282 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulmoka531]

Solmanian wrote...

The harry potter ending sucked big time. There's also a big difference between changing your story before the book is published, which is a natural part of writing, and between changing your ending after the book is out. You don't see people republishing their books, "now a revised version, with a better ending!".It would've been better if they killed harry, only it might've traumatized the kids... But than again the ending of the narnia ending realy shocked me: "Yay! our parents died in a train accident!". I cant wait to see how they handle it in hollywood...

Bioware's very own "Deception" novel, would like to have a word with you.

[xsdob]

Also, I'm seeing the video games are not art crowd rear it's head here.

So I have to ask, since video games don't count because they rely on visual and audio effects as well as writing, do films qualify as art to you? because most of the world already sees them as art and they aren't any different than games.

Also, about interactivity, you have to turn the pages or move the cursor to read a book, you can't just not interact with it and expect to be able to read it. By your own definition books do not count as art because they involve participation by another person. And films, once made into home viewing formats such as television or streaming or dvd's require and allow interaction to view them, mostly using a mouse or remote control.

So books and films are not art, music has control mechanisms that allows interactivity from the listener so that also doesn't count, so all that's really left is traditional pre-renniscance art, statues and paintings and that's about it.

So all forms of media, by the thought process that an art form that requires audience participation and interaction to view, are not art. Funny, i thought people would be more embracing of the first art form that allows the viewers to be a part of it.

Oh well, I guess it's worth sacrificing video games getting the respect they deserve from people and setting artistic media back to the pre-radio era if it means getting the last 5 minutes of a fantastic and phenomenal game changed.

Modifié par xsdob, 02 avril 2012 - 07:18 .

[Dendio1]

No matter what it does, BioWare won't please everybody, Mr. Nichols
said, adding "I wonder if the "Retake Mass Effect' fans are prepared for
that or whether they will burn out their own cause."

I see the logic...now tell me why it felt like a punch in the gut:pinched:

Modifié par Dendio1, 02 avril 2012 - 07:18 .

[Zine2]

You can't argue that the ending is art and then backpedal that it's just a videogame when someone points out that the Catalyst is in fact Space Hitler reading Mein Kampf to you.

[Dendio1]

JulyAyon wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

"You can't please everyone, so let's settle for pleasing the absolute minimum amount of people!"

I don't get this argument.

I don't get Bioware.

good argument if you want your product to go down the drain including your business venture.  that argument is showing how much out of touch these people are with the real world.  resession is world wide the same. anyone with a little business sense and who values their paying customers is cringing at the arrogance of the above statement.

On the one hand pleasing the majority often means phoning it in on originality. On the other hand bioware has alot of explaning to do come pax

[Avernius]

Foulpancake wrote...

Considering they are 110% clueless, JK rowling changed the end of Harry Potter, she was originally going to have Harry die, but fan response was very negative so she changed it before the release.

Too bad they didn't do a lick of research or even have any clue what they were talking about....

[Greed1914]

xsdob wrote...

Also, I'm seeing the video games are not art crowd rear it's head here.

So I have to ask, since video games don't count because they rely on visual and audio effects as well as writing, do films qualify as art to you? because most of the world already sees them as art and they aren't any different than games.

Also, about interactivity, you have to turn the pages or move the cursor to read a book, you can't just not interact with it and expect to be able to read it. By your own definition books do not count as art because they involve participation by another person. And films, once made into home viewing formats such as television or streaming or dvd's require and allow interaction to view them, mostly using a mouse or remote control.

So books and films are not art, music has control mechanisms that allows interactivity from the listener so that also doesn't count, so all that's really left is traditional pre-renniscance art, statues and paintings and that's about it.

So all forms of media, by the thought process that an art form that requires audience participation and interaction to view, are not art. Funny, i thought people would be more embracing of the first art form that allows the viewers to be a part of it.

Oh well, I guess it's worth sacrificing video games getting the respect they deserve from people and setting artistic media back to the pre-radio era if it means getting the last 5 minutes of a fantastic and phenomenal game changed.

I'm not sure you quite understand what people have been saying.  Games are both art and product.  While they do involve massive amounts of creative input, they are also produced on a large scale by corporations. 

As for interactivity, nobody was saying that games were any more or less artistic based on interactivity.  About the only one making that argument would be Roger Ebert who doesn't see games as art precisely because they are interactive.

Also, flipping a page or plessing play on your remote is passive.  You press play and the story progresses in only one way.  You turn a page, same thing.  

[RenascentAnt1]

Mr. Nichols said that what stood out for him was the response from the
Retake blogger about making sure BioWare "gets it right."

"It's the difference between wanting the ending to be changed to be
something consistent with the narrative ... to something specific," he
said. "It changes their tone from concerned fans to a list of demands."


There's a fair bit of misreading on Nichols' part - the Retake movement is a coalition of people so there are various different opinions, not just 'a list of demands'.

[Dreogan]

xsdob wrote...
Also, flipping a page or plessing play on your remote is passive.  You press play and the story progresses in only one way.  You turn a page, same thing.  

Just poking in. Flipping a page, as in a novel, is deceptively active. You are just "consuming" a fictive work, but there's a lot going on in your head to make a novel "work."

Pressing a button to play, though, is very passive. Just tossing in the technicality before the guy flagged you for it.

[johnbonhamatron]

I believe in two simple tenets.

1/ Video games are art.

2/ Art can be changed.

See? It's simple to reconcile, if you really try.

[UrgentArchengel]

I feel like slapping somebody...real hard!

[Quotheraving]

Solmanian wrote...

You don't see people republishing their books, "now a revised version, with a better ending!".It would've been better if they killed harry, only it might've traumatized the kids... But than again the ending of the narnia ending realy shocked me: "Yay! our parents died in a train accident!". I cant wait to see how they handle it in hollywood...

Hmm it may not be the ending per-se but what about Mass Effect : Deception, a book that was rife with mistakes and errors.
Funnily enough Bioware is happy to change that: http://www.joystiq.c...es-in-future-e/

Now simple errors are one thing, but lack of Narrative consistency, poor plot devices and a break down of cause and effect are arguably much worse for a story, and story is the kind of 'Art' we are consuming in Mass Effect (albeit a story where our choices are supposed to have an effect, another failure of the ending).
So why is Artistic integrity evoked to pass off one way of ruining customer enjoyment of a story while another is fixed without any fuss? Could it be the money? Or the pride of people who thought they were being artistic?

Either way there is plenty of precedent for them to offer customers the option of revising the ending via dlc and the reasoning is clear, firstly there is future loss of sales to consider and secondly there is the desire to make a product that is really damn good rather than a shoddy knock off filed with plot holes.



Afterthought
Paul Barnett is obviously fine with releasing shoddy workmanship on the world and seems to have been rewarded and coddled close to Bioware's breast despite that, but I would hope others don't follow his advice.

Modifié par Quotheraving, 02 avril 2012 - 07:41 .

[Achire]

You can think of Paul Barnett as the David Silverman of Mythic Entertainment: a marketing person whose job it is to get people enthusiastic about a product. However Barnett was much, much better at his job than Silverman. The problem is that he also had a significantly weaker product to sell. This unfortunate combination has earned him a fair bit of ire from the Warhammer fanbase.

[DJBare]

What's with all the midnight BBC2 discussions?, 80% of Bioware's fan base came right out and said the product sucked(because of the ending), what's the problem?, they screwed up a product according to 80% of the fan base, you want to keep that fan base?, then consider satisfying your customers, it really is that simple.

Modifié par DJBare, 02 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[cyric085]

it just shows that most big devs nowadays are out of touch with reality.

video games are a totally different form of media art than movies, books ect.

comparing them just shows how desperate they are, trying to explain defend a rushed and medicore game with a AAA Budget. they are just lazy, some writers aswell as their whole PR Staff are incompetent.

seriously i have read fanfics and theorys about the ending, made by fans (aka amateurs or semi pros) that made more sense and had higher enterainment value.

shows that former glory means nothing if you don't listen to your fanbase, why they likes a specific series.

Modifié par cyric085, 02 avril 2012 - 07:42 .

[RenascentAnt1]

Quotheraving wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

You don't see people republishing their books, "now a revised version, with a better ending!".It would've been better if they killed harry, only it might've traumatized the kids... But than again the ending of the narnia ending realy shocked me: "Yay! our parents died in a train accident!". I cant wait to see how they handle it in hollywood...

Hmm it may not be the ending per-se but what about Mass Effect : Deception, a book that was rife with mistakes and errors.
Funnily enough Bioware is happy to change that: http://www.joystiq.c...es-in-future-e/

Now simple errors are one thing, but lack of Narrative consistency, poor plot devices and a break down of cause and effect are arguably much worse for a story, and story is the kind of 'Art' we are consuming in Mass Effect (albeit a story where our choices are supposed to have an effect, another failure of the ending).
So why is Artistic integrity evoked to pass off one way of ruining customer enjoyment of a story while another is fixed without any fuss? Could it be the money? Or the pride of people who thought they were being artistic?

Either way there is plenty of precedent for them to offer customers the option of revising the ending via dlc and the reasoning is clear, firstly there is future loss of sales to consider and secondly there is the desire to make a product that is really damn good rather than a shoddy knock off filed with plot holes.

Good point re Deception. Also, there is a glut of movie DVDs out there with the title "Director's Cut" emblazoned on them - movie edited as how the director wanted, not what the film studio want.

What I was also angry about was Muzyka's comment regarding Bioware will provide "clarifications" about the ending, as though the fans didn't "get it", and needs a Clifton's Notes dlc, when the actual complaints are about the quality of the game's ending.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Yeah, JK Rowling changed the ending of her novel based on fan outcry. These guys should really be less ignorant when making statements.

[Almostfaceman]

xsdob wrote...

Also, I'm seeing the video games are not art crowd rear it's head here.

So I have to ask, since video games don't count because they rely on visual and audio effects as well as writing, do films qualify as art to you? because most of the world already sees them as art and they aren't any different than games.

Also, about interactivity, you have to turn the pages or move the cursor to read a book, you can't just not interact with it and expect to be able to read it. By your own definition books do not count as art because they involve participation by another person. And films, once made into home viewing formats such as television or streaming or dvd's require and allow interaction to view them, mostly using a mouse or remote control.

So books and films are not art, music has control mechanisms that allows interactivity from the listener so that also doesn't count, so all that's really left is traditional pre-renniscance art, statues and paintings and that's about it.

So all forms of media, by the thought process that an art form that requires audience participation and interaction to view, are not art. Funny, i thought people would be more embracing of the first art form that allows the viewers to be a part of it.

Oh well, I guess it's worth sacrificing video games getting the respect they deserve from people and setting artistic media back to the pre-radio era if it means getting the last 5 minutes of a fantastic and phenomenal game changed.

"back to pre-radio era"

One does not fight melodrama with more melodrama.

The art question is moot. In the end, Mass Effect is a product. It has to sell to customers. If it doesn't, Bioware goes out of business. Simple. So, they either respond to their customers by giving them a product they want, or they fail and the customers go somewhere else, like Bethesda, who don't mind changing the ending of a game and admitting they didn't please their customers.

[Phyzzix]

Jawsomebob wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

JK Rowling is a damn good storyteller. To even compare Bioware's craft to Rowling is metaphorically spitting in her face.

J.K rowlings ending of harry potter was probably an 8/10 it was not perfect but it was good. Very good.

Biowares ending was probably a 4 out 10....

How do you figure it even gets 4? All I liked about the ending was literally the music... Maybe the music is worth 4 points but that's a stretch...

[Chuvvy]

Bioware Edmonton, Bioware Montreal, Bioware Austin, Bioware Mythic, they all work for bioware, and are all owned by EA. Taking this guys "opinion" for anything more than corporate horse**** is idiotic.

[noobcannon]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

Well... let's be fair. The writing in mass effect IS really good, with a couple of exceptions. If it was terrible, we wouldn't care about it so much.

[Wynne]

The Angry One wrote...

"You can't please everyone, so let's settle for pleasing the absolute minimum amount of people!"

I don't get this argument.

Nobody does.

xsdob wrote...

Also, I'm seeing the video games are not art crowd rear it's head here. 

So I have to ask, since video games don't count because they rely on visual and audio effects as well as writing, do films qualify as art to you? because most of the world already sees them as art and they aren't any different than games.

Also, about interactivity, you have to turn the pages or move the cursor to read a book, you can't just not interact with it and expect to be able to read it. By your own definition books do not count as art because they involve participation by another person. And films, once made into home viewing formats such as television or streaming or dvd's require and allow interaction to view them, mostly using a mouse or remote control. 

So books and films are not art, music has control mechanisms that allows interactivity from the listener so that also doesn't count, so all that's really left is traditional pre-renniscance art, statues and paintings and that's about it.

So all forms of media, by the thought process that an art form that requires audience participation and interaction to view, are not art. Funny, i thought people would be more embracing of the first art form that allows the viewers to be a part of it. 

Oh well, I guess it's worth sacrificing video games getting the respect they deserve from people and setting artistic media back to the pre-radio era if it means getting the last 5 minutes of a fantastic and phenomenal game changed.

Let me ask you this, then--has your favorite book series or film series ever asked/invited you to choose your protagonist?  To pick a skin color, eye color, hair style, gender, attitude, relationship, moral stance, choices that lead to outcomes as different as saving entire SPECIES? 

That is how you can know that your argument is baseless, thoughtless, and insulting. Yes, video games are art. No, that does not exempt them from giving their audience what they promise. If a developer makes promises it does not fulfill, which are part of the reason why their product is purchased, then that audience has a right to complain. When art is sold, it becomes a product, and consumers have a right to complain about false promises made in advertising. We have that right, period. 

[img]http://s9.postimage.org/mhn71nknj/abc.png]http://s9.postimage.org/mhn71nknj/abc.png[/img]

[Chuvvy]

Phyzzix wrote...

How do you figure it even gets 4? All I liked about the ending was literally the music... Maybe the music is worth 4 points but that's a stretch...

The Catalyst music is god tier, I hate that kid, but I love the music.