350 réponses à ce sujet

[moater boat]

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

Geth are software, they were weapon testing on hardware. Even if it resulted in destruction of the software, it's not like the Geth can feel pain. The software could have been erased before hand, or not, it really doesn't matter.

Geth are fully self aware AI which is the closes you will find to a living creature, if they were just software the Quarians wouln't have freaked out 300 years ago, and the council wouln't have put restrictions on AI development after the Geth vs Quarian. Also the war in ME3 with the Geth began because the Quarians blew up a goddam base with hundreds of thousands of "software" as you call it. Legion states that what would Shepard feel if for each human the reapers killed the overall intelligence of the human race would diminish. You can't say that just because they're "software" it's OK to kill them.

My dog is self aware, that doesn't give it the same rights as a human, and yes, I can say that because they are software it is ok to "kill" them

[sirisaacx]

Olueq wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so you killed millions of innocent people? The only reason the quarians were in that situation at the end was becaue gerrel wouldnt let the fleet fall back. Honestly, the stupidity of some people is astounding.

Well the geth were innocents too, were they not?

[The Stabilo Boss]

What I found bizarre was that the Geth were portrayed as cute cuddly victims of the evil Quarians genocidal war... and yet, the Geth somehow reduced a population of billions of Quarians to just 17 million? It seems strange to me that they managed to do that in "self defence." I mean, to reduce the population of humans to that number, you'd have to kill a huge chunk of civilians, women, children, cancer patients etc.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I preferred the ME1 and 2 "both sides were in the wrong" way of presenting the Morning War.

[Sangheili_1337]

Both sides are pretty bad. We know what the Quarians done but lets not forget that the Quarian population was reduced from billions to just 17 million. That's over 99% killed. For that to happen, the Geth would have to systematically murder Quarians in a genocidal campaign. Only when the Quarians fled did they stop.

[Olueq]

Legendaryred wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid.

This.

Not one geth, bascially legion has 1 thousand and so programs. Also Legion represents the point of view of the geth who are not heretics, hence he is the only hardware unit to venture past the perseus veil.

Again, even that is going by his word. And even if that were true, how would that make a difference? He ONE geth platform. Theres NO reaon to trust him.

[sirisaacx]

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

Geth are software, they were weapon testing on hardware. Even if it resulted in destruction of the software, it's not like the Geth can feel pain. The software could have been erased before hand, or not, it really doesn't matter.

Geth are fully self aware AI which is the closes you will find to a living creature, if they were just software the Quarians wouln't have freaked out 300 years ago, and the council wouln't have put restrictions on AI development after the Geth vs Quarian. Also the war in ME3 with the Geth began because the Quarians blew up a goddam base with hundreds of thousands of "software" as you call it. Legion states that what would Shepard feel if for each human the reapers killed the overall intelligence of the human race would diminish. You can't say that just because they're "software" it's OK to kill them.

My dog is self aware, that doesn't give it the same rights as a human, and yes, I can say that because they are software it is ok to "kill" them

Eh, but your dogs intelligence isn't comparable to that of a human. Your argument is inherently flawed. If your dog were your intellectual equal he SHOULD have the same rights as you.

[Funkdrspot]

Olueq wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid.

This.

But NOT going by the ACTIONS of 2 or 3 Quarian leaders to throw their ships into a suicide run, cry to you for help, attack instead of retreat, nearly blow you up, then do the EXACT same thing AGAIN nearly 2 missions later isn't stupid?

It WASNT a suicide run. They were winning until the geth sided with the reapers. (you know, you ENEMIES) and evven then they would have retreated except for gerrel being an idiot. Also, the civilian fleet didnt want to fight and they were the vast majority.

It WAS a suicide run the second the geth decided not to be wiped out. They could have retreated and decided to be stupid. They could have retreated a SECOND time and decided to be stupid again and in some people's games they paid the price.

Lucky for them my Shepard is a MFing superhero paragon and verbally D-slapped Gerrel. I wish there was an option to invite him onto my ship a 2nd time so I could put a bullet in his brain.

[moater boat]

sirisaacx wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

People who have no formal training or education on issues of a social/anthropology/economic nature should really not ever talk about them. You can't bring up slavery without looking at Jim Crow and that only FORMALLY ended in 1965 and held out much longer in the private sector until the late 80's

Plus, you can't simultaneously absolve responsibility without restitution for the said benefit/consequence of those choices. You can't rape, pillage and steal for hundreds of years then wash your hands of the matter 100 yrs later as your decendents benefit from those choices. As i stated before, To absolve yourself of your decendents choices, you would have to also give back or pay restitution for that which you benefitted from.

Let's keep modern day politics out of the discussion so I don't have to absolutely destroy any silly liberal arguments.

He is eloquent about his argument though, flawed or not.

eloquent, concieted and wrong, a very dangerous combination.

[Legendaryred]

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

Geth are software, they were weapon testing on hardware. Even if it resulted in destruction of the software, it's not like the Geth can feel pain. The software could have been erased before hand, or not, it really doesn't matter.

Geth are fully self aware AI which is the closes you will find to a living creature, if they were just software the Quarians wouln't have freaked out 300 years ago, and the council wouln't have put restrictions on AI development after the Geth vs Quarian. Also the war in ME3 with the Geth began because the Quarians blew up a goddam base with hundreds of thousands of "software" as you call it. Legion states that what would Shepard feel if for each human the reapers killed the overall intelligence of the human race would diminish. You can't say that just because they're "software" it's OK to kill them.

My dog is self aware, that doesn't give it the same rights as a human, and yes, I can say that because they are software it is ok to "kill" them

Yet you don't have the right to kill your dog, at least not without consequences.

Modifié par Legendaryred, 02 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[Strategyking92]

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

[Olueq]

sirisaacx wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so you killed millions of innocent people? The only reason the quarians were in that situation at the end was becaue gerrel wouldnt let the fleet fall back. Honestly, the stupidity of some people is astounding.

Well the geth were innocents too, were they not?

Well

The geth killed million/billions of innocents during the morning war adn theya re still active after 300 years

They have no emotion and do not experience pain

geth can still be useful when deactivated as their technology still exists

they have proven time and time again that they can be manipulated and not just by reapers

they also have a bad habit of joining the reapers. whats to stop them from turning on you once thew reapers get the upper hand int he final fight?

[Olueq]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Morse wrote...

Bring Legion onto the Flotilla in ME2; the conversations the admirals have with Legion make them look like absolute smacktards for attacking Rannoch afterward.

No, it doesnt. Going by the word of ONE geth is stupid.

This.

But NOT going by the ACTIONS of 2 or 3 Quarian leaders to throw their ships into a suicide run, cry to you for help, attack instead of retreat, nearly blow you up, then do the EXACT same thing AGAIN nearly 2 missions later isn't stupid?

It WASNT a suicide run. They were winning until the geth sided with the reapers. (you know, you ENEMIES) and evven then they would have retreated except for gerrel being an idiot. Also, the civilian fleet didnt want to fight and they were the vast majority.

It WAS a suicide run the second the geth decided not to be wiped out. They could have retreated and decided to be stupid. They could have retreated a SECOND time and decided to be stupid again and in some people's games they paid the price.

Lucky for them my Shepard is a MFing superhero paragon and verbally D-slapped Gerrel. I wish there was an option to invite him onto my ship a 2nd time so I could put a bullet in his brain.

Did you even READ what I said?
They were winning so it WASNT a suicide run  until the geth sided with the reapers and even then they wanted to retreat but didnt because ONE person (gerrel) forced them to stay.
next time please read what I say before making yourelf look stupid.

Modifié par Olueq, 02 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[moater boat]

Legendaryred wrote...


Yet you don't have the right to kill your dog, at least not without consequences.

yes, actually I do. I could take him to vet and have him put down this very morning. I wouldn't, but I could.

[Legendaryred]

Strategyking92 wrote...

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.

[Funkdrspot]

moater boat wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

People who have no formal training or education on issues of a social/anthropology/economic nature should really not ever talk about them. You can't bring up slavery without looking at Jim Crow and that only FORMALLY ended in 1965 and held out much longer in the private sector until the late 80's

Plus, you can't simultaneously absolve responsibility without restitution for the said benefit/consequence of those choices. You can't rape, pillage and steal for hundreds of years then wash your hands of the matter 100 yrs later as your decendents benefit from those choices. As i stated before, To absolve yourself of your decendents choices, you would have to also give back or pay restitution for that which you benefitted from.

Let's keep modern day politics out of the discussion so I don't have to absolutely destroy any silly liberal arguments.

He is eloquent about his argument though, flawed or not.

eloquent, concieted and wrong, a very dangerous combination.

....Says the man that personifies concieted in his very first response. Besides, i never started it, only responded.

[sirisaacx]

Olueq wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so you killed millions of innocent people? The only reason the quarians were in that situation at the end was becaue gerrel wouldnt let the fleet fall back. Honestly, the stupidity of some people is astounding.

Well the geth were innocents too, were they not?

Well

The geth killed million/billions of innocents during the morning war adn theya re still active after 300 years

They have no emotion and do not experience pain

geth can still be useful when deactivated as their technology still exists

they have proven time and time again that they can be manipulated and not just by reapers

they also have a bad habit of joining the reapers. whats to stop them from turning on you once thew reapers get the upper hand int he final fight?

Aside from having no emotions, we as humans have:

Killed millions of innocents
Been manipulated to do terrible things
and joined terrible people.

And hey that was just during WW2!

So not having emotions doesn't really influence whether or not these things occur. Plus, Legion in his absence from the rest of the consensus has started to form his own personality and emotion. And it is hinted that all of the geth will when they achieve individuality.

Modifié par sirisaacx, 02 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[Legendaryred]

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...


Yet you don't have the right to kill your dog, at least not without consequences.

yes, actually I do. I could take him to vet and have him put down this very morning. I wouldn't, but I could.

Except that does not even make any sense regarding the actual debate of killing a fully self aware AI. Shepard could also take Legion to a vet and have him killed.

[Breakdown Boy]

I personally think about 50% of Quarians are idiots and jerks and the other 50% are reasonable good people. I guess like any race, but the difference is this, the good guys did nothing to stop the other 50% or did not do enough. A good example is Tali's aunt, what a fence sitter!

"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing."

[daftPirate]

Andsmth85 wrote...

Did finding out how the Quarians treated the Geth made anyone want to side with the Geth over the Quarians ? ( this of course only concerns those who couldnt save both ) , if it wasnt for Tali i would have definitely sided with the Geth , Legion's mission clearly showed that the Quarians were the ones who started the whole mess by unfairly killing the Geth.

They made it pretty clear what went on in ME2, ME3 just provided some visual clarification. That aside, Shepard's whole purpose in the conflict was the neutral party. Yes, the Geth were definitely the victims, who defended themselves, but as has been mentioned, the Quarians that caused the war are centuries dead, and there descendents have been left as the vagabonds of the galaxy. They are the victims of their ancestors' mistakes. If Shepard could only have taken sides, I'd have called him extremely weak, narrow minded, and unfit to lead any galactic coalition.

[Olueq]

Legendaryred wrote...

Strategyking92 wrote...

at the end of the day, mass effect 1 & 2 made me very unsympathetic towards the geth. I would have destroyed all of them with only just a slight guilt about it. However, if I were to let the geth destroy the quarians.....


No, that's not even a possibility. organics>VI's
(The geth were only clusters of VI's without reaper tech which turned them into AI's)

I don't remember the council passing laws forbidding the development of VIs, i remember them passing laws that forbid the development of AIs after the geth/quarian war.
The Geth were self aware AI by the end of the morning war, the reaper upgrades gave them individuality.

the law against AIs was in place BEFORE the morning war. More incentive for the quarians to shut them down once they became sentient.

[IntrepidDeath]

sirisaacx wrote...

It is hinted that Wrex is a particularly special case though. I mean talk to most Krogan, like the scientist in ME2 (not Okeer, the one on Tuchanka) or WREAV, and it's pretty clear war is priority number one by quite a large margin. But that wouldn't scare me on my own. It's their ludicrously high birth rate in addition to that that gives me pause.

Which the salarians have stymied twice. There's nothing saying they can't make a new genophage. But part of my point was that Wreav and Okeer, though possibly representative of current krogan, might not be representative of krogans as a species. I think, and the whole spiel during the ruins on Tuchanka supports, that krogans as a species aren't inherently as violent as Wreav, so much as he's a result of Tuchanka's destruction. If they didn't have Wrex and Eve as leaders, I would certainly be more concerned about the direction krogans would take after the genophage cure, but with them as mitigating factors I think it's reasonable that krogans in general would progress to become more reasonable as a whole, since I do not see them as being naturally as a people as violent as Wreav.

I mean, look at all the krogan you meet. There are the ones who are mercenaries, who you mostly just kill. There are the krogan on Tuchanka, who tend toward being warlike and even savage. Then, there are the non-mercenaries you encounter on planets aside from Tuchanka. These are all at least civil, and are commonly pleasant or entertaining to speak to. They write poetry. They dream of seeing the Presidium's reservoirs and its nonexistant fish. Hell, they're about as courteous as anyone else Shepard speaks to. The krogan Shepard meet vary depending on their social environment, and with the right leadership I would say it's reasonable to expect that krogan society could become something much more peaceful and akin to the other major races in the galaxy. And as long as that is a reasonable conclusion, I couldn't condone their genocide.

[moater boat]

sirisaacx wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

It happened over three hundred years ago. This would be like blaming white people currently living in America for slavery...

This is EXACTLY what I am going to say. You can't hold anyone responsible for the actions of others, even if those others looked the same, to do so would racist, and yes, I totally went there.

Yea, but remember the Quarians were performing live weapon tests on geth on ME2. Shepard himself say s"if it had been humans i would've told the alliance about it", for all their AI knowledge Quarians make generally stupid moronic choices.

Geth are software, they were weapon testing on hardware. Even if it resulted in destruction of the software, it's not like the Geth can feel pain. The software could have been erased before hand, or not, it really doesn't matter.

Geth are fully self aware AI which is the closes you will find to a living creature, if they were just software the Quarians wouln't have freaked out 300 years ago, and the council wouln't have put restrictions on AI development after the Geth vs Quarian. Also the war in ME3 with the Geth began because the Quarians blew up a goddam base with hundreds of thousands of "software" as you call it. Legion states that what would Shepard feel if for each human the reapers killed the overall intelligence of the human race would diminish. You can't say that just because they're "software" it's OK to kill them.

My dog is self aware, that doesn't give it the same rights as a human, and yes, I can say that because they are software it is ok to "kill" them

Eh, but your dogs intelligence isn't comparable to that of a human. Your argument is inherently flawed. If your dog were your intellectual equal he SHOULD have the same rights as you.

My argument is not flawed. The discussion was specifically regarding self awareness. My dog is self aware, self awareness alone should not guarantee equal rights.

Now if you wanted to say that there is a certain cutoff point in intelligence that defines where something has rights, that is a whole other matter that has its own set of problems. The computer I am using right now is, in many ways, smarter than me. That doesn't give it rights. Ergo there is something beyond both intelligence and self awareness that makes something a living creature deserving of rights.

[Olueq]

sirisaacx wrote...

Olueq wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

The quarians killed themselves and caused my geth friend and my quarian friend to commit suicide. **** quarians.

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so you killed millions of innocent people? The only reason the quarians were in that situation at the end was becaue gerrel wouldnt let the fleet fall back. Honestly, the stupidity of some people is astounding.

Well the geth were innocents too, were they not?

Well

The geth killed million/billions of innocents during the morning war adn theya re still active after 300 years

They have no emotion and do not experience pain

geth can still be useful when deactivated as their technology still exists

they have proven time and time again that they can be manipulated and not just by reapers

they also have a bad habit of joining the reapers. whats to stop them from turning on you once thew reapers get the upper hand int he final fight?

Aside from having no emotions, we as humans have:

Killed millions of innocents
Been manipulated to do terrible things
and joined terrible people.

And hey that was just during WW2!

So not having emotions doesn't really influence whether or not these things occur. Plus, Legion in his absence from the rest of the consensus has started to form his own personality and emotion. And it is hinted that all of the geth will when they achieve individuality.

This does not apply to the quarians because they died 300 year ago, this DOES apply to the geth because the ones responsible are STILL there. Please read next time.

[MysticSpace]

I am KROGAN wrote...

I sided with the Geth out of pure hate and rage over the stupid Quarian admiral who wouldn't F**KING LISTEN TO ME AND BACK THE F**K OFF.

Long story short, I punched him in the stomach and kicked him off my ship. Later I realized I couldn't broker peace between the 2 because that admiral is a ******.

Let Legion upload the code, Tali suicides

I raged for like 15 minutes after she killed herself. It's all that stupid admirals fault.

Edit: spelling

  What no you don't that F@#ker to broker peace I threw his ass of my ship too.  You need the peaceful admiral the one who crashed on Rannoch( save him on the mission not his men)

[Funkdrspot]

Olueq wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

It WAS a suicide run the second the geth decided not to be wiped out. They could have retreated and decided to be stupid. They could have retreated a SECOND time and decided to be stupid again and in some people's games they paid the price.

Lucky for them my Shepard is a MFing superhero paragon and verbally D-slapped Gerrel. I wish there was an option to invite him onto my ship a 2nd time so I could put a bullet in his brain.

Did you even READ what I said?
They were winning so it WASNT a suicide run  until the geth sided with the reapers and even then they wanted to retreat but didnt because ONE person (gerrel) forced them to stay.
next time please read what I say before making yourelf look stupid.

I read it and responded. The second the geth sided with the reapers it became suicide. They had the option to retreat when Shepard got on board and chose not to and decided they'd rather blow up the ship than secure the safety of their people. BECAUSE of that action, i was forced to save their civie fleet a SECOND time when the Geth launched a counter attack squadron which i disabled. Then they did it a 3rd time and were even warned that the reaper code was about to be uploaded.

The other admirals did not have to listen to that ONE person. Futhermore, the people of his fleet could have removed him as admiral if they felt compelled. They didn't.

0 pitty points awarded for cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Modifié par Funkdrspot, 02 avril 2012 - 07:01 .