350 réponses à ce sujet

[FirstCitizen800]

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Modifié par FirstCitizen800, 02 avril 2012 - 07:18 .

[Psythorn]

Legendaryred wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Olueq wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

Olueq wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

The ...

Not even one dissenting voice in the quarian fleet besides Tali, and despite her good intentions she was ineffective (as usual).

so...

Well the geth were innocents too, were they not?

Well
...

The geth do experience emotion...

Oh give me a break, Overlord prove they can be manipulated not to mention AI hacking in game.

I think his ...

I agree,...

Woooahhhh... Would you care about your quoting ?
This gives me headaches...


It's possible to edit these before posting you know... Remove some of the quoted qoute quote qoute quotes please....
Just pay attention that every quote that is opened is closed also and you will be fine...
Many thanks for keeping the thread readable

Modifié par Psythorn, 02 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[sirisaacx]

IntrepidDeath wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Digressing for a moment, there's a lot of fantastic points and great debate in this thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's of a much higher caliber than the average BSN topic.

I'm IntrepidDeath and this is my favorite thread on these boards. No, seriously, this is the only one I've been excited enough about to do anything other than make asinine comments in.

Yeah, I've been looking for a place to discuss the AMAZING dillemas that bioware has presented us with, and through this thread alone I've discovered entire new layers to these conflicts I hadn't even considered before. Its a shame the endings were terrible because I'm realizing how fantastically set up all of these conflicts were. 

[Olueq]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Olueq wrote...

It WAS a suicide run the second the geth decided not to be wiped out. They could have retreated and decided to be stupid. They could have retreated a SECOND time and decided to be stupid again and in some people's games they paid the price.

Lucky for them my Shepard is a MFing superhero paragon and verbally D-slapped Gerrel. I wish there was an option to invite him onto my ship a 2nd time so I could put a bullet in his brain.

Did you even READ what I said?
They were winning so it WASNT a suicide run  until the geth sided with the reapers and even then they wanted to retreat but didnt because ONE person (gerrel) forced them to stay.
next time please read what I say before making yourelf look stupid.

I read it and responded. The second the geth sided with the reapers it became suicide. They had the option to retreat when Shepard got on board and chose not to and decided they'd rather blow up the ship than secure the safety of their people. BECAUSE of that action, i was forced to save their civie fleet a SECOND time when the Geth launched a counter attack squadron which i disabled. Then they did it a 3rd time and were even warned that the reaper code was about to be uploaded.

The other admirals did not have to listen to that ONE person. Futhermore, the people of his fleet could have removed him as admiral if they felt compelled. They didn't.

0 pitty points awarded for cutting off your nose to spite your face.

No kidding but at that point it was too late for them to retreat. I also think you didnt actually listen to any of the dialogue on any of the rannoch mision (or you more liekly didnt comprehend the dialogue). Gerrel CLEARLY states that if he fights alone, his fleet will get detroyed which would then lead to the other flett falling as well. Shala rann even yells at him for forcing them to stay. How did you miss that? Gerrel forced them to stay and is the reason they were cut off and the reason shepard had to detroy the reaper. Again though, only gerrel wanted to stay so youa re saying millions of innocent deerve to die because of gerrel. really, please try PLAYING the game before you make yourself look even dumber.

U mad? Quit calling names like a child.

- It was too late for them to retreat BEFORE Shepard boarded the big geth cruiser. The plan was to evac the people when it was disabled.

- I listened to the dialogue. IIRC that dialogue was AFTER you land on Rannock and disable the AA guns and involved JUST his fleet being destroyed. Either way, the choice was penny wise and pound foolish. Save the heavy fleet while simultaneously putting the civies at risk? Stupid decision. He bluffed and she bit. If her fleet had pulled back, he would have too because he's a coward.

Lmao, you call me childish then say UMAD?

1. Yes, but that was AFTER they joined the reapers. It was not a suicide run until that point. That was WHY shepard was needed. The quarians were WINNING the war at first so they had no reason to think it would be a suicide mission. If they KNEW the geth were allied with the reapers they would not have attacked them.

2. No.......... thats while you are on the dreadnaught.

[Legendaryred]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Zaeed, Samara, Mordin, Miranda, can't recall others.

[sirisaacx]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Perhaps not but the Asari councilor did.

EDIT: Also what Legendaryred said.

Modifié par sirisaacx, 02 avril 2012 - 07:21 .

[moater boat]

sirisaacx wrote...

moater boat wrote...
My argument is not flawed. The discussion was specifically regarding self awareness. My dog is self aware, self awareness alone should not guarantee equal rights.

Now if you wanted to say that there is a certain cutoff point in intelligence that defines where something has rights, that is a whole other matter that has its own set of problems. The computer I am using right now is, in many ways, smarter than me. That doesn't give it rights. Ergo there is something beyond both intelligence and self awareness that makes something a living creature deserving of rights.

Hmm. What, in your opinion, makes that distinction, if not intelligence and self awareness? Perhaps it is both. My computer is intelligent, but not self aware. My dog is self aware but not intelligent. I think a reasonable quantity of both gives something the right to live.

Now we are getting to the meat of the matter! Is it just enough of this and enough of that? As soon as a computer realizes it is a computer is it alive? Greater minds than mine have wrestled with this question and there is no clear concensus, but since you asked, I will give you what I think. Empathy, it is not enough to be self aware, a creature must acknowledge, understand, and accept that others are self aware. It's thoughts must go beyond it's own self awareness and intelligence and take into account the self awareness and intelligence of others.

The Geth never show any signs of this. They give absolutely no indication that any of the other races are actually alive. To the Geth, the quarians and all other races are simply aspects of their environment that should be dealt with in whichever way is most benificial to themselves. The Quarians are a threat in the morning war?Slaughter them with extreme predjudice.The remaining Quarians flee, let them go. It is wrong to think that this was an act of mercy, mercy is a product of empathy, a quality Geth lack, they stopped chasing the Quarians simply because the immediate threat was gone. If anything, had the Geth followed them and wiped them out, it would have been better evidence of the Geth being alive.

For 300 years the Geth focused only on themselves, there was no effort made to learn about other sentient races, no effort made to try and achieve peace. Why? Because they can't empathise with others. They can't walk a mile in their shoes.

Then there is the fact that the Geth have a tendency to ally with the Reapers. Why? Because the calculations done in their processors determine that it is the best method for self preservation. The Geth only care about the effectiveness of the plan. Not once do they ask "Is this the RIGHT thing to do?" and the reason they never ask that is because they are incapable, because they lack empathy, because they are not living creatures.

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Like I said, smarter people than me still don't have a definitive answer.

[Psythorn]

Olueq wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Olueq wrote...

It WAS a suicide run the second the geth decided not to be wiped out. They could have retreated and decided to be stupid. They could have retreated a SECOND time and decided to be stupid again and in some people's games they paid the price.

Lucky for them my Shepard is a MFing superhero paragon and verbally D-slapped Gerrel. I wish there was an option to invite him onto my ship a 2nd time so I could put a bullet in his brain.

Did you even READ what I said?
They were winning so it WASNT a suicide run  until the geth sided with the reapers and even then they wanted to retreat but didnt because ONE person (gerrel) forced them to stay.
next time please read what I say before making yourelf look stupid.

I read it and responded. The second the geth sided with the reapers it became suicide. They had the option to retreat when Shepard got on board and chose not to and decided they'd rather blow up the ship than secure the safety of their people. BECAUSE of that action, i was forced to save their civie fleet a SECOND time when the Geth launched a counter attack squadron which i disabled. Then they did it a 3rd time and were even warned that the reaper code was about to be uploaded.

The other admirals did not have to listen to that ONE person. Futhermore, the people of his fleet could have removed him as admiral if they felt compelled. They didn't.

0 pitty points awarded for cutting off your nose to spite your face.

No kidding but at that point it was too late for them to retreat. I also think you didnt actually listen to any of the dialogue on any of the rannoch mision (or you more liekly didnt comprehend the dialogue). Gerrel CLEARLY states that if he fights alone, his fleet will get detroyed which would then lead to the other flett falling as well. Shala rann even yells at him for forcing them to stay. How did you miss that? Gerrel forced them to stay and is the reason they were cut off and the reason shepard had to detroy the reaper. Again though, only gerrel wanted to stay so youa re saying millions of innocent deerve to die because of gerrel. really, please try PLAYING the game before you make yourself look even dumber.

U mad? Quit calling names like a child.

- It was too late for them to retreat BEFORE Shepard boarded the big geth cruiser. The plan was to evac the people when it was disabled.

- I listened to the dialogue. IIRC that dialogue was AFTER you land on Rannock and disable the AA guns and involved JUST his fleet being destroyed. Either way, the choice was penny wise and pound foolish. Save the heavy fleet while simultaneously putting the civies at risk? Stupid decision. He bluffed and she bit. If her fleet had pulled back, he would have too because he's a coward.

Lmao, you call me childish then say UMAD?

1. Yes, but that was AFTER they joined the reapers. It was not a suicide run until that point. That was WHY shepard was needed. The quarians were WINNING the war at first so they had no reason to think it would be a suicide mission. If they KNEW the geth were allied with the reapers they would not have attacked them.

2. No.......... thats while you are on the dreadnaught.

And just because of the fun:
Would you please care about your quoting ?
This gives me headaches... It's bloating the thread... It's making it hard to read...


It's possible to edit these before posting you know... Remove some of the quoted qoute quote qoute quotes please....
Just pay attention that every quote that is opened is closed also and you will be fine...
Many thanks for keeping the thread readable

Modifié par Psythorn, 02 avril 2012 - 07:22 .

[IntrepidDeath]

sirisaacx wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Digressing for a moment, there's a lot of fantastic points and great debate in this thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's of a much higher caliber than the average BSN topic.

I'm IntrepidDeath and this is my favorite thread on these boards. No, seriously, this is the only one I've been excited enough about to do anything other than make asinine comments in.

Yeah, I've been looking for a place to discuss the AMAZING dillemas that bioware has presented us with, and through this thread alone I've discovered entire new layers to these conflicts I hadn't even considered before. Its a shame the endings were terrible because I'm realizing how fantastically set up all of these conflicts were. 

Indeed! With the way the endings played out, the krogan will all die out regardless, so I'll never know if the trust I placed in their better nature would have been rewarded or whether Shepard would have had to go to war yet again to put down a second krogan rebellion.

[FirstCitizen800]

Psythorn wrote...

blah64 wrote...

Not in the least. I'm just sorry the Quarians didn't suceed in the first place. It would have saved them alot of trouble. I don't believe AIs or synthetics are ever truly alive, hence destroying one is no more wrong than trashing your computer.

So this is a highly philisophical question:
If a AI or whatever would develop self-consciousness and free will - you would not consider it beeing truly alive ? Please do not take offence as this is a highly theoretical question - but would'nt that be a form of racism ?

No, I wouldn't consider it alive. It is obviously not a product of that mysterious spark of life which innervates all the organic races. Although, to be clear, that's not so much because I wouldn't according something entirely synthetic that had self-consciousness and free will as alive. It's just that I doubt I could be convinced that it did possess all those things, truly. Maybe, over time, I could come to accept it. But even still, there would be forms of life that I'd be inherently distrustful of. For instance, intelligent viruses have appeared in science-fiction as well. Despite the debate currently as to whether viruses are truly alive, if a intelligent virus suddenly started taking over humans or other animals and forcing them to work as host, it might be self-aware and posesses free-will...but it'd still need to be put down, with prejudice.

[D.I.Y_Death]

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

[THEUKPSYCHO]

The quarians actions towards the geth 300 years ago followed by there mockery of a judicial system I'm ME2 and constant need for me to get them out of trouble in ME3 ment their fate was sealed when the choice came up. Bye bye suit monkeys

[flub3]

moater boat wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

moater boat wrote...
My argument is not flawed. The discussion was specifically regarding self awareness. My dog is self aware, self awareness alone should not guarantee equal rights.

Now if you wanted to say that there is a certain cutoff point in intelligence that defines where something has rights, that is a whole other matter that has its own set of problems. The computer I am using right now is, in many ways, smarter than me. That doesn't give it rights. Ergo there is something beyond both intelligence and self awareness that makes something a living creature deserving of rights.

Hmm. What, in your opinion, makes that distinction, if not intelligence and self awareness? Perhaps it is both. My computer is intelligent, but not self aware. My dog is self aware but not intelligent. I think a reasonable quantity of both gives something the right to live.

Now we are getting to the meat of the matter! Is it just enough of this and enough of that? As soon as a computer realizes it is a computer is it alive? Greater minds than mine have wrestled with this question and there is no clear concensus, but since you asked, I will give you what I think. Empathy, it is not enough to be self aware, a creature must acknowledge, understand, and accept that others are self aware. It's thoughts must go beyond it's own self awareness and intelligence and take into account the self awareness and intelligence of others.

The Geth never show any signs of this. They give absolutely no indication that any of the other races are actually alive. To the Geth, the quarians and all other races are simply aspects of their environment that should be dealt with in whichever way is most benificial to themselves. The Quarians are a threat in the morning war?Slaughter them with extreme predjudice.The remaining Quarians flee, let them go. It is wrong to think that this was an act of mercy, mercy is a product of empathy, a quality Geth lack, they stopped chasing the Quarians simply because the immediate threat was gone. If anything, had the Geth followed them and wiped them out, it would have been better evidence of the Geth being alive.

For 300 years the Geth focused only on themselves, there was no effort made to learn about other sentient races, no effort made to try and achieve peace. Why? Because they can't empathise with others. They can't walk a mile in their shoes.

Then there is the fact that the Geth have a tendency to ally with the Reapers. Why? Because the calculations done in their processors determine that it is the best method for self preservation. The Geth only care about the effectiveness of the plan. Not once do they ask "Is this the RIGHT thing to do?" and the reason they never ask that is because they are incapable, because they lack empathy, because they are not living creatures.

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Like I said, smarter people than me still don't have a definitive answer.

Lacking empathy? I don't know, they seem to be sentimental at least. They remember the Quarians who died trying to save them, Legion has an odd obsession with Shepard, and the Geth Prime talks about honoring Legion's sacrifice. And, while doing it the Prime says "I am sorry." They seem to have some level of emotion that could be seen as empathy.

[sirisaacx]

moater boat wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

moater boat wrote...
My argument is not flawed. The discussion was specifically regarding self awareness. My dog is self aware, self awareness alone should not guarantee equal rights.

Now if you wanted to say that there is a certain cutoff point in intelligence that defines where something has rights, that is a whole other matter that has its own set of problems. The computer I am using right now is, in many ways, smarter than me. That doesn't give it rights. Ergo there is something beyond both intelligence and self awareness that makes something a living creature deserving of rights.

Hmm. What, in your opinion, makes that distinction, if not intelligence and self awareness? Perhaps it is both. My computer is intelligent, but not self aware. My dog is self aware but not intelligent. I think a reasonable quantity of both gives something the right to live.

Now we are getting to the meat of the matter! Is it just enough of this and enough of that? As soon as a computer realizes it is a computer is it alive? Greater minds than mine have wrestled with this question and there is no clear concensus, but since you asked, I will give you what I think. Empathy, it is not enough to be self aware, a creature must acknowledge, understand, and accept that others are self aware. It's thoughts must go beyond it's own self awareness and intelligence and take into account the self awareness and intelligence of others.

The Geth never show any signs of this. They give absolutely no indication that any of the other races are actually alive. To the Geth, the quarians and all other races are simply aspects of their environment that should be dealt with in whichever way is most benificial to themselves. The Quarians are a threat in the morning war?Slaughter them with extreme predjudice.The remaining Quarians flee, let them go. It is wrong to think that this was an act of mercy, mercy is a product of empathy, a quality Geth lack, they stopped chasing the Quarians simply because the immediate threat was gone. If anything, had the Geth followed them and wiped them out, it would have been better evidence of the Geth being alive.

For 300 years the Geth focused only on themselves, there was no effort made to learn about other sentient races, no effort made to try and achieve peace. Why? Because they can't empathise with others. They can't walk a mile in their shoes.

Then there is the fact that the Geth have a tendency to ally with the Reapers. Why? Because the calculations done in their processors determine that it is the best method for self preservation. The Geth only care about the effectiveness of the plan. Not once do they ask "Is this the RIGHT thing to do?" and the reason they never ask that is because they are incapable, because they lack empathy, because they are not living creatures.

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Like I said, smarter people than me still don't have a definitive answer.

Interesting, but I'd like to argue the counterpoint. I don't think Empathy has any bearing on being truly alive. A sociopath, for instance, lacks empathy, but he is still alive, no? I would say so. Our own evolutionary paths and societal norms teach us that empathy is an important part of life, but that would imply that life by definition, must be illogical, since empathy is so counter to cold logic. I disagree with this. I think that self awareness and intelligence alone are enough to be categorized as "alive" and that anything else just defines what type of life they are. 

However, as you said, there is no consensus, and neither of us can outthink the greatest minds humanity has to offer. Still interesting to speculate though!

[FirstCitizen800]

Legendaryred wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Zaeed, Samara, Mordin, Miranda, can't recall others.

Zaeed, true. I don't remember Samara, Mordin, or Miranda ever lying to you though, or withholding any information I'd deem important. (Maybe because any info they did keep back seem to be of the personal and the mission critical type.)

[OchreJelly]

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea that millions need to die, because somehow they deserve it based on what their ancestors and current leaders did.

Applying that logic to our own world (because it happens pretty much daily in large and small ways) would lead to incredibly frightening things. :|

[Olueq]

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

On my 1st playthrough I sided with the Geth, stupid Quarians got what was coming to them.

You are fine with killing millions of innocents? The civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Some people are really stupid it seems.

Modifié par Olueq, 02 avril 2012 - 07:29 .

[FirstCitizen800]

jreezy wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

I've seen Legion withhold information but never lie directly to Shepard.

I could be wrong, but I felt like he lied about what he was doing when I woke up out of the geth consensus and was surrounded by terminators...I mean, Geth. ;P

[sirisaacx]

IntrepidDeath wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

IntrepidDeath wrote...

sirisaacx wrote...

Digressing for a moment, there's a lot of fantastic points and great debate in this thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's of a much higher caliber than the average BSN topic.

I'm IntrepidDeath and this is my favorite thread on these boards. No, seriously, this is the only one I've been excited enough about to do anything other than make asinine comments in.

Yeah, I've been looking for a place to discuss the AMAZING dillemas that bioware has presented us with, and through this thread alone I've discovered entire new layers to these conflicts I hadn't even considered before. Its a shame the endings were terrible because I'm realizing how fantastically set up all of these conflicts were. 

Indeed! With the way the endings played out, the krogan will all die out regardless, so I'll never know if the trust I placed in their better nature would have been rewarded or whether Shepard would have had to go to war yet again to put down a second krogan rebellion.

In thinking about the ending though, it made me wonder. How could Bioware resolve the storylines and still keep the impartial slant they had going? I mean, one of my favorite things about ME was there was no definitive right answer. Unlike a movie, the ME series let you choose what you thought was right. Though I did feel incredibly emotionally cheated, I'm not sure I would have liked being given a definitive outcome either...

[sirisaacx]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Psythorn wrote...

blah64 wrote...

Not in the least. I'm just sorry the Quarians didn't suceed in the first place. It would have saved them alot of trouble. I don't believe AIs or synthetics are ever truly alive, hence destroying one is no more wrong than trashing your computer.

So this is a highly philisophical question:
If a AI or whatever would develop self-consciousness and free will - you would not consider it beeing truly alive ? Please do not take offence as this is a highly theoretical question - but would'nt that be a form of racism ?

No, I wouldn't consider it alive. It is obviously not a product of that mysterious spark of life which innervates all the organic races. Although, to be clear, that's not so much because I wouldn't according something entirely synthetic that had self-consciousness and free will as alive. It's just that I doubt I could be convinced that it did possess all those things, truly. Maybe, over time, I could come to accept it. But even still, there would be forms of life that I'd be inherently distrustful of. For instance, intelligent viruses have appeared in science-fiction as well. Despite the debate currently as to whether viruses are truly alive, if a intelligent virus suddenly started taking over humans or other animals and forcing them to work as host, it might be self-aware and posesses free-will...but it'd still need to be put down, with prejudice.

Well there is no mysterious spark of life as far as I know of. Just chemical reactions playing out in such a way as to create responses to stimuli. A sufficiently advanced machine is just a human.

[sirisaacx]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Zaeed, Samara, Mordin, Miranda, can't recall others.

Zaeed, true. I don't remember Samara, Mordin, or Miranda ever lying to you though, or withholding any information I'd deem important. (Maybe because any info they did keep back seem to be of the personal and the mission critical type.)

Mordin: didn't tell you he was altering the genophage at first. Said he was on a simple scouting mission.
Samara: Didn't tell you that Morrinth was her daughter.
Miranda: This one I'm hazy on.

[Wynne]

Andsmth85 wrote...

Did finding out how the Quarians treated the Geth made anyone want to side with the Geth over the Quarians ? ( this of course only concerns those who couldnt save both ) , if it wasnt for Tali i would have definitely sided with the Geth , Legion's mission clearly showed that the Quarians were the ones who started the whole mess by unfairly killing the Geth.

No, considering plenty of quarians tried to help the geth, like those who protested in the memory of the geth, not to mention Admiral Koris. Are you kidding? 

[Legendaryred]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

Zaeed, Samara, Mordin, Miranda, can't recall others.

Zaeed, true. I don't remember Samara, Mordin, or Miranda ever lying to you though, or withholding any information I'd deem important. (Maybe because any info they did keep back seem to be of the personal and the mission critical type.)

Samara withelds the info about the Ardyat Yakshi being her daughter. Mordin lies to you about his work on the genophage earlier in the game, Miranda wanted to put a control chip on your brain (which hunts her in ME3 and makes her apologize for it) also Kelly (though not a squadmate) reported to the illusive man everything about you.

[Legendaryred]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Question: Did any of your companions directly lie to you or intentionally withhold information with the intent to misled besides Legion?

I've seen Legion withhold information but never lie directly to Shepard.

I could be wrong, but I felt like he lied about what he was doing when I woke up out of the geth consensus and was surrounded by terminators...I mean, Geth. ;P

He did lied, but not to you, well he didn't trusted your squadmates, plus he gets a little mad because the quarians wouln't have allowed for geth to be saved.