194 réponses à ce sujet

[XCPTNL]

What good is that math when the friendly next door neighbor Phantom rips you apart because you have only 1 shot that can only take down the barriers no matter how much damage it does. Also you can't quickscope with it. I like the Javelin, it's fun and I even use it sometimes but it is nowhere near as effective in actual gameplay as a Black Widow or a Valiant which lets me take down every enemy aside from the big ones very quickly in 1 cloakcycle without reloading. Not being able to oneshotkill even basic enemies like a Centurion is really killing the purpose of sniper rifles that only have 1 shot - except if you are only there to take care of enemies like Primes and Atlas and such - which a Black Widow can do just fine as well by the way.

[Peer of the Empire]

First shot at 0 seconds
0 seconds --> 1 --> 2

2 seconds for 3 shots

[Sp3c7eR]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

First shot at 0 seconds
0 seconds --> 1 --> 2

2 seconds for 3 shots

Also, quoted for truth. Pretty easy to figure out.

[Blest HR]

all i can tell you is people miss alot more shots with the back widow then they do with the single shots because with the black widow your rushing the shots alot more before you de-cloak

[Terraflare]

I cant believe I'm typing this!

Shot 1 happens at Time 0

Shot 2 happens after 1 second, at Time 1

Shot 3 happens after another second, at Time 2.

I __ I __ I --> vertical line = shot, space = second.

2 seconds!

Here let me do it for you!

Fast forward to 21:54.

There, 3 black widow shots. Close your eyes, take a stop watch. Press when you hear first bang. Press again when you hear 3rd bang. Open eyes. Look at stop watch. See < 2 seconds. Hooray.

[Terraflare]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

First shot at 0 seconds
0 seconds --> 1 --> 2

2 seconds for 3 shots

Also, quoted for truth. Pretty easy to figure out.

Captain Obvious' our work here is done.

[Twisted and Mean]

The "damage per second" concept, applied to anything other than hack and slash RPGs or mumorpugers with their long boss fights, is utterly wrong and meaningless.

Here, I have deconstructed the original post with one sentence.

[Jure Simich]

The OP seems to ignore several factors.
-overkill (damage wasted)
-time needed to replenish ammo (smaller ammo store requires more trips to the box)
-the shot delay makes the javelin require more skill
and just so it doesn't seem that I'm all for the black widow:
-effects of armor damage reduction may still apply (not sure if javelin and black widow have 100% armor ignore)

Modifié par Jure Simich, 02 avril 2012 - 04:17 .

[ZeroDivision]

LikeReD wrote...

So, with your mathematics how many shots do you need to take down Geth Prime in gold challenge with Javelin equipped by Salarian infiltrator?

I don't know the headshot multiplier, though from experience: 3-4. 

I will do a comprehensive analysis of each gun vs an Atlas though: 

Some facts to state before we start:
1 - Mobs with armor on Gold have a flat 50 damage reduction on each shot that hits them. This is taken directly from the coalesce.bin.
2 - Mobs with defenses such as shields or barriers have a 100% gate mechanic on gold.  This means that any damage other than what is required to break the defenses of the mob is negated on the shot that breaks said defenses.
3 - Given that it hasn't been mined or stated othewise, we'll assume that armor-damage-reduction doesn't apply to a mob's shields.
4 - The Atlas has 21094 shields and 21094 armor on Gold.  This is taken directly from the multiplayer balance changes post.
5 - This experiment will yield results in Time to Kill or TtK.
6 - We do not yet know if bonus damage gained from different sources is additive or multiplicative, so for this experiment I will assume no other bonus damage other than the cloak bonus.

Javelin:
Given the previously stated 1957.95 damage per cloak-enhanced shot, the Javelin will take 10.7735 shots to break the sheilds.  This means that due to the shield-gate mechanic 0.2265 or 22.65% of the final shot will be gated at a loss of 443.4757 damage. Now due to the 50 flat-damage-reduction we can assume that the Javelin does 1907.95 damage per shot against the Atlas's now exposed armor. This means that 11.0558 shots are required to drop it's armor and finally kill it. at a loss of 552.7922 damage to armor. Given the already calculated shot/reload iteration speed (based on the data from the coalesce.bin) it will take the Javelin 34.6907 seconds to drop an Atlas's shields and 35.5598 seconds to drop it's armor.  This means it takes a total of 70.2505 seconds to kill an Atlas on Gold with a total damage loss of 996.2679 to armor and shield-gates.

TtK - 70.2505 seconds with no other damage bonuses other than cloak and a rank 1 Javelin.

Black Widow (This will be a bit more complicated given its multiple shot capabilities):
The Black Widow does 976.79 damage per cloak-enhanced shot.  According to both mine and my teammate's testing as well as the game's coalesce.bin file 2 of the 3 shots in it's clip will receive this bonus. Given the 2476.68 damage-per-iteration of the Black Widow it would take a total of 8.5170 iterations to drop an Atlas's Shields. Because of the multiple shot mechanic of the Black Widow it will take 1.5321 (3* 0.5170) shots from the final iteration to actually drop the shields, resulting in 45.79% of the second (cloak enhanced) shot being gated and the final shot going through to the armor. This means a loss of 443.151 damage to the shield-gate mechanic. This also means we can add an additional non-cloak-enhanced shot to the armor total at a cost of 1 second.  Given that armor on gold reduces 50 damage per shot the total iteration of the BW loses 150 total damage  going down to 2325.68 damage per iteration. It should take the Black Widow 9.07 iterations to drop the armor, but due to the pass-through shot it only takes  8.7373 iterations.  Given that the Black Widow can iterate 10.0502 times a minute it would take the Black Widow 50.8467 seconds to drop an Atlas's Shields and 53.1619 (52.1619 + 1 for carry-over shot) seconds to totally drop it.  This results in a total kill time of 104.0086 seconds and 893.401 damage lost to armor and shield-gates.

TtK - 104.0068 seconds with no other damage bonuses other than cloak and a rank 1 Black Widow.

This means that the Javelin will kill an Atlas 33.7563 seconds or 32.4559%  faster than a Black Widow.

Now, for the sake of the argument, lets assume that the data in the coalesce.bin file is wrong at it takes exactly 2.15 seconds to fire all 3 Black Widow Shots.  This means that it iterates every 5.12 seconds or 11.7187 times a second and gets full cloak-enhanced damage from every shot.  This puts the total damage per iteration at 2930.37 taking 7.1984 iterations or 36.8563 seconds to break the shields. Given that 0.5952 or 59.52% of the final shot from the final iteration will be gated (3 * 0.1984) 576.0286damage is gated and no shots carry over. On armor the Black Widow would o 2780.37 damage per iteration and thus require 7.5868 iterations or 38.8449 seconds to drop an Atlas's armor and thus kill it. This brings the total kill time to 75.7012 seconds and955.3182 damage lost to armor and shield-gates.

TtK - 75.7102 seconds with no other damage bonuses other than cloak and an game-file-impossibly-fast firing Black Widow at rank 1.

This means that the Javelin is still 5.4597 seconds or 7.2113% faster than a game-file-impossible Black Widow.

Assuming this were correct it would put it close to the Javelin's killing power, but according to the game files and mine and my teammate's testing it's simply not.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 02 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[ZeroDivision]

Edit - double post.

I should probably mention that re-fire time is used in between the final shot and when the reload animation is kicked in, hence the 3-second iteration on the Black Widow in my math.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 02 avril 2012 - 04:55 .

[HippyGiJoe]

This horse has been beaten to death before. While the javelin/widow are really good weapons, on gold a BW will be superior just because it has 3 shots, i dont care about raw dps since in the actual game you will not cloak>shoot>ED>recloak every second.

There will be time where you run from place to place, or just replenish health/shields or when u get swarmed by 3 husks and then the all of a sudden the javelin/widow will take 3 times the speed to kill.
Math can tell you that the javelin is better but the actual game proves you wrong.

Lets not forget that missing a shot with the BW is more forgiving than the javelin/widow. Now lets not debate on allways hitting the target cause no matter how good a sniper one is, you will never allways hit targets.

Modifié par HippyGiJoe, 02 avril 2012 - 04:57 .

[Sp3c7eR]

@ZeroDivision: Yours and your teammate's testing methods are wrong as proven earlier in the thread. Time 0 (aka cloak breaking) is when 1st shot is fired. The next 2 shots can be fired in 2 seconds which is exactly as long as cloak's damage bonus lasts.

"Iterations" with Black Widow take less time than they do with Javelin simply because Javelin is about 30% heavier. So I don't know how you can say "Javelin: Given the previously stated 1957.95 damage per cloak-enhanced shot, the Javelin will take 10.7735 shots to break the sheilds." and then "This puts the total damage per iteration at 2930.37 taking 7.1984 iterations" for Black Widow and then claim Javelin is faster?

This is simply nonsense. I will make a video on Gold to prove this as I have both Javelin and Black Widow at level 2. Due to lack of Sniper Rail AMPs I will do it with Atlas only for starters.

Modifié par Sp3c7eR, 02 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[ZeroDivision]

Sp3c7eR wrote... 

This is simply nonsense. I will make a video on Gold to prove this as I have both Javelin and Black Widow at level 2. Due to lack of Sniper Rail AMPs I will do it with Atlas only for starters.

Please do, I look forward to seeing if my mathematical experiment holds true practically as well. I would like to note that exploiting animations to cancel reloads on the Black Widow and not on the Javelin, safe to not cancel on either, will prove nothing.

[Keldaurz]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

Not sure if trolling or....

It has been already stated plenty of times that it takes 2 seconds to shoot 3 bullets with the BW, so you are, again, proving yourself wrong. Man, everybody gets thing wrong sometimes, just deal with it.

Yes, let's start the name-calling please.

I just tested it, out of 8 iterations it took me 3 seconds to fire all 3 Black Widow shots each time. This is in line with what the game files tell us.

And here is why i know you are just lying man about "having tested it in game". You know the rate fire of a BW is 60 BPM (and you also said it was that way on the dataminging) so as others had pointed out. There also are several youtube videos showing this.

0 second First shoot.
1 second Second shoot
2 second Third shoot.

Anyways, the datamining had been proven wrong on some other things regarding to how powers work, so when we discuss something, we should already also prove it in-game to clarify, something you haven't done.

I am seeing a lot of numbers which still doesn't disprove (taking mobs health) how a BW can :

- Kill phantoms on one cycle.
- Kill hunters on one cycle.
- Kill pyros on one cycle.
- Kill 2 marauders on one cycle.

I add marauders, because if there are not ravagers and you get a team with biotics (and we are talking about min-maxing here, so 2 biotics or a drell/vanguard should be default when speaking of a take all comers group build), you shouldn't be the one killing the big bad guys, but the marauders, ravagers and canibals so your biotics can kill (much efficiently than you)  banshees and brutes. 

We don't play the game alone. We don't play against one big raid boss. It's more important how much damage you can deal PER CYCLE to 1-3 objectives, than your DPS, because DPS won't be constant and due to headshots a good portion of that "DPS" on bigfat one single shot weapons overkilling stuff (something you should be used to when comparing for example, healing classes on MMORPG's).


And just because you like to ignore facts which people post at you to go back to dig on your datamining...

Terraflare wrote...



Fast forward to 21:54. 

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 05:33 .

[Keldaurz]

me and my double posts.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[Terraflare]

Yup, and given a team scenario with multiple shield strips, a BW can kill a maximum of 3 hunters/centurions/pyros/rockettroopers/ANYTHING with 3 headshots in 1 cycle.

Given a nice platter of 3 unshielded rocket troopers/marauders, it would take 9-10 seconds minimum for a Javelin to kill them all. A biotic will never be exploding these guys, they will always be chain exploding the banshee/brute/prime/atlas.

A BW will do it in 2-3 seconds depending on how fast you aim.

Im not even addressing the OP anymore, he just ignores my posts. This is just for anyone interested to know the limits of what a BW can do. The Valiant is very similiar in this regard.

[xtorma]

so why don't people just play with each weapon theyhave, figure out what they are best with, and go from there.

You can't factor in skill, and that is where the difference is made.

[ZeroDivision]

Terraflare wrote...

Yup, and given a team scenario with multiple shield strips, a BW can kill a maximum of 3 hunters/centurions/pyros/rockettroopers/ANYTHING with 3 headshots in 1 cycle.

Given a nice platter of 3 unshielded rocket troopers/marauders, it would take 9-10 seconds minimum for a Javelin to kill them all. A biotic will never be exploding these guys, they will always be chain exploding the banshee/brute/prime/atlas.

A BW will do it in 2-3 seconds depending on how fast you aim.

Im not even addressing the OP anymore, he just ignores my posts. This is just for anyone interested to know the limits of what a BW can do. The Valiant is very similiar in this regard.

I do not ignore your posts. I simply do not reply when there's no need.

In the situation you posted the Black Widow is indeed better. That being said, your team apparently works the exact opposite of mine. Biotics are much more suited to handling the small targets due to their AoE nature and that is what they should focus on. Fighting with your Adepts over small-target kills is an effort in futility. That leaves the large targets, which due to the way they work, snipers are better suited for anyways.  You'll notice that I preface my OP with this fact if you actually bother to read it.

[nwj94]

ttchip wrote...

This. Jav is too situational to be better than a BW - especially without the damage bleeding through shields/barriers.

This, the BW is better for overall team support.  If you can land consitant head shots than nothing will stand against it.  The Jav is nice, but its so unwieldy (low ammo, delay before shot, heavy) and the fact that most of its damage is just overkill makes it a nice sniper, but not really comparible to widow's.

In my opinion (Asuming your using a mouse not a xbox controler) the BW is the best sniper, with the standered widow a very close second.

Modifié par nwj94, 02 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[Keldaurz]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

Yup, and given a team scenario with multiple shield strips, a BW can kill a maximum of 3 hunters/centurions/pyros/rockettroopers/ANYTHING with 3 headshots in 1 cycle.

Given a nice platter of 3 unshielded rocket troopers/marauders, it would take 9-10 seconds minimum for a Javelin to kill them all. A biotic will never be exploding these guys, they will always be chain exploding the banshee/brute/prime/atlas.

A BW will do it in 2-3 seconds depending on how fast you aim.

Im not even addressing the OP anymore, he just ignores my posts. This is just for anyone interested to know the limits of what a BW can do. The Valiant is very similiar in this regard.

I do not ignore your posts. I simply do not reply when there's no need.

In the situation you posted the Black Widow is indeed better. That being said, your team apparently works the exact opposite of mine. Biotics are much more suited to handling the small targets due to their AoE nature and that is what they should focus on. Fighting with your Adepts over small-target kills is an effort in futility. That leaves the large targets, which due to the way they work, snipers are better suited for anyways.  You'll notice that I preface my OP with this fact if you actually bother to read it.

On gold, most small targets have shields (marauders, centurions, nemesis, geth hunters, rocketeers, etc), making salarian infiltrators way more suited to kill them, than biotics, while biotics are plainly better at taking down large minions, infiltrators are not useless against them, so whenever you can, you squeeze shots at them, but isn't your top priority. Hope we are talking about gold here, and yes, there are "only health" minions, but they are manageable by anything.

Your group of friends should try to reverse roles.

Edit - 

And by the way, the no need to answer only happens when :

- You are proven wrong (so when people show you how the BW in game can get 3 cloaked shots, you just "don't need to answer").
- You don't take into account common sense about overall DPS against damage/kills per cloak cycle and damage lost due to overkill.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[ZeroDivision]

Keldaurz wrote...

On gold, most small targets have shields (marauders, centurions, nemesis, geth hunters, rocketeers, etc), making salarian infiltrators way more suited to kill them, than biotics, while biotics are plainly better at taking down large minions, infiltrators are not useless against them. Hope we are talking about gold here, and yes, there are "only health" minions, but they are manageable by anything.

Your group of friends should try to reverse roles.

Believe me, we tried a bunch of different strategies before we settled on the set we use. An Asari Adept or Human Sentinel can 1-2 combo every mob outside Banshees, Atlases, and Primes if built correctly. To top it off they can do this in an AoE with no ammo limit every 3 seconds or so. Yes, I 2-combo Phantoms, Ravagers, Brutes, Pyros, Hunters, ect... Why would a sniper try to compete with that when they can 4-shot a Prime in 9.66 seconds whereas it takes an adept 6+ combos to kill it? To top it off, Solarian Engineers are more efficient at dropping shields because they generally have higher power damage and faster cooldowns. It's simply more efficient to have the heavy-single-target-hitters focus on the big targets that they can drop the fastest.

[Keldaurz]

lolme

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[Keldaurz]

Keldaurz wrote...

That's because you are focusin' on single target hitters instead of dmg/kills per cloak cycle which can kill more small enemies, and even on that mindset, BW outperforms them with the reload on singletarget right now, or just do almost the same DPS if you don't do the reload trick while retaining the ability to be able to kill another threats smoothly and faster than single target snipers and biotic combos.

About the rest (salarian engineer for example), is pointless because the salarian engineer can't strip barrier + kill on one cd cycle and their role is totally different being more of a stagger/utility guy than a damage dealer, not to speak how wrong is to try to set up biotic combos on small targets if you got an engineer for them.

And yet again you miss another BIG thing, it's about 2 biotics, not one, and every mob around the big mob gets hit (most of the time, as you are funneling enemies other big targets will get hit too). For example against reapers it's almost pointless use biotics on anything else than canibals at the beginning, everything else is go for brutes/banshees because how biotic combos work and how fast you drop big mobs while also shooting your carnifex, so your biotics try to stop them to don't let them swarm you while you are funnelin on one direction and infiltrators (being the stealthy class it is) can kill more reliablily any threat what would flank your biotic bombers.

But well, this is my last post because instead of try out things and have an open minded discussion before getting to conclussions, even if people already show you what's wrong with what you are saying.

[Lolb4udiez]

Javelin FTW!

[daboob000852547]

Instead of just looking at what the javelin/black widow can do by itself why doesn't anyone do a comparison with teams with the only variation being the sniper rifle. Since this is a co-op game and not army of one wouldn't that be the only logical way to compare the two?