28 réponses à ce sujet

[Sinnerj117]

...would you consider destroying the Reapers to be the Paragon ending? Or, would you consider controlling the Reapers to be the paragon ending? I'm a little conflicted in this particular subject.

To add further need of a response, I'd like to add that I'm writing a fanfiction ending and am having trouble making an appropriate dialogue wheel.

Modifié par Sinnerj117, 02 avril 2012 - 07:29 .

[KittenKilla56]

IMHO I would have thought synthesis to be the paragon, but then again it all comes down to whether or not the reapers deserve to be respected as life at all. Since they are really puppets of star child who IMO deserves to die for its stupidity so maybe destruction is really paragon if it wasn't for fact that it would also kill all the Geth. Just plain stupid if you ask me. NVM the whole fact that the destruction of all the relays ensures everyone's dead anyway. The more I think about it, the worse the ending is. ugh...

[a.m.p]

The ambiguity of what's paragon and what's renegade is the only thing that I like about the endings. The morality system is a bit silly, but it works most of the time. But at the very end it really shouldn't be as simple as that.

Modifié par a.m.p, 02 avril 2012 - 07:38 .

[Ibecomedeath]

Paragon and Renegade were thrown out the window with the ending...

Control could be two fold - Paragon to save the galaxy from the threat - Renegade to gain control of the most destructive force in the galaxy..

Destroy could also be two fold - Paragon to save the galaxy - Renegade to simply destroy the Reapers at any cost...

I must admit, I did like the ambiguity... However, that was the only saving grace of the endings...

[Sinnerj117]

a.m.p wrote...

The ambiguity of what's paragon and what's renegade is the only thing that I like about the endings. The morality system is a bit silly, but it works most of the time. But at the very end it really shouldn't be as simple as that.

This is a part of my fanfiction in which the Catalyst "Opened it's eyes to the possibiliy of a peaceful future"

The Catalyst looks out toward the debris of the fallen Reaper and then back towards Shepard. “What do you choose? Will you destroy us? Are we to go back into the dark? Only you can decide our fate, human. Choose.”

At this point, Shepard has a big choice to make. The dialogue wheel appears on screen and gives you the following choices.

Paragon - Go. Never come back.

Renegade - I cannot let you live.

or

Paragon -  I cannot let you live.

Renegade - Go. Never come back.

You can clearly see why I'm conflicted.

Modifié par Sinnerj117, 02 avril 2012 - 07:44 .

[KittenKilla56]

Sure, it should be a moral dilemma. I have nothing against that. But they weren't really different choices, if they were we wouldn't be that upset. All endings lead you to a destroyed galaxy with no relays and you being dead, all that changes is whether 1.) Geth die, 2.) No one is destroyed, 3.) No one is destroyed but now we are all one species. This is my supposed moral dilemma.

[Sinnerj117]

KittenKilla56 wrote...

Sure, it should be a moral dilemma. I have nothing against that. But they weren't really different choices, if they were we wouldn't be that upset. All endings lead you to a destroyed galaxy with no relays and you being dead, all that changes is whether 1.) Geth die, 2.) No one is destroyed, 3.) No one is destroyed but now we are all one species. This is my supposed moral dilemma.

That and the obvious lack of closure didn't help.

[Mr.House]

Seeing as Destroy only kills the Reapers, destroy is the way to go. We never see the Geth or EDI die, Shepard survives so her implants still work and many people have reported EDI came out of the Normandy when they picked destroy. Destroy might not be "Paragon" but it's Shepard staying true to her goal and not contradicting herself.

[SmokePants]

Destroy kills all synthetics, which is pretty clearly Renegade. Synthesis isn't really either, because you're making a choice to fundamentally change everything in the galaxy without their consent. Control has to be the Paragon choice by process of elimination. I mean, it's blue.

Modifié par SmokePants, 02 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[a.m.p]

Sinnerj117 wrote...
This is a part of my fanfiction in which the Catalyst "Opened it's eyes to the possibiliy of a peaceful future"

The Catalyst looks out toward the debris of the fallen Reaper and then back towards Shepard. “What do you choose? Will you destroy us? Are we to go back into the dark? Only you can decide our fate, human. Choose.”

At this point, Shepard has a big choice to make. The dialogue wheel appears on screen and gives you the following choices.

Paragon - Go. Never come back.

Renegade - I cannot let you live.

or

Paragon -  I cannot let you live.

Renegade - Go. Never come back.

You can clearly see why I'm conflicted.

Then make it left and right and not top and bottom.

[Mr.House]

SmokePants wrote...

Destroy kills all synthetics, which is pretty clearly Renegade. Synthesis isn't really either, because you're making a choice to fundamentally change everything in the galaxy without their consent. Control has to be the Paragon. I mean, it's blue.

We never see the Geth or EDI die, Shepard can survive, despite the fact she needs her implants to live and EDI can walk out of the Normandy if you pick destroy. Starchild lied to you so you would not pick destroy.

Modifié par Mr.House, 02 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[ragecage559]

I don't think it's as easy as paragon or renegade as it should be easy as green, red, blue. The system as is, is broken and not worth debating.

[Spooky Wizards]

Mr.House wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Destroy kills all synthetics, which is pretty clearly Renegade. Synthesis isn't really either, because you're making a choice to fundamentally change everything in the galaxy without their consent. Control has to be the Paragon. I mean, it's blue.

We never see the Geth or EDI die, Shepard can survive, despite the fact she needs her implants to live and EDI can walk out of the Normandy if you pick destroy. Starchild lied to you so you would not pick destroy.

I didn't know that EDI could be one of the shown Normandy survivors...! Given that, plus Shepard's survival (which already had me thinking along these lines), I think he's less lying to you and more misdirecting you. His definition of 'synthetic life' is Reaper life. I think the fact that the geth have Reaper-based upgrades is what causes the anti-Reaper pulse to be lethal to them. This means, depending on the choices you've made, the number of geth that would actually die could be quite low. Does that make sense? The logic is sound based on the events of my Shepard's campaign and the ending I got, but I'm not sure it retains integrity for all possible permutations of the narrative.

Although, I had been thinking that the reason the Normandy was damaged by the blast was because, having EDI for a brain, it was a synthetic lifeform. Now that doesn't make sense... I really WANT to like the ending. But it's getting harder the more I try to make it make sense.

[TheSadMafioso91]

If you take the ending at face value, then I would say that Synthesis is the most paragon choice (co-existance and integration of two forms of life, no more conflict between the two, what's not to like?).

SmokePants wrote...

Control has to be the Paragon choice by process of elimination. I mean, it's blue.

If you agree with the indoctrination theory then Shepard is being tricked into thinking that control is paragon and destroy is renegade (hence the reverse colour coding). But it's pretty easy to see through this little trick if you think about it (The Illusive Man is an obvious renegade character and he wanted to control the Reapers, Anderson was an obvious paragon character and he wanted the Reapers destroyed). This scene is pretty clever in how it uses the morality system we think we know so well by now to try and trick us, if you agree with the indoctrination theory that is. Otherwise it's sort of a pointless choice anyway as the galaxy would be effed without the Mass Relays and with so many species stranded on Earth.

Modifié par TheSadMafioso91, 02 avril 2012 - 08:40 .

[Nu-Nu]

Destroying the reapers would be the paragon choice. The reapers haven't shown any good "humanity" traits or empathy or non-crazy intelligence, so destorying the reapers would be the paragon choice. But at the costs of wiping out the geth? That is quite a high price to pay, that I couldn't do it.

Taken at face value, without the IT theory, I would have to choose either synthesis or control. Choosing synthesis means I don't ever have to worry about reapers again, but you're playing god and making a choice without other consent. Choose control, and the reapers will be back in another 50,000 years. Will civillisation be back to a technology advancement in time to re-use the citadel and cruicible? With the geth still around, there might be a chance.

From an IT point of view, renegade is the only correct choice.

[SmokePants]

TheSadMafioso91 wrote...

If you take the ending at face value, then I would say that Synthesis is the most paragon choice (co-existance and integration of two forms of life, no more conflict between the two, what's not to like?).

SmokePants wrote...

Control has to be the Paragon choice by process of elimination. I mean, it's blue.

If you agree with the indoctrination theory then Shepard is being tricked into thinking that control is paragon and destroy is renegade (hence the reverse colour coding). But it's pretty easy to see through this little trick if you think about it (The Illusive Man is an obvious renegade character and he wanted to control the Reapers, Anderson was an obvious paragon character and he wanted the Reapers destroyed). This scene is pretty clever in how it uses the morality system we think we know so well by now to try and trick us, if you agree with the indoctrination theory that is. Otherwise it's sort of a pointless choice anyway as the galaxy would be effed without the Mass Relays and with so many species stranded on Earth.

I don't agree with the indoctrination theory. I think it's idiotic.

If he's trying to lie and trick me, then he could have come up with better lies and tricks. If he really didn't want me to choose destroy, then why show it as an option? Why not tell me that it kills everything? Tell me that it'll kill my LI or something. If he's lying and that's the best he could do to try and manipulate me, then he is a complete idiot.

Control was always the audacious choice. The Illusive Man, being indoctrinated and full of himself, believed he could accomplish it. The "good guys" didn't believe that it was possible. To them, control was just a deluded fantasy. But when that fantasy becomes reality, it is a valid choice.

As for the relays, they had to be destroyed because of what they represent thematically. The implication that fleets were stranded in Sol is probably going to be one of the things that gets addressed in the ending.

There's plenty of room to write around it. If the beam from the Citadel was traveling at the speed of light, then it would take between 4 and 7 hours to reach the relay. Plenty of time for FTL ships to get out of the system if BioWare wants to take advantage of it. The Control ending doesn't use a beam to set off the chain reaction -- it takes the slowly expanding blue field to reach the relay to begin the chain reaction and if that field was expanding at about 1/10 of c, then it would take days to reach the relay. It may be that the control ending is the only ending where everyone makes it home, who knows?

[Mr.House]

TheSadMafioso91 wrote...

If you take the ending at face value, then I would say that Synthesis is the most paragon choice (co-existance and integration of two forms of life, no more conflict between the two, what's not to like?).

The fact that you are getting rid of free will, diversity and you are pretty much saying everyone has to be the same so people can keep on living and become what everyone has been fighting against? That does not sound like Paragon at all.

[cmessaz]

Mr.House wrote...

TheSadMafioso91 wrote...

If you take the ending at face value, then I would say that Synthesis is the most paragon choice (co-existance and integration of two forms of life, no more conflict between the two, what's not to like?).

The fact that you are getting rid of free will, diversity and you are pretty much saying everyone has to be the same so people can keep on living and become what everyone has been fighting against? That does not sound like Paragon at all.

This.

[Visserian99]

Well when the options pretty much boil down to
A - Take control of the most powerful, evil and genocidal army of killer squids which I'm not entirely sure if I can control or be corrupted by.
B - Play God and merge the synthetic and organic life together without its permission, and remove the idea of strength through diversity
C - Commit Genocide

The idea of Paragon and Renegade has completely fled.

[ahandsomeshark]

I think bioware intended synthesis to be the paragon ending. Which is really creepy and super out of touch with all of ME1.

[ahandsomeshark]

As far as I can tell from the conversation with starchild, control and destroy only solve the immediate thread. Mass genocide of organics at the hands of synthetics is still expected to happen in the future.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...
The fact that you are getting rid of free will, diversity and you are pretty much saying everyone has to be the same so people can keep on living and become what everyone has been fighting against? That does not sound like Paragon at all.

That's not really true.

How do people not have free will after the transformation?  Of course, they had no choice to be transformed but that's not the same thing as "getting rid of free will".  In all endings, Shepard is making a choice for "life in the galaxy" so it's not all that different.

The diversity thing isn't necessarily correct either.

From what I understood, the essence of DNA would change somehow with space magic but just as there's still species diversity with carbon-based DNA life there could also be with this new whatever DNA.

That ending still sucks for other reasons, though.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 avril 2012 - 04:43 .

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
The fact that you are getting rid of free will, diversity and you are pretty much saying everyone has to be the same so people can keep on living and become what everyone has been fighting against? That does not sound like Paragon at all.

That's not really true.

How do people not have free will after the transformation?  Of course, they had no choice to be transformed but that's not the same thing as "getting rid of free will".

The diversity thing isn't necessarily correct either.

From what I understood, the essence of DNA would change somehow with space magic but just as there's still species diversity with carbon-based DNA life there could also be with this new whatever DNA.

That ending still sucks for other reasons, though.

Everyone is turned into a hybrid, everyone. What about the people who did not want it, what about the people who hate the very idea of it? You are taking away their free will just because some kid tells you there will be peace. There is no diversity at all in merge because EVERYONE is the same. Again, Shepard does this despite the fact this is one thing Shepard fought against in ME.

[nuculerman]

I chose synthesis as my pure paragon ending. I convinced myself that my Shepard was allowed to question Starchild and ascertain that rewriting everyone's DNA wouldn't change their free will in any meaningful way.

Destroy was just too much for my Shepard to swallow. He had worked so hard for Legion and the Geth. They had returned his favor tenfold, by attacking the Reapers on all fronts to help save human colonies and making life 100x better for Quarians on Rannoch. EDI was also fiercely loyal, and probably contributed more than anyone but Shepard to the success of every mission. Shepard had become her friend and convinced her to pursue her feelings with Joker.

So rationalizing synthesis was very easy. Every other choice required being personally responsible for the murder of close friends and their entire species.

[Holoe4]

I want them all to go: *boom* *crash* *kaang* *whoop whoop kraash* *pew pew pew shhhhhmmmmshk*