282 réponses à ce sujet

[Ibn_Shisha]

Jeb231 wrote...

Tanis1983 wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...
A) there are at least seven endings from the top of my mind  and that's not counting the character swaps during the final cutscene.

A) There is one ending, that's it, a slight deviance doesn't change the raw content of the ending, there is only one with a few variations. How people can consider these to be different endings is beyond me.

Take a cup of water, add a drop of mud to it. Is it now a cup of mud? No, it's still a cup of water, now it just has a speck of convoluted crap in it ... the same can be said to each of these "wildly different" endings.

The reason you don't count "character swapping" during the final cutscene is the same reason that no one else does ... because it doesn't matter ... at all. And it certainly doesnt even come *close* to justifying it being called a different ending.

You take the ending scene for Assassin's Creed: Revelations .... you cut out Ezio's face and insert ... i dunno, Desmond's. Is the ending "different"? Not even in the most strained definition of the word. It's still the exact same ending, it just has someone else's face in it.

If you're at the stage in your understanding of things, that you would consider a character swap, and an explosion color variation to be meaningful differences between endings; then i dare to say you probably don't have enough of a grasp of this series to properly defend this pro-ender campaign you think you're adding some weight to.

Just my two credits...

I totally agree and I'm not saying I find the ending sufficient or even acceptable but multiple endings could easily be used as a bullet point on a game box without it being a blatant lie. It's fine to think and argue the end product isn't fit for purpose but right now the discussion revolves around extrapolations made out of ambiguous statements. Let's hear what exactly is the plan first then we can discuss if it is acceptable or get a refund. Game has been out for less than a month. I was stuck a werewolf in Skyrim for months.

If they had just said "multiple endings," that would be ambiguous, and they could reasonably defend the current situation.  I would still be upset, but they would at least have a case.

However, they also made less ambiguous statements like (bold emphasis added):

"...the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome.”
(Still on the website, btw)

"...radically different ending scenarios."
(Also still on website.  I have a red t-shirt, a blue t-shirt, and a green t-shirt.  They may technically be different colors, but they're all still t-shirts.  Not "radically different" from each other)

"How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…” 
(Well, we are all being forced into Starbrat's circular logic nightmare.)

“You'll get answers to everything." 
(Obviously no.)

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.” 
(My personal favorite.)

"...a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes".
We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".
Unless the IT is actually correct, then if this statement is true, they must consider the "Critical Mission Failure" screen an "ending."

"...it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.”
Uh huh.  Let me know when this hits shelves.

Not a lot of ambiguity there.

[Qutayba]

The thing is, though, that unlike a producer or editor, fans are not really in a position to "force" a writer or BioWare to do anything. "Artistic Integrity" is usually brought up in the context of censorship, and a fan outcry over the endings doesn't even have the vaguest connection to censorship. We're not trying to squelch their artistic voice, we're simply responding to their voice.

[MrFob]

And after the whole Chobot thread, here is yet another group, the opinion of which doesn't interest me in the slightest.
I really want to hear a comment from BW Edmonton, you know, the guy who actual made the game. By now, we have heard from pretty much everyone and their neighbor. It is enough IMO. What we need to know is how the devs themselves view this situation.

[BoogieBot]

dkear1 wrote...

More hiding behind the word "art" instead of admitting they wrote a horrible ending. Fess up, change it and move on already!

[vallix]

J.K. Rowling added this weird thing at the end of her book series called an epilogue, if they're going to go using Harry Potter as an example they should learn from it.

There was almost nothing left unexplained, it was the most complete book series I've personally ever read. Not to mention she frequently goes around answering questions from fans even today. The ending was not amazing, but she didn't manage to completely ruin her entire series with 1 chapter either.

Modifié par vallix, 03 avril 2012 - 04:05 .

[Woodstock-TC]

Bizantura wrote...

For inverstors there is no art just money. Bioware allied themselves with EA for the big bucks, they produce consumer products no art. So hiding behind art is just ridiculous.

yes. you can have non-commercial art and be happy. live with it that in 99% of the cases you wont have commercial success either.
But Art also manifest in commercial products during the design and production, Lets take cars as example.
When a designer would come to the board members stating "i dont care so much if the product is enjoyed or liked as i dont want my artistic integrity to get broken and our (design teams) view is at stake" (which is basically an indirect quote of BW statements) you´d get in heavy trouble. 
/maybe you remember the customer outrage with the BMW 7 E65 and its controversiall ending. Chris Bangle had to revert it in 2008.

from my vp the creative process and cooperation with the customer desires and expecation is much more comparable between manufacturing a car and the overall process with the video "art" than with movie-art.
The implication of a 2 hour movie just doesnt lasts. You consume it rather than use, or bond wiht it. The more you implicate the customer (time, choices, emotions, clans, even e-skills (ie shooter or tactical games)) the more you have to find the best functional compromise. (which in itself is also defined as ART btw (See Bauhaus))

Videogaming Genre is still quite new, and right now puffing-up about creating Art. It will eventually find its balance.

//on a side note: funny to watch gaming companies/staff/press emancipate about creating/reviewing art now instead plain ol´videogamey,
-> while not realizing that the players themself (some of ´em around videogamey for 25years now) refered as whiney & vocal group also changed  in the last ten years ie Generation X,Y(*) in power.. Engineers, Staff, decision makers and Execs throughout the industry rather than crying lolipops  (* ie digital natives) 

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 03 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[Jestina]

Video games and books...two different things. I expect to be following an authors tale in a book, not in a video game. Video games, a writer should just make the framework while I make the tale of my character.

[Jackal7713]

Qutayba wrote...

The thing is, though, that unlike a producer or editor, fans are not really in a position to "force" a writer or BioWare to do anything. "Artistic Integrity" is usually brought up in the context of censorship, and a fan outcry over the endings doesn't even have the vaguest connection to censorship. We're not trying to squelch their artistic voice, we're simply responding to their voice.

^This

If Bioware really wants to play the art card, then they should be ready (and willing) to have their "art" rejected by the people paying for it. When I paint a painting or take a photograph, I know people may or may not like it. If some say's "oh this could be better", I don't gather up all of my friends to say those that didn't like it are " a bunch of whiners".

I also don't clame my art is something it is not, inorder to get a paycheck.

Its seems Bioware is acting more "entitled" then their customers. They need to think on this fact.

[D.I.Y_Death]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Qutayba wrote...

The thing is, though, that unlike a producer or editor, fans are not really in a position to "force" a writer or BioWare to do anything. "Artistic Integrity" is usually brought up in the context of censorship, and a fan outcry over the endings doesn't even have the vaguest connection to censorship. We're not trying to squelch their artistic voice, we're simply responding to their voice.

^This

If Bioware really wants to play the art card, then they should be ready (and willing) to have their "art" rejected by the people paying for it. When I paint a painting or take a photograph, I know people may or may not like it. If some say's "oh this could be better", I don't gather up all of my friends to say those that didn't like it are " a bunch of whiners".

I also don't clame my art is something it is not, inorder to get a paycheck.

Its seems Bioware is acting more "entitled" then their customers. They need to think on this fact.

100% agreed. What really urks me about this situation is Bioware is being just as silly as the hardcore "retake" crowd. Is it too much to ask for Bioware to put the man pants on and start acting like a buisness? Even EA doesn't pull this kind of PR nightmare stunt. On the flip side is it too much to ask the retakers to cool it a bit? Insulting Cassey or whoever isn't helping the situation and is making the rest of us look bad, go be a child on Gamefaqs and leave the official forum to the emotionally mature.

That's my take on the situation but, hey what do I know. I'm just a lowly Mass Effect "core" fan.

[Everwarden]

Dreogan wrote...

JK Rowling is a damn good storyteller. To even compare Bioware's craft to Rowling is metaphorically spitting in her face.

That. I didn't like the last book as much as the ones that came before, but they really shouldn't even be compared. 

[Ibn_Shisha]

My response to the "art" line from another thread:

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

There is a big difference between art
created solely for self-expression and commercial art.  Commercial art
has to find a balance between artistic expression and consumer demand. 
This is especially true when the commercial artist makes a series of
statements regarding a critical aspect of the piece before its debut,
and follows up on none of them.  False advertising is not included in
artistic license or integrity.

An analogy.  Let's imagine Bioware
is getting a new office building.  They commission an artist to paint a
lobby mural of the Edmonton cityscape.  After meeting with the artist,
telling him their ideas, listening to ideas he has to make it his own
while still keeping it within the parameters they want, and finally
agreeing on price, they let him get to work.  Finally, the big day
comes.  The Bioware staff enters their new building, and what sight
greets them?  Not the cityscape mural they agreed upon and
WERE PROMISED.  Instead, they see various religious figures smeared
across the walls in what appears to be human excrement.  I seriously
doubt Dr. Muzyka, Casey, or anyone in Bioware would say, "Hey, this
isn't what we wanted, or what you told us we were getting, and we really
don't like it, but you're an artist, so even though we paid for
something else and got this instead, we have no right to complain, ask
you to fix it, or ask for our money back.  You may have lied to us about your
intentions for the piece, but you're an artist and we respect your
artistic expression and integrity."

[Roguekad]

RenascentAnt1 wrote...

The link: http://adage.com/art...-ending/233848/

The comment: 


"It's the difference between wanting the ending to be changed to be
something consistent with the narrative ... to something specific," he
said. "It changes their tone from concerned fans to a list of demands."

So the shift in the narrative that for majority of all three games was first person limited to either third person omnipitant/ limited (since we only saw Stargazer's POV for a small cut scene) was alright ause it was artistic?  Any creative writing student will tell you that's a poor device whih should be slowly aluded to through out the work. Like DA2 for instance. Varric narrating between charpters and DLC is a prime example on ow to do this well. Although I loved that it was Buzz Aldrin it was painful how poorly it was interwoven into the rest of the narration.

[Nobrandminda]

Catroi wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

Considering they are 110% clueless, JK rowling changed the end of Harry Potter, she was originally going to have Harry die, but fan response was very negative so she changed it before the release.

Too bad they didn't do a lick of research or even have any clue what they were talking about....

What he said.  Except for a couple of gamer news sites, they really aren't getting any traction with their "it's art, so we shouldn't have to change it" argument.  Especially in a day and age where games are changed post release all the time, and Bioware has already agreed to do just that to an as yet unknown extent.

[FlyingCow371]

I think changing the ending to be "something consistent with the narrative" would be sufficient for most people. However, it is a valid point that people will have different ideas about what counts as being consistent with the narrative. If they take a broad definition which includes closing up plotholes and having Shepard act mostly in character (in ways similar to the other 2 games and the previous 30 hours or so of ME3), many people will be happy.

They likely won't please everybody, but that's nowhere close to a good reason not to even try. A hypothetical fixed ending won't be everything to all people, but almost anything they do would be better than what we have now.

[ticklefist]

This thread still going... sheesh.

All I can say is if you have any complaints about Casey Hudson, Paul Barnett is just as guilty of all of them and then some.

[Axialbloom]

I am sick of idiots comparing games like this to novels. Were you able to make Harry Potter's choices for him?

[XTR3M3]

All these kinds of things are designed to do is deflect attention from the broken promised ending by blaming others or name calling. tell them they are wrong, we are entitled to our opinion and hold the line.

EAware can dig its heels in if it wants. they can fix or give us another optional ending if they want. whether or not we buy more "stuff" from them depends on which way they go....but here is the thing EAware...

your fanbase is not only not excited about your product, they feel cheated....
fanbases that feel cheated don't buy hoodies, shirts, posters, merchandise in general sold under the product's name/license....excited satisfied fanbases do. I wouldn't print/manufacture too much of any of that until you fix your broken promises. otherwise you will have some backstock.

[darkshadow136]

dkear1 wrote...

More hiding behind the word "art" instead of admitting they wrote a horrible ending. Fess up, change it and move on already!

Agreed the art defense was already debunked, you can go throughout history and point out where are was changed due to a patrons taste and not the artists, not to mention the ME series is a Commersial Interactive Product with artistic elements not Art as a whole. I also lost any respect for Mythic when they got bought out by EA. I still remember when I played DAOC and they got bought out they added to the areas of the game standing ad boards promoiting other EA games which killed all immersion into the DAOC world.

It seems anything EA touches they destroy.

[BatmanPWNS]

Too bad, ME3 ain't art and just a piece of entertainment so give us a better last mission Bioware.

[Fenrisfil]

I'm not sure there is any point listening to EA employee's "opinion" on the subject. 

Plus IMHO Mythic sucks.

[idunhavaname]

I didn't read Harry Potter but to my recollection of my HP obssesed friend, JK Rowling changed the ending so Harry survived.

[XTR3M3]

Fenrisfil wrote...

I'm not sure there is any point listening to EA employee's "opinion" on the subject. 

Plus IMHO Mythic sucks.

I sincerely doubt we will ever hear an EA employee's real opinion unless it is exactly in line with what their PR dept. wants. just the rumor of that guy working for BW releasing that scathing review of his work on ME3 and how it got hijacked by Casey had people talking about firing him. No one that wants to keep their jobs at EA will say a word if it agrees with us.

EDIT
besides, since when does mythic have the first clue about ME3 and how the ending kills the whole series? non-gaming sites like forbes even get it. they are following the age old political standard.....deny and deflect on someone else.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 03 avril 2012 - 03:47 .

[Beti88]

"No matter what it does, BioWare won't please everybody"

Wouldn't it be better to please 90% of your costumers than only 10%? Because 90% utterly, passionately hate the ending, myself included.

[leewells]

RenascentAnt1 wrote...

The link: http://adage.com/art...-ending/233848/

The comment: 

At a recent panel about video games as art, Paul Barnett, senior
creative director at BioWare Mythic, another one of EA's game
developers, was asked about the controversy.



"If computer games are art, than I fully endorse the author of the
artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," Mr.
Barnett said, according to a video posted on the site of tech-news
publication The Verge. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say,
"That is the end of Harry Potter.' I don't think she should be forced to
make another one," Mr. Barnett said.



Mr. Nichols said that what stood out for him was the response from the
Retake blogger about making sure BioWare "gets it right."



"It's the difference between wanting the ending to be changed to be
something consistent with the narrative ... to something specific," he
said. "It changes their tone from concerned fans to a list of demands."



No matter what it does, BioWare won't please everybody, Mr. Nichols
said, adding "I wonder if the "Retake Mass Effect' fans are prepared for
that or whether they will burn out their own cause."



Just for clarifications, Bioware Mythic is part of EA, and Muzyka is the Group General Manager: http://en.wikipedia....c_Entertainment

Just a few notes:  

Firstly, if Harry Potter's final scene was about aliens like ME3's ending was about space magic, there would be a lot of room for aguement.

Also, at the end of Harry Potter, there was CLOSURE as advertised by the author.  If the scene cut when Harry fell unconcious, again there would be room for arguement.

No one cared how the ending of the book came to be, what they cared about is the closure when the author advertises it. 

NOW WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT...

If you believe that there is closure in ME3's ending, then you are in agreement with the first bit: space magic, and if you are in disbelief of closure then you agree with the false advertising.

Pick your poision.

If Mrs Rawlings write another book, it would be happy and not much to say on its cannon... If you wrote another ME4, it would very... chaotic to say the least with a LOT of content that could be placed in it.

No, the two (ME3 and Harry Potter) do not compare in the least.

Modifié par leewells, 03 avril 2012 - 04:22 .