194 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraflare]

ZeroDivision wrote...

I do not ignore your posts. I simply do not reply when there's no need.

In the situation you posted the Black Widow is indeed better. That being said, your team apparently works the exact opposite of mine. Biotics are much more suited to handling the small targets due to their AoE nature and that is what they should focus on. Fighting with your Adepts over small-target kills is an effort in futility. That leaves the large targets, which due to the way they work, snipers are better suited for anyways.  You'll notice that I preface my OP with this fact if you actually bother to read it.

Wrong. You ignore posts that prove you wrong. At least 5 people have stated (I with video proof) above, that a BW takes 2 seconds to fire 3 shots. Yet, instead of immediately acknowledging this fact, you proceed to post a HUGELY irrelevant set of calculations, based on your continued assumption that 1 iteration takes 5.97 seconds on a BW, and simply dismissed the true, and obvious case of 4.97 second iterations as an "impossible-by-game-file scenario". You also dismiss the fact that you can pull off 3 cloak shots as being "simply impossible", again completely false, a fact that again at least 5 people have stated and proved. 

You prefaced your calculations of the second, and true part with "for the sake of argument", which obviously means you still refuse to acknowledge that THAT set of calculations is not just for any argument's sake, it is the CORRECT calculation that some people might be interested in. 

Now, you see that you have, with calculations closer to being correct, discovered that a BW will put at DPS at about 7% lower (5% if i simply use 2 second fire times isntead of 2.15, in reality again it doesnt make a difference). 7% extra time may translate to a 8 vs 9 second kill time on Atlas assuming cloak + damage bonuses or other people shooting, maybe more or less. This is insignificant. In game, I kill a prime in 2 (occasionaly 3) clips using a BW, the same for a Javelin. 

The reason I correct you is because you post the false calculations on threads where people complain about the BW being useless, and if they, being new players, are fed terrible information on how the guns actually perform, will continue thinking "SINGLE SHOT VS ATLAS ALWAYS BEST". 

Finally, arguing about what role a inf should play is ridiculous. Because it has been proven (by yourself) and many other good infiltrators that the BW can do anything the Javelin/Widow can do versus big targets EQUALLY well (and with reload cancelling, much better), while giving you extra flexibility to spread damage as you see fit. In a match if I see a banshee that needs to be staggered and 2 marauders backstabbing with a teammate handling them, do I blindly drop what I'm doing and just go after the marauders? Vice versa, if I see my team mate getting flanked by 3 hunters do I blindly stick to "dpsing that big target" because thats where I am best at, and everyone should just deal with it? 

The BW can do everything a Javelin/Widow X can do, whereas the Widow/Javelin cannot do everything the BW can do. Again this isnt really addressed to the OP, but to any newer players who are fortunate enough to get both weapons early, so that you can practice at the weapon which will contribute more to the team and possibly save my ass in a gold match sometime in the future.

[Canasian81]

ZeroDivision wrote...

I do not ignore your posts. I simply do not reply when there's no need.

Oh the hubris...

[Trix-Rabbit]

ZeroDivision wrote...

LikeReD wrote...

So, with your mathematics how many shots do you need to take down Geth Prime in gold challenge with Javelin equipped by Salarian infiltrator?

I don't know the headshot multiplier, though from experience: 3-4. 

I will do a comprehensive analysis of each gun vs an Atlas though: 

Some facts to state before we start:
1 - Mobs with armor on Gold have a flat 50 damage reduction on each shot that hits them. This is taken directly from the coalesce.bin.
2 - Mobs with defenses such as shields or barriers have a 100% gate mechanic on gold.  This means that any damage other than what is required to break the defenses of the mob is negated on the shot that breaks said defenses.
3 - Given that it hasn't been mined or stated othewise, we'll assume that armor-damage-reduction doesn't apply to a mob's shields.
4 - The Atlas has 21094 shields and 21094 armor on Gold.  This is taken directly from the multiplayer balance changes post.
5 - This experiment will yield results in Time to Kill or TtK.
6 - We do not yet know if bonus damage gained from different sources is additive or multiplicative, so for this experiment I will assume no other bonus damage other than the cloak bonus.

Javelin:
Given the previously stated 1957.95 damage per cloak-enhanced shot, the Javelin will take 10.7735 shots to break the sheilds.  This means that due to the shield-gate mechanic 0.2265 or 22.65% of the final shot will be gated at a loss of 443.4757 damage. Now due to the 50 flat-damage-reduction we can assume that the Javelin does 1907.95 damage per shot against the Atlas's now exposed armor. This means that 11.0558 shots are required to drop it's armor and finally kill it. at a loss of 552.7922 damage to armor. Given the already calculated shot/reload iteration speed (based on the data from the coalesce.bin) it will take the Javelin 34.6907 seconds to drop an Atlas's shields and 35.5598 seconds to drop it's armor.  This means it takes a total of 70.2505 seconds to kill an Atlas on Gold with a total damage loss of 996.2679 to armor and shield-gates.

TtK - 70.2505 seconds with no other damage bonuses other than cloak and a rank 1 Javelin.

Black Widow (This will be a bit more complicated given its multiple shot capabilities):
The Black Widow does 976.79 damage per cloak-enhanced shot.  According to both mine and my teammate's testing as well as the game's coalesce.bin file 2 of the 3 shots in it's clip will receive this bonus. Given the 2476.68 damage-per-iteration of the Black Widow it would take a total of 8.5170 iterations to drop an Atlas's Shields. Because of the multiple shot mechanic of the Black Widow it will take 1.5321 (3* 0.5170) shots from the final iteration to actually drop the shields, resulting in 45.79% of the second (cloak enhanced) shot being gated and the final shot going through to the armor. This means a loss of 443.151 damage to the shield-gate mechanic. This also means we can add an additional non-cloak-enhanced shot to the armor total at a cost of 1 second.  Given that armor on gold reduces 50 damage per shot the total iteration of the BW loses 150 total damage  going down to 2325.68 damage per iteration. It should take the Black Widow 9.07 iterations to drop the armor, but due to the pass-through shot it only takes  8.7373 iterations.  Given that the Black Widow can iterate 10.0502 times a minute it would take the Black Widow 50.8467 seconds to drop an Atlas's Shields and 53.1619 (52.1619 + 1 for carry-over shot) seconds to totally drop it.  This results in a total kill time of 104.0086 seconds and 893.401 damage lost to armor and shield-gates.

TtK - 104.0068 seconds with no other damage bonuses other than cloak and a rank 1 Black Widow.

This means that the Javelin will kill an Atlas 33.7563 seconds or 32.4559%  faster than a Black Widow.

Now, for the sake of the argument, lets assume that the data in the coalesce.bin file is wrong at it takes exactly 2.15 seconds to fire all 3 Black Widow Shots.  This means that it iterates every 5.12 seconds or 11.7187 times a second and gets full cloak-enhanced damage from every shot.  This puts the total damage per iteration at 2930.37 taking 7.1984 iterations or 36.8563 seconds to break the shields. Given that 0.5952 or 59.52% of the final shot from the final iteration will be gated (3 * 0.1984) 576.0286damage is gated and no shots carry over. On armor the Black Widow would o 2780.37 damage per iteration and thus require 7.5868 iterations or 38.8449 seconds to drop an Atlas's armor and thus kill it. This brings the total kill time to 75.7012 seconds and955.3182 damage lost to armor and shield-gates.

TtK - 75.7102 seconds with no other damage bonuses other than cloak and an game-file-impossibly-fast firing Black Widow at rank 1.

This means that the Javelin is still 5.4597 seconds or 7.2113% faster than a game-file-impossible Black Widow.

Assuming this were correct it would put it close to the Javelin's killing power, but according to the game files and mine and my teammate's testing it's simply not.

You should calculate energy drain into that and include the mantis/valiant and widow. with their respective builds.

pure weapon damage alone is not enough, you need to put it in context of builds and other things.

[PeeplesMcNasty]

Goodness, this is quite a mess.

In short, both guns have their purposes and their own advantages. Neither one is better than the other overall, the player and the play-style determine which one is more suited to the task. Numbers alone will not make a player any better with either weapon. The enemy, the wave, the team and their classes/builds, the offensive/defensive strategies, and the overall skill of the players are the real deciding factors.

[Trix-Rabbit]

PeeplesMcNasty wrote...

Goodness, this is quite a mess.

In short, both guns have their purposes and their own advantages. Neither one is better than the other overall, the player and the play-style determine which one is more suited to the task. Numbers alone will not make a player any better with either weapon. The enemy, the wave, the team and their classes/builds, the offensive/defensive strategies, and the overall skill of the players are the real deciding factors.

Not really. Not saying OP is right, cause hes leaving out ED and i think thats a huge factor, esp vs shielded enemies.

But i think it is possible to  see which one is better.

[Keldaurz]

Trix-Rabbit wrote...

PeeplesMcNasty wrote...

Goodness, this is quite a mess.

In short, both guns have their purposes and their own advantages. Neither one is better than the other overall, the player and the play-style determine which one is more suited to the task. Numbers alone will not make a player any better with either weapon. The enemy, the wave, the team and their classes/builds, the offensive/defensive strategies, and the overall skill of the players are the real deciding factors.

Not really. Not saying OP is right, cause hes leaving out ED and i think thats a huge factor, esp vs shielded enemies.

But i think it is possible to  see which one is better.

Already had been stated.

Difference on single target damage per cloak withouth reload trick on big mobs is around 7% less damage (insignificant).

Difference on barrier/shielded small enemies. BW wins being able to dish out more damage due to spreading shots instead of overkilling. Same for nonshielded.

BW is able to kill enemies on one cycle which also a javelin can't handle on one cycle even with ED (hunters, phantoms).

The thing is, on a take all comers group, you can take whatever role is needed whenever is needed with a BW. With a javelin you must stick to hit dat big thing or you are actually wasting it's high damage potential overkilling stuff.

[DontLickTheSoap]

I personally have a BW III and a Jav III but I rarely use them... why? Widow X... put me in a game with someone who has a BW or Jav and my killing rate + score will be double halfway through the waves and stay that way throughout.

Math aside, few will obtain a BW X or a Jav X (or Valiant X).... many will aquire a Widow X.

Widow X = best sniper in the game for all situations. GG.

[Shahadem]

Jitawa wrote...

Doesn't "experiment" imply empirical data? Like from the field? Why not make a youtube video proving this is the case, since theoretical damage stats mean little without the context of things like shield-gates?

But shield gates could be taken into consideration.

Mordin would be displeased with this sloppy and incorrect freshman analysis the opener continues to use.

[Trix-Rabbit]

I just did 2 dozen Gold runs vs geth with the mantis X. And let me tell you, my sniper rifle was a side show compared to my ED and PM kills. 100K+ on every game and always the top even whilst delivering a 20 percent dmg buff all day. and ive got exceptional aim with any SR.

[venetiancrusader]

I am eating pork fried rice while reading this thread...

[RTS suDnd3th]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

Wow he posted another identical post when it was proven wrong! I cant bother anymore!

1 - My post hasn't been proven mathematically incorrect.
2 - I posted it here to help viewability given that the previous iteration was buried in a flame-war thread.
3 - You have not once legitimately refuted my claim, so I'd recommend you keep trying.

This made me lol. Show's Brain Smart people arent actually Smart if they don't have any common sense. Numbers are numbers, Math is Math, It works in a perfect situation's and no situations is perfect unless you are only looking at numbers.

It doesn't Account any variables just the guns stats.

[Sp3c7eR]

 As promised:  Black Widow II vs Javelin II weapon comparison vs Atlas on Gold.

Feel free to give your opinion, but I think it wasn't even close...

[ZeroDivision]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 As promised:  Black Widow II vs Javelin II weapon comparison vs Atlas on Gold.

Feel free to give your opinion, but I think it wasn't even close...

Reload exploit used,  Invalid.

[Keldaurz]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 As promised:  Black Widow II vs Javelin II weapon comparison vs Atlas on Gold.

Feel free to give your opinion, but I think it wasn't even close...

No it wasn't close, it's actually a 31% faster than the javelin and killing single targets, and it make sense since two cloaked shots of the BW are almost the equivalent of 1 cloakedshot of the javelin, so with a third... you get almost 1/3 faster kills. It actually makes perfectly sense with my feelings on game and with my basics maths skills. 

So even with the "better at single target" fact refuted, i think everybody has to admit the BW doesn't suck ;p

I don't have the valiant, but would be cool to know how it would perform, pretty sure it would require more cycles but since i don't have one, i had never experienced it.

Thanks for the work btw.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 03 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[Keldaurz]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 As promised:  Black Widow II vs Javelin II weapon comparison vs Atlas on Gold.

Feel free to give your opinion, but I think it wasn't even close...

Reload exploit used,  Invalid.

Even if that's the case (you guys will have to tell me if that's an exploit, because i do the same), that's 4 cycles, let's use your math.

4,97s per cycle x 4 cycles = 19,88s

Still faster than the javelin.

Where are your vids btw ?

[Terraflare]

Just a clarification, this is with reload cancelling though, so add 4 seconds (you did 4 cycles) and the BW beats by a fraction still. Overall both guns would take 20 ish seconds and at that speed really differences are minute, but with reload cancel it widely favours the BW. Good to also see all 3 shots doing 2 armor bars of damage, further proof you get cloak bonuses on all shots.

Thanks for the vid.

[Terraflare]

Also good to see 3 shots taking 2 seconds, as if there were any doubt on that at all. HAHAHAHAHAH

[Sp3c7eR]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 As promised:  Black Widow II vs Javelin II weapon comparison vs Atlas on Gold.

Feel free to give your opinion, but I think it wasn't even close...

Reload exploit used,  Invalid.

Reload exploit? I activated cloak at the time it was ready, it's not an exploit. And if you want to word it that way, I used the "exploit" where you fire Javelin immediately after cloaking thus reducing cloak cooldown by a huge amount. As you can see the cloak cycles with Javelin were even faster than with Black Widow which is not normally the case. Anything to say about that? The damage done says it all - 6 cycles for Javelin, 4 for Black Widow. Whether you shave 2 sec from either doesn't make a difference, Black Widow is MUCH faster.

[Keldaurz]

So it is. I didn't know i was doing it the thug way ;p

So let's get some more clarifications.

Taking down an atlas

BW With reload cancel (till gets fixed) --- 16.22s / 4 cycles
BW withouth reload cancel --- around 20s / 4 cycles
Javelin --- 22s / 6 cycles.

It's not that biggy if they fix it the reload cancel, but it still lacks the flexibility of the BW to take down multiple or high threats on just 1 cycle so i think it's pretty clear which one is the winner anyways.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 03 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[xtorma]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 As promised:  Black Widow II vs Javelin II weapon comparison vs Atlas on Gold.

Feel free to give your opinion, but I think it wasn't even close...

Reload exploit used,  Invalid.

Reload exploit? I activated cloak at the time it was ready, it's not an exploit. And if you want to word it that way, I used the "exploit" where you fire Javelin immediately after cloaking thus reducing cloak cooldown by a huge amount. As you can see the cloak cycles with Javelin were even faster than with Black Widow which is not normally the case. Anything to say about that? The damage done says it all - 6 cycles for Javelin, 4 for Black Widow. Whether you shave 2 sec from either doesn't make a difference, Black Widow is MUCH faster.

you went through a lot of trouble to try and prove your point, and people still won't listen. This is like a democrat trying to convince a bunch of bankers high taxes on the rich are good for everyone, you have done nothing but waste time and effort.

I am sure they will try and refute this by doing thier own video without using the game mechanic available to them to try and further thier argument. Reading this thread is like clicking between fox news and cnn.

[Terraflare]

Hes going to ignore all your posts because he has stomped his feet, made his point, and there isnt anything to say, just like how he ignored every point i mentioned earlier.

[Merforga]

I don't have BW yet but I do have Javelin II. Suffice to say, I prefer the Javelin. Crit shots (i.e. head shot to Prime, Reactor shot to Atlas etc) without shields will kill them in 2-3 shots with a Javelin on gold. I'm not too sure if it will be the same with the BW. The only exception are banshees (they're tough mofos).

The other advantage with Javelin is that it can shoot through basically most cover, and can double/triple kill mooks in one shot. That said, playing as an SI, ED is a MUST if you use a one shot sniper like Javelin otherwise shield gate will be the death of you.Don't care too much for numbers, I absolutely love the Javelin. Also, BW users with 3 shots tend to stick their head out too long and become tunnel visioned leading them to die more...

[Keldaurz]

Yeah, we should just stop trying to discuss, point had been already discussed and beating the dead horse anymore will be useless as some people won't ever accept when they are wrong, and use the gained knowledge to their advantadge. 

[venetiancrusader]

i am now eating popcorn while reading more of this thread...

[CheetahZ1]

The reload "exploit" shouldn't be considered an exploit anymore.



It was in ME2 and never taken out. Usually games will take small bugs like this and just leave it in the game as a gameplay mechanic rewarding some sort of skill (Such as "Plinking" in Capcom Fighters)