319 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Yet, when you see how much EA spends on marketing (much more thant on actual development), a free DLC would be a better marketing strategy than a lot of things they have done...

And I think that what people fear is that a paying ending is the first step towards Capcom's strategy.

I don't have any issues with people who say that Bioware should release free DLC that alters the ending as a PR move. That might be a good business strategy for Bioware. Or it might not. I don't have a business degree or any work experience in either marketing or public relations, so I'll leave that debate to people who are a bit more informed in that area.

I do have an issue however with people who somehow think they deserve free DLC just because they didn't like the direction of the writing in the end game.

If Bioware releases DLC that alters the ending it has every right to charge for it. If the players are lucky Bioware will release free DLC in a PR move, but the players are not entitled to free DLC. If Bioware decides to charge for that DLC, the players are also not being slighted in any way.

Bioware are not entitled to their customers either:blush:

Where did I argue that they were?

It is up to the individual consumer to decide whether Bioware's games or DLC are worth purchasing.

But it is good business strategy to keep your fanbase happy. BioWare charging for a new ending DLC would be adding insult to injury considering the outrage over the current ending. So while it's true customers aren't technically "entitled" to free DLC, if BioWare really wanted goodwill with those customers who are dissattisfied, they'd not charge for it.

Perhaps. Maybe it is a good business strategy to release the DLC for free. Then again, maybe it isn't. It depends on the costs involved and how much of a loss Bioware or EA would be taking in exchange for the hope of ME3 and other DLC having better sales in the long run or DA3 getting more preorders. None of us knows for sure and even Bioware and EA, who have access to actual sales data, would be gambling a bit with free DLC.

If Bioware chose to charge for the DLC however, any player complaints over having to pay would be without substance. While getting free DLC might be an awesome PR move, the players themselves aren't entitled to it. They were sold a complete product that worked. DLC that alters the ending would be an extra, rather than a fix.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[SalsaDMA]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
You didn't even look at his picture, did you?

Also, please be reminded that license fees and branding costs associated with choosing expensive brand names over cheaper alternatives is not related to production costs, but just another form of marketing.

My company pays for higher end networking equipment in our core network over cheaper alternatives. We do not market we use this in our core systems so we are better! It is development costs. That is the same for software they want to use, or even who they want to hire for VAs. 

When marketing comes into this is when the advertise all these VA's commercials, ads everywhere and viral plans. That inflates the cost of marketing. To pay for equipment you need to use is the choice of the development team.

You misunderstand me.

What I was pointing at is stuff like using well known brands for voice acting (Mr. Sheen, Freddie Prince Jr., Seth Green... heck, practically most of their primary cast is voiced by what could be argued as being a 'brand' name) rather than unknown cheaper alternatives. Or when EA Sports pays license fees to get 'the right name' on their game, whereas the money could have been poured into more production assets that actually had an effect inside the game.

An example of the license thingie could be said to be the difference between football manager series and FIFA manager series. EA got the license fees, football manager got a moddable game that allows their customers to mod in the things they don't have license to. Which game do you think can allocate the larger part of resources towards production versus marketing? (and incidently, I myself prefer the FM series. I haven't touched either of the FIFA series with a barnpole for the last decade after it became obvious to me the series were degrading in gaming/fun quality with each installment, subjectively said, ofc.)

[Pallando]

Edit: Nevermind. 

Enchantment !

Modifié par Pallando, 02 avril 2012 - 06:22 .

[Kuari999]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

I had only minor issues with the DLC when I believed what they told us was true.... however the "DLC" is already on the disc and locked. So basically they lied about their reasons for the DLC.  That I have a HUGE issue with.  What happened to BioWare's integrity?

Javik was always partly on the disc and they explained why and it's purpose during the development stage.

Actually he's pretty much completely on disc.  You can unlock him with very little difference compared to if you actually buy him.  This goes against what they said.  Quit trying to defend this garbage.

He is on the disc because they required him to be part of the game when developing it. This has been explained. His mission howvever is downloaded. In fact ironically you would have more ground to stand on if he was not on the disc, actually "cut" from the content and sold to you. In reality he was not cut and sold back to you because he was not cut in the first place. He remained in place due to the development stage which required him there for design and development of the title including interactions, cinematics and such.

Do I need to find the quote that he wasn't worked on at all until the game was put out for certification and the core game was finished?  Do I really?  Or are you going to can the bull and zip it?  There is no defending this legitimately.  It all comes down to money.  Not extra resources being put into it, money.  And they have to lie to cover it up.  I'm sorry, but that's the fact of the matter.  You want to be in denial, be my damn guest.

Modifié par Kuari999, 02 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[SalsaDMA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

I had only minor issues with the DLC when I believed what they told us was true.... however the "DLC" is already on the disc and locked. So basically they lied about their reasons for the DLC.  That I have a HUGE issue with.  What happened to BioWare's integrity?

Javik was always partly on the disc and they explained why and it's purpose during the development stage.

Actually he's pretty much completely on disc.  You can unlock him with very little difference compared to if you actually buy him.  This goes against what they said.  Quit trying to defend this garbage.

He is on the disc because they required him to be part of the game when developing it. This has been explained. His mission howvever is downloaded. In fact ironically you would have more ground to stand on if he was not on the disc, actually "cut" from the content and sold to you. In reality he was not cut and sold back to you because he was not cut in the first place. He remained in place due to the development stage which required him there for design and development of the title including interactions, cinematics and such.

Nope. He didn't have to be part of the game. All that was required, actually, would be for the voice-acting scripts handed out to people to include the passages that contained references that were to be used with him. That's it.

Rest of the stuff could be patched in, but the stuff like voices needed to be pre-recorded anyway and thus could be defended to be put on the disc already even if the character wasn't finished.

Fact is, character WAS finished. The rest of the stuff in the DLC could very well be defended as not having been finished, but the character himself most certainly was.

Sorry but that is not true. I am pretty sure John would argue with you on this regarding the requirement of the character to be present when creating his cinematics for all interactions involving such characters. This has always been the case with companions. Shale was on the disc, Legion was on the disc and I believe Kasumi also was partially on the disc, Sebastion was on the disc and so was Javik. Unlike cameos which can be easily patched in and out, companions are almost always to my knowledge or always on the disc themselves. There are so many interactions and cinematics needed for them to be present that it is important to have him present on the disc during development. You are mistaken about just requiring audio.

The cinematics can be produced postrelease if needed. Getting their expensive voice-actors into a studio just to record a few lines that consists of the interaction with that character would be unfeasable, however.

[SalsaDMA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pallando wrote...

-snip-

I already explained where the cost comes in from CGI development costs have sky rocketed over the years, voice actors cost more now and bigger names are being used, staff and teams have got bigger and cost more, marketing has also increased in cost even the latest and best software now costs more in order to be more things. This is just to name few off top of my head plus production costs have increased.

Would that be the CGI targeted at the consoles that haven't improved in capabilities in almost a decade?

And voice actors being brand names is marketing. Don't fool yourself.

And you still blissfully ingore his picture.

[Mylia Stenetch]

SalsaDMA wrote...

You misunderstand me.

What I was pointing at is stuff like using well known brands for voice acting (Mr. Sheen, Freddie Prince Jr., Seth Green... heck, practically most of their primary cast is voiced by what could be argued as being a 'brand' name) rather than unknown cheaper alternatives. Or when EA Sports pays license fees to get 'the right name' on their game, whereas the money could have been poured into more production assets that actually had an effect inside the game.

An example of the license thingie could be said to be the difference between football manager series and FIFA manager series. EA got the license fees, football manager got a moddable game that allows their customers to mod in the things they don't have license to. Which game do you think can allocate the larger part of resources towards production versus marketing? (and incidently, I myself prefer the FM series. I haven't touched either of the FIFA series with a barnpole for the last decade after it became obvious to me the series were degrading in gaming/fun quality with each installment, subjectively said, ofc.)

Well that is a precariament that we live in now a days, where we want bigger, flashier and more impactful stuff. While marketing could be from Martin Sheen, and the FPJ, but we as fans (and audience etc) need to one-up the previous installment. That is the slippery slope, they could cut the costs by bringing in less know people, but people want bigger and better, or simply the best. 

I love when a movie of great quality is made for the cheap (District 9 this reminds me of). Still audience want more for them to be attracted to see it. It is a bit of marketing, but it is also demand for it.


I hope I did not mis-read that last time 

Modifié par Mylia Stenetch, 02 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

I had only minor issues with the DLC when I believed what they told us was true.... however the "DLC" is already on the disc and locked. So basically they lied about their reasons for the DLC.  That I have a HUGE issue with.  What happened to BioWare's integrity?

Javik was always partly on the disc and they explained why and it's purpose during the development stage.

Actually he's pretty much completely on disc.  You can unlock him with very little difference compared to if you actually buy him.  This goes against what they said.  Quit trying to defend this garbage.

He is on the disc because they required him to be part of the game when developing it. This has been explained. His mission howvever is downloaded. In fact ironically you would have more ground to stand on if he was not on the disc, actually "cut" from the content and sold to you. In reality he was not cut and sold back to you because he was not cut in the first place. He remained in place due to the development stage which required him there for design and development of the title including interactions, cinematics and such.

Do I need to find the quote that he wasn't worked on at all until the game was put out for certification and the core game was finished?  Do I really?  Or are you going to can the bull and zip it?

I do not care what he has said in the past, I said what is the case and always has been and provided examples.

You also do not get to tell me to zip it princess so don't even go there.

[SalsaDMA]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

I'm not even sure i'm sure of what we're arguing anymore...

my head hurts

But my own personal feelings are this, DLC is fine, I still enjoy BW games and dont feel shafted. Hell I even shelled out EXTRA for another From Ashes code for my PS3 version since for somereason I didn't get my N7 edition...

But thats besides the point, as a company EA/Bioware and every known company under the sun, will do what they can (within reason) to make a profit. I say within reason because if its outright stupid I will not purchase said game (Like Id id with Capcom and SF x T) But as of right now I'm still a loyal bioware fan, as I have yet to play a terrible game from them or even really a BAD one.

and I'm also optomistic in hoping that they provide me actual closure in the form of DLC (Free hopefully) but I will wait until they formally announce something before making assumptions

DLCs done right is great.

DLCS used to exploit your customers is not.

I think it cna be summed that easily actually

[Dragoonlordz]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pallando wrote...

-snip-

I already explained where the cost comes in from CGI development costs have sky rocketed over the years, voice actors cost more now and bigger names are being used, staff and teams have got bigger and cost more, marketing has also increased in cost even the latest and best software now costs more in order to be more things. This is just to name few off top of my head plus production costs have increased.

Would that be the CGI targeted at the consoles that haven't improved in capabilities in almost a decade?

And voice actors being brand names is marketing. Don't fool yourself.

And you still blissfully ingore his picture.

The cost of it's use went up not the quality of what produced. They are not the same thing. I also looked at his image thanks, in fact I have their latest financial reports on my desktop.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Kuari999]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

I had only minor issues with the DLC when I believed what they told us was true.... however the "DLC" is already on the disc and locked. So basically they lied about their reasons for the DLC.  That I have a HUGE issue with.  What happened to BioWare's integrity?

Javik was always partly on the disc and they explained why and it's purpose during the development stage.

Actually he's pretty much completely on disc.  You can unlock him with very little difference compared to if you actually buy him.  This goes against what they said.  Quit trying to defend this garbage.

He is on the disc because they required him to be part of the game when developing it. This has been explained. His mission howvever is downloaded. In fact ironically you would have more ground to stand on if he was not on the disc, actually "cut" from the content and sold to you. In reality he was not cut and sold back to you because he was not cut in the first place. He remained in place due to the development stage which required him there for design and development of the title including interactions, cinematics and such.

Do I need to find the quote that he wasn't worked on at all until the game was put out for certification and the core game was finished?  Do I really?  Or are you going to can the bull and zip it?

I do not care what he has said in the past, I said what is the case and always has been and provided examples.

You also do not get to tell me to zip it princess so don't even go there.

When what was said in the past was literally the only explanation they gave, yeah, you're basically trying to say they were lying then too which only furthers my point that BioWare is being COMPLETELY untrustworthy.  Even if they said something else later, how is one supposed to believe it?  If they can't stick to their story, that's a sure sign of PR bull.

[SalsaDMA]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

You misunderstand me.

What I was pointing at is stuff like using well known brands for voice acting (Mr. Sheen, Freddie Prince Jr., Seth Green... heck, practically most of their primary cast is voiced by what could be argued as being a 'brand' name) rather than unknown cheaper alternatives. Or when EA Sports pays license fees to get 'the right name' on their game, whereas the money could have been poured into more production assets that actually had an effect inside the game.

An example of the license thingie could be said to be the difference between football manager series and FIFA manager series. EA got the license fees, football manager got a moddable game that allows their customers to mod in the things they don't have license to. Which game do you think can allocate the larger part of resources towards production versus marketing? (and incidently, I myself prefer the FM series. I haven't touched either of the FIFA series with a barnpole for the last decade after it became obvious to me the series were degrading in gaming/fun quality with each installment, subjectively said, ofc.)

Well that is a precariament that we live in now a days, where we want bigger, flashier and more impactful stuff. While marketing could be from Martin Sheen, and the FPJ, but we as fans (and audience etc) need to one-up the previous installment. That is the slippery slope, they could cut the costs by bringing in less know people, but people want bigger and better, or simply the best. 

I love when a movie of great quality is made for the cheap (District 9 this reminds me of). Still audience want more for them to be attracted to see it. It is a bit of marketing, but it is also demand for it.


I hope I did not mis-read that last time 

Nope, and I guess I agree. On the district 9 thing as well

[Lensman86]

Way to go bioware! if this @#$@! joke with dlcs continue i wouldnt be suprised to see them selling games in parts... pay 50$ for the base game with 5h gameplay and 10$ for 1h gameplay dlcs, woohoo give me moar please i beg you... take my money and choke on it!

[Pallando]

nycmode75 wrote...

I think those are all valid examples (I've seen before), but what I meant to say was the game was never advertised on the box or in TV commercials that players would be given different satisfactory endings. (And rightfully so, I think if they did, then it would really set them up for future liability lol). Given that the quotes above were from key members of the production team, I think they were just doing the usual smoke blowing that teams do to pump up their games. Too bad they have to eat their own words lol but fortunately for them I don't think it sets them up for any potential liability ...

Bioware has learned a valuable lesson here. In the future, promise nothing but the most mundane experience possible!

If you only count TV commercials or boxes as advertisement, then sure. All they ever said was "Take Earth back !" with some random rail shooting or other action-packed trailer. You can't judge a game on its box and commercial. People usually read interviews which ARE advertisement. Not the same kind, but when the say something, it's to sell their product... So they can't be surprised when their product does not live up to the expectations they built up... 

[Dragoonlordz]

Kuari999 wrote...

When what was said in the past was literally the only explanation they gave, yeah, you're basically trying to say they were lying then too which only furthers my point that BioWare is being COMPLETELY untrustworthy.  Even if they said something else later, how is one supposed to believe it?  If they can't stick to their story, that's a sure sign of PR bull.

No, I am telling you I do not care what you have or think you have heard.

I am telling you how it has always been with companions relating to content on the discs and why then gave examples.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[Kuari999]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

When what was said in the past was literally the only explanation they gave, yeah, you're basically trying to say they were lying then too which only furthers my point that BioWare is being COMPLETELY untrustworthy.  Even if they said something else later, how is one supposed to believe it?  If they can't stick to their story, that's a sure sign of PR bull.

No, I am telling you I do not care what you have or think you have heard.

I am telling you how it has always been with companions relating to content on the discs and why then gave examples.

Kasumi all we had were a few voice files.  Shale wasn't much different.  In every other case you couldn't simply change one line of code and suddenly almost everything about them was unlocked.  So no, its not the same.

[Illtis89]

What gets me is that no one's mentioned the glitches and bugs yet.

Examples: Jumpy conversations (throughout the game), Incomplete models ( if you look below the citadel's dance club you can see incomplete models), near the very beginning (another conversation bug) shepard's face is looking away from liara as he is talking to her (I found it quite funny, but a bit irritating too), last one I remember is a lot of sounds throughout the game register late (voices, sound effects, etc).

What's my point you ask? I'm gearing towards completeness, and the fact that the game most obviously feels rushed. I would have been willing to wait 1-2 more months or longer for them to produce a better quality game over what we got.

[SalsaDMA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

 I have their latest financial reports on my desktop.

I see.... <_<

I can make my own assumptions about your reasons for posting like you do now. Thanks... I guess..

[nycmode75]

Pallando wrote...
 

If you only count TV commercials or boxes as advertisement, then sure. All they ever said was "Take Earth back !" with some random rail shooting or other action-packed trailer. You can't judge a game on its box and commercial. People usually read interviews which ARE advertisement. Not the same kind, but when the say something, it's to sell their product... So they can't be surprised when their product does not live up to the expectations they built up... 

They are fully guilty of that, at least based on what the production team said (which I'm sure they are all probably regretting).  Unfortunately, it's hard to pin them to the wall for what they say in interviews because it's not an official sales pitch per se.  Nonetheless, I think they probably went into the whole thing fully confident that they delivered a product that would satisfy consumers, which needless to say, was a big mistake on their part.  It's too bad because the whole furor over the ending reminds me of criticism that directors face when they put out a movie with a bad ending.  It's just simply too bad on all fronts, but I also totally understand the counterarguments about artistic integrity and putting out whatever they feel is right, regardless of how good or bad it will make the consumers feel (I'm talking about content, and not bugs - that's just bad).  If I were Bioware and I was making this game, I would have honestly treated this game like it was a Hollywood blockbuster and unfortunately in most cases with big-time films, they simply have to just give the audience what it wants - flashy/satisfying ending(s).  That's what mass appeal games like ME unfortuantely box themselves in.  Even for bad endings, I would want a bad ending to totally be as different (and satisfying in a different/evil way I suppose) than the good one.  What they should have realized is that they aren't in the business of making indie games/movies where you don't always walk away with the most satisfying of endings/options for consumers.

Oh well, at least I hope they fix the face import issue asap!

Modifié par nycmode75, 02 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[Dragoonlordz]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

 I have their latest financial reports on my desktop.

I see.... <_<

I can make my own assumptions about your reasons for posting like you do now. Thanks... I guess..

It is publicly available to download on their site. I downloaded it because someone tried to pull a fast one relating to sales data. He quoted a report without linking and made statements claimed was in their report. I went and downloaded the report itself to counter him.

[Mylia Stenetch]

SalsaDMA wrote...
Nope, and I guess I agree. On the district 9 thing as well

Also I forgot, there is an issue with it comes from the Distributor. Where you could have a small budget of let's say 5 million to hire all the people you want and have everything prepped. Once they go through approval your budget is up to 20 millions dollars for really nothing.

I know from what documentaries I watched it is a common event in Hollywood, so I would not be surprised it would bleed into other enteraintment industries.

[Dragoonlordz]

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

When what was said in the past was literally the only explanation they gave, yeah, you're basically trying to say they were lying then too which only furthers my point that BioWare is being COMPLETELY untrustworthy.  Even if they said something else later, how is one supposed to believe it?  If they can't stick to their story, that's a sure sign of PR bull.

No, I am telling you I do not care what you have or think you have heard.

I am telling you how it has always been with companions relating to content on the discs and why then gave examples.

Kasumi all we had were a few voice files.  Shale wasn't much different.  In every other case you couldn't simply change one line of code and suddenly almost everything about them was unlocked.  So no, its not the same.

Rather than bicker with you anymore I will just leave this here and you can go there argue with everyone else.

Much of Javik was not present on the disc compared to what I got when bought. It was also stated by Bioware that there was parts like models, animations and such on the disc "framework" for the purposes I already told you but you dismissed because you won't accept it no matter who says it. Not using a edit of code to unlock makes no difference to content being there regardless of if lock or unlock. I have actually yet to see even anywhere near the same amount of interactions/dialogue plus vast amounts more that is present in the download compared to editing code on disc when watched videos of people who claimed to have unlocked it vs what I know I had when downloaded. Either way I am done with this element of discussion because we wont apparently agree so time to agree to disagree.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[SalsaDMA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

 I have their latest financial reports on my desktop.

I see.... <_<

I can make my own assumptions about your reasons for posting like you do now. Thanks... I guess..

It is publicly available to download on their site. I downloaded it because someone tried to pull a fast one relating to sales data. He quoted a report without linking and made statements claimed was in their report. I went and downloaded the report itself to counter him.

Doesn't matter. Like you, I'm just going to asume things and ignore actual comments made by EA/Bioware representives as well as data I don't think correlates with my fantasyview of the world.

[Dragoonlordz]

Illtis89 wrote...

What gets me is that no one's mentioned the glitches and bugs yet.

Examples: Jumpy conversations (throughout the game), Incomplete models ( if you look below the citadel's dance club you can see incomplete models), near the very beginning (another conversation bug) shepard's face is looking away from liara as he is talking to her (I found it quite funny, but a bit irritating too), last one I remember is a lot of sounds throughout the game register late (voices, sound effects, etc).

What's my point you ask? I'm gearing towards completeness, and the fact that the game most obviously feels rushed. I would have been willing to wait 1-2 more months or longer for them to produce a better quality game over what we got.

I remember the Liara bug, it was in fact the only bug I got through entire game. Shepard and Liara chatting but heads rotating following the helper sphere. Neither of them actually looking at each other the entire conversation just following the sphere. But that was like said the only glitch/bug I got.

[Kuari999]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

When what was said in the past was literally the only explanation they gave, yeah, you're basically trying to say they were lying then too which only furthers my point that BioWare is being COMPLETELY untrustworthy.  Even if they said something else later, how is one supposed to believe it?  If they can't stick to their story, that's a sure sign of PR bull.

No, I am telling you I do not care what you have or think you have heard.

I am telling you how it has always been with companions relating to content on the discs and why then gave examples.

Kasumi all we had were a few voice files.  Shale wasn't much different.  In every other case you couldn't simply change one line of code and suddenly almost everything about them was unlocked.  So no, its not the same.

Rather than bicker with you anymore I will just leave this here and you can go there argue with everyone else.

Much of Javik was not present on the disc compared to what I got when bought. It was also stated by Bioware that there was parts like models, animations and such on the disc "framework" for the purposes I already told you but you dismissed because you won't accept it no matter who says it. Not using a edit of code to unlock makes no difference to content being there regardless of if lock or unlock. I have actually yet to see even anywhere near the same amount of interactions/dialogue plus vast amounts more that is present in the download compared to editing code on disc when watched videos of people who claimed to have unlocked it vs what I know I had when downloaded. Either way I am done with this element of discussion because we wont apparently agree so time to agree to disagree.

Considering you're spewing out garbage that is flat out wrong, yeah, there isn't going to be any agreement.  There has been plenty of proof over the years against almost every word you've said.  I'm not going to agree to something that is flat out WRONG.