350 réponses à ce sujet

[sirisaacx]

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

The Quarians have been essentially brainwashed though not to see the Geth as equals deserving of equal treatment. They see them as machines. That's not their fault as much as it is a product of their situation and past.

[SuperVulcan]

No. I think the option of making peace should always be present in this situation. The Quarians started the war both times. The Geth are defending themselves. I find it hard to like most Quarians Shepard meets. However, the Quarians are Organic and I could never condemn someone like Tali's people to death. But the Geth don't deserve to be destroyed, either. Plus, its an easily preventable war. No matter if your Shepard is Renegade or Paragon.

[Funkdrspot]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

People who have no formal training or education on issues of a social/anthropology/economic nature should really not ever talk about them. You can't bring up slavery without looking at Jim Crow and that only FORMALLY ended in 1965 and held out much longer in the private sector until the late 80's

Plus, you can't simultaneously absolve responsibility without restitution for the said benefit/consequence of those choices. You can't rape, pillage and steal for hundreds of years then wash your hands of the matter 100 yrs later as your decendents benefit from those choices. As i stated before, To absolve yourself of your decendents choices, you would have to also give back or pay restitution for that which you benefitted from.

[Wolfva2]

I sided with the Geth. From the very beginning the Quarians worked to eradicate them once they realized they were sentient. Even though they didn't attack, and were peacefull. Even to the point of killing their own citizens who were trying to protect their synthetic friends (remember the memory of the quarian hiding the geth in the barn? So sad.) What did the Geth do when the Quarians left? They didn't pursue them though they could have. Instead they let them go.

As some pointed out, that was 300 years in the past. So let's look at the current situation (and using my playthrough as a base since it's what I know). The Quarians attack the Geth even though they told the council they wouldn't. This forces the Geth to the Reaper's side to just maintain existence. My Shepard gets there, drops the dreadnaughts shields to give them time to get away. What do they do? Attack instead. Later, cut the signal to the Geth, again so they can get away, THEY decide to attack. THEY were so hellbent on committing genocide on the Geth, I had no choice but side with the Geth against them. The Geth just wanted to be left alone to live and prosper. The Quarians insisted on wiping them out. Their own blood thirstiness did them in.

[IntrepidDeath]

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

But then we're basing our opinions off of suppositions. So going off of just plain fact, the Krogan will have been cured of the genophage, by a SALARIAN, before they reach the numbers and level of organization necessary to mount a counteroffensive against those who wronged them, and the Quarians will have been aided by the Geth in reclaiming//reconstructing their homeworld should you forge peace between the two -- the difference is that one of those races already did engage its enemy in warfare, and if we're excluding supposition still, which means I sacrifice my argument from before of which of the Krogan or Quarian races were less worthy of redemption, then the Quarians are more likely to engage in war again.

Hmm. Your points do appeal to my rational nature. But I think that eventually, the two races will become removed from all previous conflict. And then you're left solely with their natures. I think krogan nature is more dangerous than quarian nature, as their reaction to the accidental creation of synthetics would most likely be the krogan reaction as well.

Can you honestly say that the krogan nature is that inherently dangerous? Sure, they destroyed their own planet, but we humans have come pretty close to doing that ourselves. After they decimated their planet with nukes, I'd expect the more warlike people in their species to flourish more easily in the wastes of their planet than the gentler ones. Being uplifted by the salarians in that state, it wasn't surprising what came after. On the other hand, we've certainly seen pleasant krogan. Wrex is warlike, but honorable and a good leader. If Eve is to believed, the females have a tendency toward patience and peace. Someone else mentioned Charr. In ME2, there are a couple on the citadel who are concerned about fish who I think were rather pleasant. I'm certainly not going to argue that the krogan aren't more aggressive by nature than humans, but I think people overstate the severeness of their aggression, including in game, based on the interactions we have had with them.

[moater boat]

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yet the quarians went to war again even though the reapers came. The geth was preparing for the reapers and quarians just HAD to go to war. =_= Lets just say to me personally a lot of sympathy went out of the window for me when I found out they went to war with the geth. 

As far as the quarians knew, the Geth were still buddy-buddy with the reapers, meaning that from their view they were fighting the reapers long before any other race.

Then there is the little detail that the Geth DID ally with the reapers, not once, but twice. Self preservation is justifiable, but to ally with the forces that want to wipe out ALL other life? That's why you can't trust the Geth, they have never developed any sense of perspective or judgement. All they know is stay alive, no matter what the cost. For all their intelligence, they are actually more like animals.

Yea it's not like the geth could turn to the Alliance and say "Help the Quarians are attacking us and they have just blew up a station with hundreds of thousands of us aboard". Alsto take in mind that in ME3 the geth have not yet reached full individuality so you can't really blame a race for wanting to self preservate, hell the reaper's motives are to preserve themselves and organic life.

Of course they couldn't turn to the alliance, over the course of 300 years they made no effort what-so-ever to demonstrate their alleged peaceful nature.

Nor to a blame them for their self preservation instincts. As I said, it is understandable. The problem is that their self preservation instincts cause them to make really bad decisions, like allying with the reapers. Their intentions are justified, their methods cause me to question their ability to function as part of the galactic community.

[AshirahTSparkle]

If the Geth looked as intimidating as Skynet, or like Skynet, modified themselves to create "terminators" and new models that aims to intimidate others, I would not have helped them. But they were not like Skynet and they kept their lighbulb head in all of their models...even the tank-like Geth in ME1. So that says a lot about them being not violent by nature.

On a side note, anyone missed the cloaking RE-licker like Geth in ME1??

[Legendaryred]

jreezy wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid.

This.

Not one geth, bascially legion has 1 thousand and so programs. Also Legion represents the point of view of the geth who are not heretics, hence he is the only hardware unit to venture past the perseus veil.

[Cazlee]

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

Modifié par Cazlee, 02 avril 2012 - 06:36 .

[IntrepidDeath]

sirisaacx wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

The Quarians have been essentially brainwashed though not to see the Geth as equals deserving of equal treatment. They see them as machines. That's not their fault as much as it is a product of their situation and past.

It doesn't help that most Quarians seem to live most of their lives surrounded by other Quarians who have been taught the same things, thereby making it less likely that they'll be exposed to other ideas. Or that the galaxy as a whole seems to fear AI in general and more specifically the geth.

[moater boat]

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

Geth are software, they were weapon testing on hardware. Even if it resulted in destruction of the software, it's not like the Geth can feel pain. The software could have been erased before hand, or not, it really doesn't matter.

[sirisaacx]

IntrepidDeath wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

But then we're basing our opinions off of suppositions. So going off of just plain fact, the Krogan will have been cured of the genophage, by a SALARIAN, before they reach the numbers and level of organization necessary to mount a counteroffensive against those who wronged them, and the Quarians will have been aided by the Geth in reclaiming//reconstructing their homeworld should you forge peace between the two -- the difference is that one of those races already did engage its enemy in warfare, and if we're excluding supposition still, which means I sacrifice my argument from before of which of the Krogan or Quarian races were less worthy of redemption, then the Quarians are more likely to engage in war again.

Hmm. Your points do appeal to my rational nature. But I think that eventually, the two races will become removed from all previous conflict. And then you're left solely with their natures. I think krogan nature is more dangerous than quarian nature, as their reaction to the accidental creation of synthetics would most likely be the krogan reaction as well.

Can you honestly say that the krogan nature is that inherently dangerous? Sure, they destroyed their own planet, but we humans have come pretty close to doing that ourselves. After they decimated their planet with nukes, I'd expect the more warlike people in their species to flourish more easily in the wastes of their planet than the gentler ones. Being uplifted by the salarians in that state, it wasn't surprising what came after. On the other hand, we've certainly seen pleasant krogan. Wrex is warlike, but honorable and a good leader. If Eve is to believed, the females have a tendency toward patience and peace. Someone else mentioned Charr. In ME2, there are a couple on the citadel who are concerned about fish who I think were rather pleasant. I'm certainly not going to argue that the krogan aren't more aggressive by nature than humans, but I think people overstate the severeness of their aggression, including in game, based on the interactions we have had with them.

It is hinted that Wrex is a particularly special case though. I mean talk to most Krogan, like the scientist in ME2 (not Okeer, the one on Tuchanka) or WREAV, and it's pretty clear war is priority number one by quite a large margin. But that wouldn't scare me on my own. It's their ludicrously high birth rate in addition to that that gives me pause.

[Funkdrspot]

jreezy wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid.

This.

But NOT going by the ACTIONS of 2 or 3 Quarian leaders to throw their ships into a suicide run, cry to you for help, attack instead of retreat, nearly blow you up, then do the EXACT same thing AGAIN nearly 2 missions later isn't stupid?

[moater boat]

sirisaacx wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

The Quarians have been essentially brainwashed though not to see the Geth as equals deserving of equal treatment. They see them as machines. That's not their fault as much as it is a product of their situation and past.

Or maybe the Geth have been brainwashed into thinking that they ARE equals and deserving of equal treatment. Your basing your argument on presuppositions with no foundation.

[FirstCitizen800]

Every species in the galaxy that is biological and gains it greatest strength from being social, like humans, asari, salarians, krogan, ect (none of them are based on societies were the average person lives completely alone) evidence some forms of irrational thinking which are beneficial to organic survival. That's why my shepard can be a friend to members of the basic biological races, because friendship means something beyond reason. It may not be rational for my to risk myself to help a friend, especially if that friend caused there own problem and is likely to do it again, but biologicals do things like that all the time. Hell, fighting the reapers really isn't rational. But as you might notice, every biological race was pretty much committed to fighting the reapers to the end, outside of indoctrination. None said, okay, reap us last and we'll fight for you! The geth switch sides twice, because it makes sense, it's logical.

The Geth have no Churchills, and that's why they can't be trusted. The minute stabbing you in the back calculates as being +.0000000000001% advantage versus staying loyal, they'll do it. Sure, sometime organics can be illogically cruel. But they can also be illogically compassionate as well. I see no purpose in a race that can never be either ugly or beautiful.

[Funkdrspot]

sirisaacx wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

But then we're basing our opinions off of suppositions. So going off of just plain fact, the Krogan will have been cured of the genophage, by a SALARIAN, before they reach the numbers and level of organization necessary to mount a counteroffensive against those who wronged them, and the Quarians will have been aided by the Geth in reclaiming//reconstructing their homeworld should you forge peace between the two -- the difference is that one of those races already did engage its enemy in warfare, and if we're excluding supposition still, which means I sacrifice my argument from before of which of the Krogan or Quarian races were less worthy of redemption, then the Quarians are more likely to engage in war again.

Hmm. Your points do appeal to my rational nature. But I think that eventually, the two races will become removed from all previous conflict. And then you're left solely with their natures. I think krogan nature is more dangerous than quarian nature, as their reaction to the accidental creation of synthetics would most likely be the krogan reaction as well.

Can you honestly say that the krogan nature is that inherently dangerous? Sure, they destroyed their own planet, but we humans have come pretty close to doing that ourselves. After they decimated their planet with nukes, I'd expect the more warlike people in their species to flourish more easily in the wastes of their planet than the gentler ones. Being uplifted by the salarians in that state, it wasn't surprising what came after. On the other hand, we've certainly seen pleasant krogan. Wrex is warlike, but honorable and a good leader. If Eve is to believed, the females have a tendency toward patience and peace. Someone else mentioned Charr. In ME2, there are a couple on the citadel who are concerned about fish who I think were rather pleasant. I'm certainly not going to argue that the krogan aren't more aggressive by nature than humans, but I think people overstate the severeness of their aggression, including in game, based on the interactions we have had with them.

It is hinted that Wrex is a particularly special case though. I mean talk to most Krogan, like the scientist in ME2 (not Okeer, the one on Tuchanka) or WREAV, and it's pretty clear war is priority number one by quite a large margin. But that wouldn't scare me on my own. It's their ludicrously high birth rate in addition to that that gives me pause.

Take a cultural anthropology class. You'll come to appreciate how much society influences you and your morality system.

Then you should apply those lessons to the Krogan. You'll understand how it's not really their fault so much as it is the Salarians for making aggression and war the dominant trait for the Krogan.

[sirisaacx]

moater boat wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

The Quarians have been essentially brainwashed though not to see the Geth as equals deserving of equal treatment. They see them as machines. That's not their fault as much as it is a product of their situation and past.

Or maybe the Geth have been brainwashed into thinking that they ARE equals and deserving of equal treatment. Your basing your argument on presuppositions with no foundation.

Well I didn't mean so much that the geth are necessarily equals. What I meant was that regardless of the truth, the Quarians have been raised not to see them as such. In that respect, their actions are understandable. Whether the Geth actually are equals (I'd say superior) is another argument.

[Legendaryred]

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

Geth are software, they were weapon testing on hardware. Even if it resulted in destruction of the software, it's not like the Geth can feel pain. The software could have been erased before hand, or not, it really doesn't matter.

Geth are fully self aware AI which is the closes you will find to a living creature, if they were just software the Quarians wouln't have freaked out 300 years ago, and the council wouln't have put restrictions on AI development after the Geth vs Quarian. Also the war in ME3 with the Geth began because the Quarians blew up a goddam base with hundreds of thousands of "software" as you call it. Legion states that what would Shepard feel if for each human the reapers killed the overall intelligence of the human race would diminish. You can't say that just because they're "software" it's OK to kill them.

[moater boat]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

People who have no formal training or education on issues of a social/anthropology/economic nature should really not ever talk about them. You can't bring up slavery without looking at Jim Crow and that only FORMALLY ended in 1965 and held out much longer in the private sector until the late 80's

Plus, you can't simultaneously absolve responsibility without restitution for the said benefit/consequence of those choices. You can't rape, pillage and steal for hundreds of years then wash your hands of the matter 100 yrs later as your decendents benefit from those choices. As i stated before, To absolve yourself of your decendents choices, you would have to also give back or pay restitution for that which you benefitted from.

Let's keep modern day politics out of the discussion so I don't have to absolutely destroy any silly liberal arguments.

[Olueq]

Cazlee wrote...

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so you killed millions of innocent people? The only reason the quarians were in that situation at the end was becaue gerrel wouldnt let the fleet fall back. Honestly, the stupidity of some people is astounding.

[sirisaacx]

moater boat wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

People who have no formal training or education on issues of a social/anthropology/economic nature should really not ever talk about them. You can't bring up slavery without looking at Jim Crow and that only FORMALLY ended in 1965 and held out much longer in the private sector until the late 80's

Plus, you can't simultaneously absolve responsibility without restitution for the said benefit/consequence of those choices. You can't rape, pillage and steal for hundreds of years then wash your hands of the matter 100 yrs later as your decendents benefit from those choices. As i stated before, To absolve yourself of your decendents choices, you would have to also give back or pay restitution for that which you benefitted from.

Let's keep modern day politics out of the discussion so I don't have to absolutely destroy any silly liberal arguments.

He is eloquent about his argument though, flawed or not.

Modifié par sirisaacx, 02 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[Legendaryred]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Every species in the galaxy that is biological and gains it greatest strength from being social, like humans, asari, salarians, krogan, ect (none of them are based on societies were the average person lives completely alone) evidence some forms of irrational thinking which are beneficial to organic survival. That's why my shepard can be a friend to members of the basic biological races, because friendship means something beyond reason. It may not be rational for my to risk myself to help a friend, especially if that friend caused there own problem and is likely to do it again, but biologicals do things like that all the time. Hell, fighting the reapers really isn't rational. But as you might notice, every biological race was pretty much committed to fighting the reapers to the end, outside of indoctrination. None said, okay, reap us last and we'll fight for you! The geth switch sides twice, because it makes sense, it's logical.

The Geth have no Churchills, and that's why they can't be trusted. The minute stabbing you in the back calculates as being +.0000000000001% advantage versus staying loyal, they'll do it. Sure, sometime organics can be illogically cruel. But they can also be illogically compassionate as well. I see no purpose in a race that can never be either ugly or beautiful.

The reapers are pretty ugly and have gruesom methods, also take EDI as an example, she is an individual AI that is fully self aware (something the Geth finally achieve in ME3) she finally comes to love joker and changes her code to give up functionality in order to save joker, doesn't that count as being beautiful? and what the reapers do as ugly? Therefore the argument that a fully individual AI will stay in a status quo is not true.

[Olueq]

Funkdrspot wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid.

This.

But NOT going by the ACTIONS of 2 or 3 Quarian leaders to throw their ships into a suicide run, cry to you for help, attack instead of retreat, nearly blow you up, then do the EXACT same thing AGAIN nearly 2 missions later isn't stupid?

It WASNT a suicide run. They were winning until the geth sided with the reapers. (you know, you ENEMIES) and evven then they would have retreated except for gerrel being an idiot. Also, the civilian fleet didnt want to fight and they were the vast majority.

[Funkdrspot]

Olueq wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so you killed millions of innocent people? The only reason the quarians were in that situation at the end was becaue gerrel wouldnt let the fleet fall back. Honestly, the stupidity of some people is astounding.

Pitty for them they chose such a war mongering leader. They could have chosen someone else. People can't absolve responsibility for the leaders they pick either.