58 réponses à ce sujet

[Roninraver]

ddewin1 wrote...

I think the math is a bit off on this. I don't think it is a straight 15% increase over 50% as the skill might suggest. The thing to consider is that armor has a damage reduction built in to it. This is where things get sticky. Damage to armor is calculated by taking the damage value and applying it to the damage modifier of armor. Now with that 65% increase to damage to armor it is unclear if this is applied to the base value of damage before the modifier is put into effect or if it is applied to the value derived from the base value modified by the armor reduction value.

To clarify, armor has a set damage reduction (at least with bullets).

When applied to the 50% bonus damage the total dmg increase value to armor is more like 40%.
When applied to the 65% bonus damage the total dmg increase value to armor is more 49% - 55% (depending on how the formula is worked out).

In the end the 65% is more beneficial than the 50% modifier because even on gold enemies without armor/shields/barriers are still quite easy to kill, while armored targets are much much harder to deal with and benefit more from the increased damage, especially since weapons are less effective on armor. This is of course all assuming the same modifier used by armor to calculate bullet damage is applied to skill damage as well.

It is beneficial, but not as much as you might think.  See my post above for why.

Now, it may well be that for you personally, that little extra "OOMPH!" in taking down armored targets is worth the loss of damage to everything else.

For me personally, it isn't.  Mostly because my Krogan Soldier is tailored for a max damage/spammable Carnage build, so beefier Carnages against 90% of the enemies is more valuable to me than a small boost against the other 10%.


I always run with Incendiary ammo on my Graal.

That extra 200 damage (Hammerspace number) against the target I just shot is very often the difference between a Fire Explosion that ignites and whittles down everyone around his corpse, and a still living but heavily damaged target surrounded by friends that just watched me shoot their buddy!

[ddewin1]

Geakker wrote...

I believe the last damage bonus adds to the other damage bonuses. It doesn't increase the actual damage output by 50%. The 65% armor bonus does.

I don't remember the actual numbers but for example:

Carnage does 200 basic damage.
At some point you get a 20% damage bonus. Thats 240 damage (200 basic + 40 bonus damage).
Later you decide.
1. Get 50% more bonus damage. That would be 340 damage (200 + 140 bonus damage or 200 + 70%).
2. Or deal 65% more damage to armored targets. That would be 396 (200 basic + 40 bonus damage = 240 + 65%).

At least I think thats the way it works. I would make a lot of sense. Not sure how the power damage bonus of the Alliance Training would add to the damage output though.

Almost, don't forget to add in the armor reduction modifier of -50 damage. I'm just not quite sure where it fits into the equation.

[Someone With Mass]

Considering that roughly 50% of the Reaper enemies have armor, I'd say that it's not that bad.

[Incendax]

The problem with taking +65% Armor damage is that you are not getting +50% damage against Banshee Barriers, Marauder Shields, Atlas Shields, Phantom Barriers, Turret Shields, Engineer Shields, Centurion Shields, Nemesis Shields, Geth Prime Shields, Geth Pyro Shields, and Geth Hunter Shields.

It might be worth taking +65% Armor damage if you only fought Reapers, but we all know getting the Barriers down on a Banshee is the quickest way to make them start their walk of shame.

Modifié par Incendax, 02 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[CroGamer002]

I would go for damage on armor, since when they have only health I can use other powers instead.

Armor takes really long time to be taken down, so Vega fire that thing.

[ddewin1]

Roninraver wrote...

It is beneficial, but not as much as you might think.  See my post above for why.

Now, it may well be that for you personally, that little extra "OOMPH!" in taking down armored targets is worth the loss of damage to everything else.

For me personally, it isn't.  Mostly because my Krogan Soldier is tailored for a max damage/spammable Carnage build, so beefier Carnages against 90% of the enemies is more valuable to me than a small boost against the other 10%.


I always run with Incendiary ammo on my Graal.

That extra 200 damage (Hammerspace number) against the target I just shot is very often the difference between a Fire Explosion that ignites and whittles down everyone around his corpse, and a still living but heavily damaged target surrounded by friends that just watched me shoot their buddy!

I unfortunately saw your post after I posted my own  and you make a very solid arguement above. If you have a team that knows how to use you then what you say is probably going to be better than a slight damage increase against armored targets that should already have a much better solution than carnage.

[ddewin1]

Mesina2 wrote...

I would go for damage on armor, since when they have only health I can use other powers instead.

Armor takes really long time to be taken down, so Vega fire that thing.

I'd like to know what other powers you have besides carnage that actually reliably do damage....

Modifié par ddewin1, 02 avril 2012 - 12:19 .

[tvih]

That extra 15% to already pitiful damage is nothing to write home about. I'd rather be able to damage shields, barriers and health properly too. But Carnage as a whole feels lackluster a lot of the time.

[kotli]

Its worse than that its +50% or 65% of the base power damage (according to dev post in gameplay forum all +% power damage is added then applied to base damage value). Base damage of Carnage is 315 (according to wiki), so 50% is 157.5 and 65% is 204.75 so its only 47.25 points of damage difference between the two.

Here the reivent bit  from the post "So all upgrades go off of the BASE value (and the base value is
calculated before any passives, armor, weight capacity, etc stuff is accounted for)."

So no that +65% vs armour boost dont make you do 1.65*damage vs armour.

Modifié par kotli, 02 avril 2012 - 12:32 .

[CroGamer002]

ddewin1 wrote...

I'd like to know what other powers you have besides carnage that actually reliably do damage....

Crowd control powers.

[tvih]

kotli wrote...

Its worse than that its +50% or 65% of the base power damage (according to dev post in gameplay forum all +% power damage is added then applied to base damage value). Base damage of Carnage is 315 (according to wiki), so 50% is 157.5 and 65% is 204.75 so its only 47.25 points of damage difference between the two.

Here the reivent bit  from the post "So all upgrades go off of the BASE value (and the base value is
calculated before any passives, armor, weight capacity, etc stuff is accounted for)."

So no that +65% vs armour boost dont make you do 1.65*damage vs armour.

Exactly, which is also why many other upgrade options involving percentages are quite crappy. Like oh wow, 35% cooldown decrease! Oh wait, that's only 0,2 seconds off from 2,5 seconds... yay.

[Axialbloom]

Do you not use Carnage on the shields and barriers of armoured targets or something?

[Incendax]

Fully upgraded Carnage does 716 damage to everything, OR 763 vs Armor and 559 vs Everything Else. Let's run some numbers against a Gold Atlas.
Damage upgrade requires 29.5 uses to break shields and 31.7 uses to break armor. Total = 61.2
Armor Damage upgrade requires 37.7 uses to break shields and 29.6 uses to break armor. Total = 67.3

Modifié par Incendax, 02 avril 2012 - 01:00 .

[ddewin1]

Mesina2 wrote...

ddewin1 wrote...

I'd like to know what other powers you have besides carnage that actually reliably do damage....

Crowd control powers.

which of course classes with carnage are abundant in.

[Roninraver]

Oh you guys suck!  You're going to make me do real math this early in the morning?  



The thing about all this is, I'm assuming Carnage works the same way weapons do.  Which very well may be an erroneous assumption, but it's all I have to go by.


If it doesn't, disregard everything I've said, I'm playing the game with the wrong rule book.

However if it does, it should look something like this...


Actual Damage = BaseDmg * DmgMods * Damage Reduction value of Target


This is altered from the actual weapon damage formula in that there is no armor penetration mod for Carnage (like AP ammo) and it cannot score a headshot.


This is the formula I'm working with.  So using that, let's run the numbers with the following parameters.


I will be using a Krogan Soldier for these calculations. 

All damage mods in the Carnage tree are taken up until Rank 6 evolution.

All power damage increasing passives in the Krogan Berserker tree have been taken.

It appears that the damage reduction on a Brute is indeed 50 points. 


So, maths!  


Krogan Soldier Carnage damage with full passives and neither Rank 6 evolution against a Brute:

(315 * (1.775) * 1 - 50) = 509.125


Krogan Soldier Carnage damage with full passives and Rank 6 Universal Damage evolution against a Brute:

(315 * (2.275) * 1 - 50) =  666.625


Krogan Soldier Carnage damage with full passives and Rank 6 Armor Damage evolution against a Brute:

(315 * (2.425) * 1 - 50) = 713.875




So, the difference in damage done between choosing the Armor Damage evolution as opposed to the Universal Damage evolution is 47.25 damage!


Like I said, every little bit does indeed help against armored foes...

...but I would much, MUCH rather have 157.5 more damage against everything else instead!  

[Axialbloom]

Taking the armour damage seems ridiculously stupid and short-sighted.

[maxulic]

tvih wrote...

kotli wrote...

Its worse than that its +50% or 65% of the base power damage (according to dev post in gameplay forum all +% power damage is added then applied to base damage value). Base damage of Carnage is 315 (according to wiki), so 50% is 157.5 and 65% is 204.75 so its only 47.25 points of damage difference between the two.

Here the reivent bit  from the post "So all upgrades go off of the BASE value (and the base value is
calculated before any passives, armor, weight capacity, etc stuff is accounted for)."

So no that +65% vs armour boost dont make you do 1.65*damage vs armour.

Exactly, which is also why many other upgrade options involving percentages are quite crappy. Like oh wow, 35% cooldown decrease! Oh wait, that's only 0,2 seconds off from 2,5 seconds... yay.

At least you can see your "gain" in seconds in the Power window (and that's indeed the reason why I never choose cooldown).

Damage vs. armor is a little more illusive thus it can seem a good choice.

[Raddex]

It's better to go with the armor damage spec.

One bar of armor > One bar of health

[Incendax]

It's better to go with the armor damage spec.

Except when you do the math and find out otherwise.

Modifié par Incendax, 02 avril 2012 - 01:42 .

[Roninraver]

Raddex wrote...

It's better to go with the armor damage spec.

One bar of armor > One bar of health

Hey, you.


Yes, you.


Up there.  There's maths.  From like four different people.

It's really, probably not worth it.  Unless 47.25 extra damage against armored targets is very important to you.



Oh, and if those armored targets have some other layer of protection on top of it (Banshee and Barrier, Atlas and Shield) the +50% Universal Damage evolution will kill the target faster, all other things being equal.

[Axialbloom]

Raddex wrote...

It's better to go with the armor damage spec.

One bar of armor > One bar of health

lolbad

[ominioctonos]

carnage is the highest damage power in the game, why wouldnt I level it to level 6. my carnage does about 1100 damage with amplifier III and fortification on, and it's on 3 seconds cooldown

[ddewin1]

ominioctonos wrote...

carnage is the highest damage power in the game, why wouldnt I level it to level 6. my carnage does about 1100 damage with amplifier III and fortification on, and it's on 3 seconds cooldown

I'm pretty sure I've seen other skills do that or more, without amps and similar or shorter cooldowns.

[Tenkawa]

Carnage is what you use inferno ammo with. You light them on fire then carnage them for a nice boom.

[Highlord Heian]

Because what, that doesn't have armor, usually takes Carnage and is still walking around with a face?