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Black Widow vs Javelin on Gold: A Mathematical Experiment


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#1
ZeroDivision

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Notes before we start:
1 - This is, as stated in the title, concerning Gold level difficulty.  Silver and Bronze are a completely different story.
2 - Snipers in Gold should not be shooting for the little targets (soldiers, cannibals, etc..) after wave 2 as there will be much more important targets to take down and your ever-present Engineers, Vanguards, Adepts, and Sentinels are much more efficient at killing the little guys with their high-damage AoE powers and combos.
3 - This is assuming that the individual using the guns is capable of getting past the 0.25 second delay on the Javelin and doesn't require 3 attempts to actually hit a target.  If you miss 1-2 of your Black Widow shots and can't adjust to the 0.25 second delay you probably shouldn't be using either gun.

For the sake of time, simplicity of the math, and the fact that cloak is the only common demoninator between all infiltrators I will only be using reload-canceling and cloak-damage-enhancements as variables outside the guns themselves. This experiment will feature flat DPS calculations, TtK on an Atlas, and TtK on a Geth Hunter as well as damage lost through shield-gating and armor reduction and damage lost through overkill. The Atlas and Geth Hunter were chosen because the health/armor/shield values are readily available to all through the multiplayer balance thread.  Both guns will be assumed at rank 1. Headshot multipliers (used on the Geth Hunter) will be assumed at a 2.5 multiplier as posted by an individual in this thread. Cloak damage multipliers will be assumed 2.3 (1.0+0.5+0.4+0.4) based on taking the additional sniper rifle damage point from cloak. Reload-cancel-times and average times in between shots will be using Specter, I hope he doesn't mind, as the base for the Black Widow, and my team's sniper as the base for the Javelin. Given the wide-spread availability of spare thermal clips and the ease-of-access to ammo crates on most levels we will assume that ammo isn't a problem. It is important to note that both the Javelin and the Black Widow have the same number of spare reloads even though the Black Widow has a higher actual ammo count.

Now, on to the basic DPS calculations.

Black Widow: 
Damage per Shot - 514.1 
Cloak Damage per Shot - 1182.43 (514.1 * 2.3) 
Time Inbetween Shots - 1.15 (based on Specter)  (0.15 to aim + 1.0 for RoF)
Reload Time - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Total Iteration - 3.6 ((3 * 0.15) + (2 * 1.0) + 1.15) 
Total Iterations per Minute - 16.6667 (60 / 3.6) 
Total Damage per Iteration - 3547.29 (1182.43 * 3) 
Total Damage in a Minute - 59121.6182 (3547.29 * 16.6667) 
Optimum Damage per Second - 985.3603 (59121.6182 / 60) 

Javelin: 
Damage per shot - 1030.5 
Cloak Damage per Shot - 2370.15 (1030.5 * 2.3) 
Time Before Shots - 0.36 (based on our sniper) 
Reload Time - 1.18 (based on our sniper) 
Time Inbetween Shots - 1.54 (1.18 + 0.36) 
Total Iteration - 3.08 (1.54 * 2) 
Total Iterations per Minute - 19.4805 (60 / 3.08) 
Total Damager per Iteration - 3400.65 (1030.5 + 2370.15) 
Total Damage per Minute - 66246.3623 (3400.65 * 19.4805) 
Optimum Damage per Second - 1104.106 (66246.3623 / 60) 

In a perfect situation the Javelin wins the DPS race by 118.4757 or 10.7304%. Obviously this perfect situation is extremely unlikely to ever actually occur, so lets compare these guns against the aforementioned mobs.


Lets start with the Geth Hunter:

For the sake of consistency lets assume that every shot is a headshot.

Health - 2025 
Shields - 2278 

Black Widow: 
Headshot Damage - 2956.075 (1182.43 * 2.5) 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 678.075 (2956.075 - 2287) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 931.075 (2956.075 - 2025) 
Total Damage Lost - 1609.15 
Time to Kill - 1.3 (2 * 0.15 + 1.15) 

Javelin: 
First Headshot Damage - 5935.375 (2370.15 * 2.5) 
Second Headshot Damage - 2576.25 (1030.5 * 2.5) 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 3647.375 (5935.375 - 2278) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 551.25 (2576.25 - 2025) 
Total Damage Lost - 4198.625 (3647.375 + 551.25) 
Time to Kill - 1.9 (0.36 + 1.54) 

Quite obviously the Black Widow is far more efficient at killing smaller mobs. It kills a Geth Hunter 31.5789% faster with 61.6744% less damage lost to the shield-gate and overkill while still having a round in the breach for a third shot on a different target.


Next lets compare against the Atlas:

For the sake of consistency we'll assume that every shot is to the main cockpit and thus does normal damage.

Armor - 21094 
Shields - 21094 

Black Widow: 
Damage to Armor - 1132.43 (1182.43 - 50) 
Total Damage to Armor per Iteration - 3397.29 (1132.43 * 3) 
Iterations to Drop Shields - 5.9465 (21094 / 3547.29) 
Iterations to Drop Armor - 6.209 (21094 / 3397.29) 
Shot that Drops Shields - 3 (3 * 0.9456) *rounded 
Shot that Drops Armor - 1 (3 * 0.209) *rounded 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 189.78 (3547.29 - (3547.29 * 0.9465)) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 710.1046 ((0.209 / (1 / 3)) * 1132.43) 
Damage Lost to Armor - 931.35 (6.209 * (50 * 3)) 
Total Damage Lost - 1832.2346 (189.78 + 710.1046 + 931.35) 
Time to Kill - 43.7599 (((5.9465 * 60) / 16.6667 ) + ((6.209 * 60) / 16.6667)) 

Javelin: 
First Shot Damage to Armor - 2320.15 (2370.15 - 50) 
Second Shot Damage to Armor - 980.5 (1030.5 - 50) 
Total Damage to Armor per Iteration - 3300.65 (2320.15 + 980.5) 
Iterations to Drop Shields - 6.2029 (21094 / 3400.65) 
Iterations to Drop Armor - 6.3908 (21094 / 3300.65) 
Shot that Drops Shields - 1 ((1 - 0.2029) < (2370.15 / 3400.65)) 
Shot that Drops Armor - 1 ((1 - 0.3908) < (2320.15 / 3300.65)) 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 1171.0192 (((2370.15 / 3400.65) - 0.2029) * 2370.15) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 724.2053 (((2320.15 / 3300.65) - 0.3908) * 2320.15) 
Damage Lost to Armor - 639.08 (6.3908 * (50 * 2)) 
Total Damage Lost - 2534.3045 (1171.0192 + 724.2053 + 639.08) 
Time to Kill - 38.7886 (((6.2029 * 60) / 19.4805) + ((6.3908 * 60) / 19.4805)) 

From this we can see that The Javelin is faster by 4.9713 seconds or 11.3604% at killing the Atlas while the Black Widow loses 702.0699 or 27.7027% less damage due to overkill, shield gating, and armor reduction.  In practical situations, time to kill is all that really matters on large targets putting the Javelin ahead on large targets by roughly 11%.

That being said, the Black Widow was close.  It is also important to note that the Black Widow will have 2 rounds left in its clip after finishing off this Atlas whereas the Javelin could do this through wall(s), the floor (in the case of multi-tier stages), and cover. It comes down to this:  As a do-it-all rifle the Black Widow wins due to the speed and efficiency of handling small targets.  As a boss hunter the Javelin wins based on the time taken to drop them.  The Black Widow favors a more aggressive combat style through it's multi-shot capability and lighter weight while the Javelin favors a more defensive style due to it's object-penetration capabilities and shorter (though not by much) time out of cover. My team's sniper does recommend bringing a side-arm along with your Javelin when using it due to the inefficiency when dealing with small targets.  He favors a Mattock 10.  I would also like to mention that due to the cooldown mechanics of Cloak when using a Cloak->Immediatly-Fire combo weight doesn't matter. You will have the same cooldown with a Javelin + Claymore as you will with a Carnifex pistol. This has been tested and verified by many individuals other than myself.

Edit - This post has been edited from it's original form to a much more detailed, and hopefully accurate, comparison that I originally posted on page 5.

Edit 2 - Updated to reflect a mathematical error pointed out by Nasu no Yoichi.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 04 avril 2012 - 02:18 .


#2
SKiLLYWiLLY2

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lol

#3
Keldaurz

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You got proven wrong on the other post already, so you make a new one to see if it goes south this time.

#4
Thiak

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and the new one is even harder to read

even if you might be mathematically correct (i don't want to run the numbers myself now), i will repeat myself here
both weapons are situational, where the BW definately wins vs smaller enemies, the javelin will shine vs the big ones (except maybe sometimes lined up trash)

#5
Uh Cold

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Widow X > wall of text

#6
ttchip

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Thiak wrote...
even if you might be mathematically correct (i don't want to run the numbers myself now), i will repeat myself here both weapons are situational, where the BW definately wins vs smaller enemies, the javelin will shine vs the big ones (except maybe sometimes lined up trash)


This. Jav is too situational to be better than a BW - especially without the damage bleeding through shields/barriers.

Modifié par ttchip, 02 avril 2012 - 02:59 .


#7
X2-Elijah

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How about actually examining the weapons in definite scenarios that actually can happen in game? Not all these useless dps superaim hypotheticals, but a real in-game situation's simulation.

Mathematical proof is only as valid and relevant as the assumptions and environments it is based on. You are constructing this whole proof on a dumbed down, idealized, and impossible scenario..
Aka, a mathematical strawman.

#8
Terraflare

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Wow he posted another identical post when it was proven wrong! I cant bother anymore!

#9
Sp3c7eR

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Please make a video of how long it takes you to kill a Banshee/Atlas/Brute/Ravager on Gold with a Javelin. Then I post one of how long it takes me with Black Widow. We time both. We do the math and see which is superior. Then, if there isn't a clear winner we can do more comparisons but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Your math means nothing without in-game footage.

#10
Micah3sixty

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Despite the weight encumbrance of the Javelin I, I enjoy it over the Widow I. I don't have a BW or Valiant. I use it on my Salarian Infiltrator, Cloak > ED > body/head shot.

#11
ZeroDivision

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Terraflare wrote...

Wow he posted another identical post when it was proven wrong! I cant bother anymore!


1 - My post hasn't been proven mathematically incorrect.
2 - I posted it here to help viewability given that the previous iteration was buried in a flame-war thread.
3 - You have not once legitimately refuted my claim, so I'd recommend you keep trying.

#12
SKiLLYWiLLY2

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lol

#13
Keldaurz

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Denial is the new cool, it seems. Just copypaste your response Terraflare, maybe we will see a third post about this.

#14
Sp3c7eR

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ZeroDivision wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

Wow he posted another identical post when it was proven wrong! I cant bother anymore!


1 - My post hasn't been proven mathematically incorrect.
2 - I posted it here to help viewability given that the previous iteration was buried in a flame-war thread.
3 - You have not once legitimately refuted my claim, so I'd recommend you keep trying.


How about you assume you can't get bonus damage on 3rd BW shot which is blatantly incorrect? It's proven by video footage in both single and multiplayer that you get bonus damage on 3rd BW shot. Just refuted your whole math in a single statement. Oops.

#15
Terraflare

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Sigh, you made me do it Keldaurz! Copy-pasted again for lulz.


Sorry, because you decided to repost this with incorrect numbers, I'll have to correct you again.

An 'iteration' for the Black Widow does not take 5.97 seconds, and Im not talking about reload cancelling here. It takes 4.97 seconds (time to take 3 shots is TWO seconds). 2 + 2.97 = 4.97. Easy. 5 second iterations = 12 iterations per minute.

Secondly, doing these 5 second iterations allow you to 100% of the time gain 3 cloaked shot bonuses. All 3 will ALWAYS get cloak bonuses. The only case you will get 2/3 cloak bonus is when you are trying to (in the current system) get 3 second iterations vs 4 second ones.

If you redo the math (976 x 3 x 12), the BW will do 35136 damage per minute, compared to the Javelin's 36818. Far from being significant.

Too bad reload cancelling is still present and therefore until it is corrected, there is no way a Javelin/Widow can come close to the BW for single target damage.

Edit: Deleted the last part regarding his other comment.

Modifié par Terraflare, 02 avril 2012 - 03:18 .


#16
jimmyw404

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Counterpoint: Most javelin shots are overkill.

#17
ZeroDivision

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Sp3c7eR wrote...

How about you assume you can't get bonus damage on 3rd BW shot which is blatantly incorrect? It's proven by video footage in both single and multiplayer that you get bonus damage on 3rd BW shot. Just refuted your whole math in a single statement. Oops.


How about I assume that the 60bpm RoF and 2.15 second after-cloak damage bonus duration directly gathered from the coalesce.bin are correct. What you're stating is that the game files are wrong.

I'd also like to point out, as mathematically proven elsewhere in this thread, that even if you assume the game files are wrong the Javelin still has a higher damage per second.

Oops, I proved my post correct.

#18
RazRei

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Meh I haven't been lucky enough to get the BW on the PS3 or the PC. On gold Geth Primes with a javelin 1 and AP Ammo 3 I can strip three/four bars of health in one head shot. Not only that it can kill almost everything in cover.

#19
Keldaurz

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ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

How about you assume you can't get bonus damage on 3rd BW shot which is blatantly incorrect? It's proven by video footage in both single and multiplayer that you get bonus damage on 3rd BW shot. Just refuted your whole math in a single statement. Oops.


How about I assume that the 60bpm RoF and 2.15 second after-cloak damage bonus duration directly gathered from the coalesce.bin are correct. What you're stating is that the game files are wrong.

I'd also like to point out, as mathematically proven elsewhere in this thread, that even if you assume the game files are wrong the Javelin still has a higher damage per second.

Oops, I proved my post correct.


Not sure if trolling or....

It has been already stated plenty of times that it takes 2 seconds to shoot 3 bullets with the BW, so you are, again, proving yourself wrong. Man, everybody gets thing wrong sometimes, just deal with it.

#20
LikeReD

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So, with your mathematics how many shots do you need to take down Geth Prime in gold challenge with Javelin equipped by Salarian infiltrator?

#21
ZeroDivision

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Keldaurz wrote...

Not sure if trolling or....

It has been already stated plenty of times that it takes 2 seconds to shoot 3 bullets with the BW, so you are, again, proving yourself wrong. Man, everybody gets thing wrong sometimes, just deal with it.


Yes, let's start the name-calling please.

I just tested it, out of 8 iterations it took me 3 seconds to fire all 3 Black Widow shots each time. This is in line with what the game files tell us.

#22
twister87

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>> this thread

Image IPB

#23
Jitawa

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Doesn't "experiment" imply empirical data? Like from the field? Why not make a youtube video proving this is the case, since theoretical damage stats mean little without the context of things like shield-gates?

#24
phantom121294

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I dont like using game data files as proof, since you know, we kinda still have: ultra light materiel not working, decoys that take over 1500 damage.

#25
Sp3c7eR

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ZeroDivision wrote...

Yes, let's start the name-calling please.

I just tested it, out of 8 iterations it took me 3 seconds to fire all 3 Black Widow shots each time. This is in line with what the game files tell us.


Video please? With timer? And you seem to be missing the point that game files don't tell you anything about power upgrade bonuses, which incidentally cloak benefits from. So the cloak bonus damage duration benefits from "duration-based" evolutions. It might be fractions of a second but it's there and obvious. Which is consistent with what the video evidence shows - precisely 1 shotting 3 mooks in 1 cloak cycle which wouldn't be possible otherwise. OOPS. Your turn.