalek) the Quarians? No. They did however, go to the Reapers, and I do find this disturbing. Yet they were desperate.

In short, I would die before allowing this conflict to continue. If I had to choose? I would just give up the game.

[Legendaryred]

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

[Legendaryred]

moater boat wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yet the quarians went to war again even though the reapers came. The geth was preparing for the reapers and quarians just HAD to go to war. =_= Lets just say to me personally a lot of sympathy went out of the window for me when I found out they went to war with the geth. 

As far as the quarians knew, the Geth were still buddy-buddy with the reapers, meaning that from their view they were fighting the reapers long before any other race.

Then there is the little detail that the Geth DID ally with the reapers, not once, but twice. Self preservation is justifiable, but to ally with the forces that want to wipe out ALL other life? That's why you can't trust the Geth, they have never developed any sense of perspective or judgement. All they know is stay alive, no matter what the cost. For all their intelligence, they are actually more like animals.

Yea it's not like the geth could turn to the Alliance and say "Help the Quarians are attacking us and they have just blew up a station with hundreds of thousands of us aboard". Alsto take in mind that in ME3 the geth have not yet reached full individuality so you can't really blame a race for wanting to self preservate, hell the reaper's motives are to preserve themselves and organic life.