58 réponses à ce sujet

[ominioctonos]

50% more damage overall > 50% more damage on armor, seems a no brainer to me. or am I missing something?

[KroganSmash]

ominioctonos wrote...

50% more damage overall > 65% more damage on armor, seems a no brainer to me. or am I missing something?

Fixed. at least i think its 65% but still id picked 50% damage on everything.

[GeckoOBac]

I thought about that as well... Then I started doing gold runs... Really, anything that isn't armored besides phantoms doesn't really matter.

[ominioctonos]

KroganSmash wrote...

ominioctonos wrote...

50% more damage overall > 65% more damage on armor, seems a no brainer to me. or am I missing something?

Fixed. at least i think its 65% but still id picked 50% damage on everything.

my mistake. but it's still not worth it IMO

[SinerAthin]

I say go for the Armor.

Because you will always have more than enough firepower to deal with the lesser mobs.

but you want to drop those banshees/atlases even faster!

[MstrJedi Kyle]

Because you do more damage against the Banshee, Brute, Prime, Pyro, Atlas, and Ravager.

[KroganSmash]

Carnage is also not very viable on gold. At least in my expierence so i tended to shy away from it all together

[GodlessPaladin]

ominioctonos wrote...

50% more damage overall > 50% more damage on armor, seems a no brainer to me. or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure you're not missing anything.  Bioware's balancing of many ability choices in this game strike me as... highly questionable.

[golyoscsapagy]

I would wonder why would you even want to up carnage to lvl6...
The damage it does is pretty low, I found it most usable as a panic button because it staggers stuff awesomely.

[KroganSmash]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ominioctonos wrote...

50% more damage overall > 50% more damage on armor, seems a no brainer to me. or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure you're not missing anything.  Bioware's balancing of many ability choices in this game strike me as... highly questionable.

The ones for tech armor are a joke, but then again so is tech armor in general.

[Dashmundo]

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

[Zubi Fett]

Dashmundo wrote...

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

But are this power 50%/65% of damage on impact or the damage they riceive from other attacks after impact?

Depending which is it, it change the whole picture.

Modifié par Zubi Fett, 02 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[Atheosis]

KroganSmash wrote...

Carnage is also not very viable on gold. At least in my expierence so i tended to shy away from it all together

Carnage is fine on Gold (700 damage every 3-4 seconds that homes on targets is certainly not a bad thing).  What are you going to spend your points on instead?  Fortification?  LOL

[Dashmundo]

Zubi Fett wrote...

Dashmundo wrote...

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

But are this power 50%/65% of damage on impact or the damage they riceive from other attacks after impact?

Depending which is it, it change the whole picture.

I'm pretty sure it's damage on impact.

This, however, still doesn't change much, since armor repels pretty much 80-90% of a normal attack. This anti-armor power will have 65% of the attack points hitting the targets, as opposed to the normal 10-20%. If you raise that normal attack by 50%, it still only lets in 15-30% of the attack, which means it's far less effective.

Modifié par Dashmundo, 02 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[KroganSmash]

Atheosis wrote...

KroganSmash wrote...

Carnage is also not very viable on gold. At least in my expierence so i tended to shy away from it all together

Carnage is fine on Gold (700 damage every 3-4 seconds that homes on targets is certainly not a bad thing).  What are you going to spend your points on instead?  Fortification?  LOL

Nooo inferno grenades lol plus fortification aint half bad when you purge it to to go MMMRAAAHHHH'ing into your enemy.

[Noelemahc]

Banshees. Nuff said. Huge difference when you can kill one of them scary witches without resorting to the rocket launcher.

[Zubi Fett]

Dashmundo wrote...

Zubi Fett wrote...

Dashmundo wrote...

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

But are this power 50%/65% of damage on impact or the damage they riceive from other attacks after impact?

Depending which is it, it change the whole picture.

I'm pretty sure it's damage on impact.

This, however, still doesn't change much, since armor repels pretty much 80-90% of a normal attack. This anti-armor power will have 65% of the attack points hitting the targets, as opposed to the normal 10-20%. If you raise that normal attack by 50%, it still only lets in 15-30% of the attack, which means it's far less effective.

Didn't know about the armor ability to repel the damage(I thought it was only a "extra" health).

If so the case, i totally agree that the 65% of damage on armor wil be  more usefull for the same reasons Dashmundo says.

[Atheosis]

KroganSmash wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

KroganSmash wrote...

Carnage is also not very viable on gold. At least in my expierence so i tended to shy away from it all together

Carnage is fine on Gold (700 damage every 3-4 seconds that homes on targets is certainly not a bad thing).  What are you going to spend your points on instead?  Fortification?  LOL

Nooo inferno grenades lol plus fortification aint half bad when you purge it to to go MMMRAAAHHHH'ing into your enemy.

Carnage > Fortification on Gold, and it's not even close.  Seriously, purging Fortification and meleeing things on Gold just isn't healthy 90% of the time.  And obviously you must put points in Inferno Grenades.  To do otherwise would be insane.

[GodlessPaladin]

Dashmundo wrote...

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

15% isn't actually a lot in this case.  Unless there's some hidden difference in the mechanics, you are really overestimating how much of a difference +15% Carnage damage would do in taking down Banshees, Atlasses, or Primes... after their shields/barriers are already down.

Dashmundo wrote...
I'm pretty sure it's damage on impact.

This,
however, still doesn't change much, since armor repels pretty much
80-90% of a normal attack. This anti-armor power will have 65% of the
attack points hitting the targets, as opposed to the normal 10-20%. If
you raise that normal attack by 50%, it still only lets in 15-30% of the
attack, which means it's far less effective.

THIS would change things, though.  Can you confirm this?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 avril 2012 - 11:18 .

[Roninraver]

Dashmundo wrote...

Zubi Fett wrote...

Dashmundo wrote...

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

But are this power 50%/65% of damage on impact or the damage they riceive from other attacks after impact?

Depending which is it, it change the whole picture.

I'm pretty sure it's damage on impact.

This, however, still doesn't change much, since armor repels pretty much 80-90% of a normal attack. This anti-armor power will have 65% of the attack points hitting the targets, as opposed to the normal 10-20%. If you raise that normal attack by 50%, it still only lets in 15-30% of the attack, which means it's far less effective.

That isn't how armor works in this game.  Armor doesn't reduce damage by a percentage, it reduces it by a flat amount.

This is why most automatic weapons are so poor against armor, and single-shot weapons tear them up.


If I am remembering my game file values correctly (and I may not be, but the point remains valid even if the numbers aren't, I promise), a Brute has 50 points of armor damage reduction.

That doesn't mean it has 50% damage reduction, it means any incoming damage is reduced by 50, to a minimum damage of 5 per shot.


An Avenger losing 50 damage per shot is crippling, but a Carnifex losing 50 damage per shot still packs a whallop.


                                               *All numbers below here pulled from Hammerspace*


So, if your Carnage hits for a hypothetical 500 damage at base and you're choosing between the final evolutions, this is what your damage vs. that Brute with an armor value of 50 would look like.

At rank 5, with no final evolution chosen:  450dmg

At rank 6, Armor Penetration buff (+65%) evolution chosen:  775dmg

At rank 6, Universal damage buff (+50%) chosen:  700dmg


So, you can see that the difference vs. an armored target is minimal.

Every little bit helps, to be sure, but I personally feel that hitting that Brute for 75 extra damage with my Carnage is worth considerably less than thwacking just about everything else for an extra 200.

[Barneyk]

I don't get it either.
I would rather have 50% extra damage vs phantoms as well instead of 15% extra damage only against armored targets.

[ddewin1]

I think the math is a bit off on this. I don't think it is a straight 15% increase over 50% as the skill might suggest. The thing to consider is that armor has a damage reduction built in to it. This is where things get sticky. Damage to armor is calculated by taking the damage value and applying it to the damage modifier of armor. Now with that 65% increase to damage to armor it is unclear if this is applied to the base value of damage before the modifier is put into effect or if it is applied to the value derived from the base value modified by the armor reduction value.

To clarify, armor has a set damage reduction (at least with bullets).

When applied to the 50% bonus damage the total dmg increase value to armor is more like 40%.
When applied to the 65% bonus damage the total dmg increase value to armor is more 49% - 55% (depending on how the formula is worked out).

In the end the 65% is more beneficial than the 50% modifier because even on gold enemies without armor/shields/barriers are still quite easy to kill, while armored targets are much much harder to deal with and benefit more from the increased damage, especially since weapons are less effective on armor. This is of course all assuming the same modifier used by armor to calculate bullet damage is applied to skill damage as well.

[ddewin1]

Roninraver wrote...


                                               *All numbers below here pulled from Hammerspace*


So, if your Carnage hits for a hypothetical 500 damage at base and you're choosing between the final evolutions, this is what your damage vs. that Brute with an armor value of 50 would look like.

At rank 5, with no final evolution chosen:  450dmg

At rank 6, Armor Penetration buff (+65%) evolution chosen:  775dmg

At rank 6, Universal damage buff (+50%) chosen:  700dmg


So, you can see that the difference vs. an armored target is minimal.

Every little bit helps, to be sure, but I personally feel that hitting that Brute for 75 extra damage with my Carnage is worth considerably less than thwacking just about everything else for an extra 200.

You've helped clear up some confusion. So the modifiers are definately applied before the armor reduction plays in to the calculation?

[Zubi Fett]

Roninraver wrote...

Dashmundo wrote...

Zubi Fett wrote...

Dashmundo wrote...

Your teammates disagree. They really don't need you to blow up cannon fodder with carnage. That's what your gun/meleé is for. They DO want help getting rid of those big bad armor targets. So carnage those folk, and you'll tear through them.

It's all about teamwork. Your 50% damage doesn't increase your effectiveness against armor. However, your 65% increase against armor tears through all those targets people hate.

But are this power 50%/65% of damage on impact or the damage they riceive from other attacks after impact?

Depending which is it, it change the whole picture.

I'm pretty sure it's damage on impact.

This, however, still doesn't change much, since armor repels pretty much 80-90% of a normal attack. This anti-armor power will have 65% of the attack points hitting the targets, as opposed to the normal 10-20%. If you raise that normal attack by 50%, it still only lets in 15-30% of the attack, which means it's far less effective.

That isn't how armor works in this game.  Armor doesn't reduce damage by a percentage, it reduces it by a flat amount.

This is why most automatic weapons are so poor against armor, and single-shot weapons tear them up.


If I am remembering my game file values correctly (and I may not be, but the point remains valid even if the numbers aren't, I promise), a Brute has 50 points of armor damage reduction.

That doesn't mean it has 50% damage reduction, it means any incoming damage is reduced by 50, to a minimum damage of 5 per shot.


An Avenger losing 50 damage per shot is crippling, but a Carnifex losing 50 damage per shot still packs a whallop.


                                               *All numbers below here pulled from Hammerspace*


So, if your Carnage hits for a hypothetical 500 damage at base and you're choosing between the final evolutions, this is what your damage vs. that Brute with an armor value of 50 would look like.

At rank 5, with no final evolution chosen:  450dmg

At rank 6, Armor Penetration buff (+65%) evolution chosen:  775dmg

At rank 6, Universal damage buff (+50%) chosen:  700dmg


So, you can see that the difference vs. an armored target is minimal.

Every little bit helps, to be sure, but I personally feel that hitting that Brute for 75 extra damage with my Carnage is worth considerably less than thwacking just about everything else for an extra 200.

Very usefull data, thanks 

[Geakker]

I believe the last damage bonus adds to the other damage bonuses. It doesn't increase the actual damage output by 50%. The 65% armor bonus does.

I don't remember the actual numbers but for example:

Carnage does 200 basic damage.
At some point you get a 20% damage bonus. Thats 240 damage (200 basic + 40 bonus damage).
Later you decide.
1. Get 50% more bonus damage. That would be 340 damage (200 + 140 bonus damage or 200 + 70%).
2. Or deal 65% more damage to armored targets. That would be 396 (200 basic + 40 bonus damage = 240 + 65%).

At least I think thats the way it works. I would make a lot of sense. Not sure how the power damage bonus of the Alliance Training would add to the damage output though.