194 réponses à ce sujet

[ezrafetch]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Reload exploit used,  Invalid.

Reload canceling has never been an "exploit" or a "glitch" in any game with guns. Calling it an exploit is trying to spin what has always been a perfectly valid game mechanic into some demonic monstrosity. Quite frankly, I have neither the BW nor Javelin so I don't really care which gun is better, but calling something that's been around since the dawn of games with guns is unwarranted.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 03 avril 2012 - 01:54 .

[BooBooZX]

Merforga wrote...

I don't have BW yet but I do have Javelin II. Suffice to say, I prefer the Javelin. Crit shots (i.e. head shot to Prime, Reactor shot to Atlas etc) without shields will kill them in 2-3 shots with a Javelin on gold. I'm not too sure if it will be the same with the BW. The only exception are banshees (they're tough mofos).

The other advantage with Javelin is that it can shoot through basically most cover, and can double/triple kill mooks in one shot. That said, playing as an SI, ED is a MUST if you use a one shot sniper like Javelin otherwise shield gate will be the death of you.Don't care too much for numbers, I absolutely love the Javelin. Also, BW users with 3 shots tend to stick their head out too long and become tunnel visioned leading them to die more...

I have a javelin II also, and really the number crunching is moot, Javlin w/ SI=cloak+ED=no shield=1 dead meat bag. Also don't even start claiming javelin sucks for phantoms, shoot her 1 time(throw in the ED after for lil extra damage) she runs to cover invisible....guess what...my javelin lets me see you through that  solid block and shoot your invisible head.

The main point of the Black Widow is kinda killed if you try to use it like the Javelin(ED/shot combo) because you are using the damage bonus for atleast 1 shot for a lesser damage.

So as you said SI=king of single shot snipers, however BW makes races besides Salarian viable for the infiltrator spot.

Modifié par BooBooZX, 03 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[Hiero Glyph]

ezrafetch wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Reload exploit used,  Invalid.

Reload canceling has never been an "exploit" or a "glitch" in any game with guns. Calling it an exploit is trying to spin what has always been a perfectly valid game mechanic into some demonic monstrosity. Quite frankly, I have neither the BW nor Javelin so I don't really care which gun is better, but calling something that's been around since the dawn of games with guns is unwarranted.

Just because most games have the same glitch does not make it any less of a glitch.  It certainly is not considered a feature.  It is sad when many in the industry ignore such simple glitches to the point where ignorant players consider it a feature.  For the record there are many famous glitches that developers neglected to fix, they are still however glitches regardless of their fame.

[ZeroDivision]

Terraflare wrote...

Hes going to ignore all your posts because he has stomped his feet, made his point, and there isnt anything to say, just like how he ignored every point i mentioned earlier.

If you'd like I could debunk your claim?  After timing his BW reload-exploits he was able to cut off between 1.7 and 1.97 seconds of the reload animation each time.  That's an average of 1.8 seconds added to each iteration.  It took him 4 iterations bringing it to a total of 7.34 seconds gained. This means that it would have taken him 23.56 seconds with the black widow assuming no exploit.  He's also taking an average of 0.68 seconds (2 were over a second, 1 was very close) to fire the Javelin instead of the minimum 0.25 seconds. meaning that he lost 2.58 seconds.  Under ideal circumstances that puts the Javelin at 20.42 compared to a non-exploited BW at 23.56.   I've timed this (admittedly using a phone app) 20 total times to ensure a modicrum of accuracy.

This has proved one thing though.  In a practical situation a person skilled with the Black Widow and not as practiced with the Javelin will be better with the Black Widow.  Thus numbers don't mean everything as player skill cannot be accurately quantified as a number using any algorithm I know.



As an asside I would also like to point out that any animation besides the standard movement (even switching weapons, sprinting, or moving into cover) will cancel reload animations after the ammo number is iterated.  This means that you can very easily use the exploit with the Javelin as well, though not with the cloak bonus each time.

[Choc]

I have a Black Widow that I've used all of two times. Can't justify using it over a Claymore X on my Infiltrator. ={

[Sp3c7eR]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

Hes going to ignore all your posts because he has stomped his feet, made his point, and there isnt anything to say, just like how he ignored every point i mentioned earlier.

If you'd like I could debunk your claim?  After timing his BW reload-exploits he was able to cut off between 1.7 and 1.97 seconds of the reload animation each time.  That's an average of 1.8 seconds added to each iteration.  It took him 4 iterations bringing it to a total of 7.34 seconds gained. This means that it would have taken him 23.56 seconds with the black widow assuming no exploit.  He's also taking an average of 0.68 seconds (2 were over a second, 1 was very close) to fire the Javelin instead of the minimum 0.25 seconds. meaning that he lost 2.58 seconds.  Under ideal circumstances that puts the Javelin at 20.42 compared to a non-exploited BW at 23.56.   I've timed this (admittedly using a phone app) 20 total times to ensure a modicrum of accuracy.

This has proved one thing though.  In a practical situation a person skilled with the Black Widow and not as practiced with the Javelin will be better with the Black Widow.  Thus numbers don't mean everything as player skill cannot be accurately quantified as a number using any algorithm I know.



As an asside I would also like to point out that any animation besides the standard movement (even switching weapons, sprinting, or moving into cover) will cancel reload animations after the ammo number is iterated.  This means that you can very easily use the exploit with the Javelin as well, though not with the cloak bonus each time.

ROFLMAO. This is just insulting your own intelligence, honestly. "non-exploited"? Seriously? First of all, if you had played Mass Effect 2 or read any of ME2's Lead Gameplay Designer's comments, you'd never argue that reload cancelling is an exploit. Second, please provide a video of you utlising the Javelin better than I do, also kindly provide a timer to go with that as well so we can see how much faster you're going to be with activating cloak/firing. There's bound to be a delay between cloak activation and firing the weapon which is more than 0.25 seconds as evidenced in the Black Widow scenario as well. You can't say I fired with 0.0 secon delay there, right? So yeah, keep grasping at straws.

With the Black Widow I didn't get cloak damage bonus on 3rd shot of 1st cloak sequence because if I had, I would've needed 1 less shot to bring down the Atlas. It is by no means a perfect kill because I tested on other Atlases in later waves and I managed to bring one down with 1 less shot than shown in video. Granted, I didn't want to show this as half the time the Atlas was so far away shield/armor bar was not visible. 

So you'll have to accept there are inaccuracies/things that could have been done better, but the general point still stands - if BW wasn't better at single target DPS, the difference wouldn't be so huge. If you discuss this further I'll just assume you're trolling unless you provide video evidence of your own to support it.

[ZombiesNBacon]

I mainly have trouble timing Black Widow shots with cloak on smaller enemies. I use to be so behind the Black Widow because of the 3 shots but the Rate of Fire is just horrible and doesn't work well with cloak. Hence why i've begun using Widow X over Black Widow I.

If I've fired 2 shots on one target and then re aim to fire the 3rd shot on a different target I've delayed my next cloak cycle. I could recloak before the 3rd shot but then I'm stuck reloading with wasted cloak bonus potential. With Widow it's simple: cloak -> shoot once, by the time you're done reloading cloak is ready again.

Don't get me wrong I'm not in favor of the Javelin but I'm also not really in favor of Black Widow unless it's high level. Widow X seems to trump all since it's easier to obtain and suits cloak well. Now the Valiant... that is a 3-shot sniper I could get behind since the RoF guarantees you'll get all 3 shots off in one cloak cycle even if you have to re adjust your aim onto 3 separate targets. However I don't have the Valiant. Ok... now I'm REALLY off topic.

[RTS suDnd3th]

Merforga wrote...

I don't have BW yet but I do have Javelin II. Suffice to say, I prefer the Javelin. Crit shots (i.e. head shot to Prime, Reactor shot to Atlas etc) without shields will kill them in 2-3 shots with a Javelin on gold. I'm not too sure if it will be the same with the BW. The only exception are banshees (they're tough mofos).

The other advantage with Javelin is that it can shoot through basically most cover, and can double/triple kill mooks in one shot. That said, playing as an SI, ED is a MUST if you use a one shot sniper like Javelin otherwise shield gate will be the death of you.Don't care too much for numbers, I absolutely love the Javelin. Also, BW users with 3 shots tend to stick their head out too long and become tunnel visioned leading them to die more...

I still prefer my Widow X with Barrel + AP mod + AP Ammo, easily can 3 shot geth primes like that on a SI.

Cloak>Shoot>ED, Cloak>ED>Shoot,  Cloak>Shoot usually dead from full shields.

And the Cover peircing like that goes threw quite a bit. Dont need the nice little scope to tell me where they are in most cases.

[probablynot]

RTS suDnd3th wrote...

Merforga wrote...

I don't have BW yet but I do have Javelin II. Suffice to say, I prefer the Javelin. Crit shots (i.e. head shot to Prime, Reactor shot to Atlas etc) without shields will kill them in 2-3 shots with a Javelin on gold. I'm not too sure if it will be the same with the BW. The only exception are banshees (they're tough mofos).

The other advantage with Javelin is that it can shoot through basically most cover, and can double/triple kill mooks in one shot. That said, playing as an SI, ED is a MUST if you use a one shot sniper like Javelin otherwise shield gate will be the death of you.Don't care too much for numbers, I absolutely love the Javelin. Also, BW users with 3 shots tend to stick their head out too long and become tunnel visioned leading them to die more...

I still prefer my Widow X with Barrel + AP mod + AP Ammo, easily can 3 shot geth primes like that on a SI.

Cloak>Shoot>ED, Cloak>ED>Shoot,  Cloak>Shoot usually dead from full shields.

And the Cover peircing like that goes threw quite a bit. Dont need the nice little scope to tell me where they are in most cases.

Black widow can kill a geth prime with only 1 reload, it kills much faster than the widow. If you are sufficiently good at this game, I can see almost (read almost) no reason to ever use a widow over a black widow.

[RTS suDnd3th]

my problem is the game wont give me the damn Black Widow, i have just about every weapon at lvl X besides N7 variants and i have yet to unlock the BW while i have friends with BW 4/5 and they've gotten maybe half the spectre packs i've gotten

Modifié par RTS suDnd3th, 03 avril 2012 - 02:30 .

[MartialArtsSurfer]

just as an aside:

1 -A Bioware Developer said they were aware of reload canceling & fine with it & they themselves used it (ie, they have no plans to remove it)

2 -the headshot multiplier is 250% (the bonus damage is 150% which is added to the original 100%).

3 -both are great guns.. some people are more skilled with one than the other.. different strokes for different folks

some people find the flexiblity & damage of the BW superior while others find the see-behind-walls to hunt big targets of the javelin better for their playstyle

[RamsenC]

Ha, I remember a dev mentioned in the ME2 Vanguard thread how to reload cancel the Claymore. If you aren't reload canceling you are doing it wrong.

[ZombiesNBacon]

RTS suDnd3th wrote...

Merforga wrote...

I don't have BW yet but I do have Javelin II. Suffice to say, I prefer the Javelin. Crit shots (i.e. head shot to Prime, Reactor shot to Atlas etc) without shields will kill them in 2-3 shots with a Javelin on gold. I'm not too sure if it will be the same with the BW. The only exception are banshees (they're tough mofos).

The other advantage with Javelin is that it can shoot through basically most cover, and can double/triple kill mooks in one shot. That said, playing as an SI, ED is a MUST if you use a one shot sniper like Javelin otherwise shield gate will be the death of you.Don't care too much for numbers, I absolutely love the Javelin. Also, BW users with 3 shots tend to stick their head out too long and become tunnel visioned leading them to die more...

I still prefer my Widow X with Barrel + AP mod + AP Ammo, easily can 3 shot geth primes like that on a SI.

Cloak>Shoot>ED, Cloak>ED>Shoot,  Cloak>Shoot usually dead from full shields.

And the Cover peircing like that goes threw quite a bit. Dont need the nice little scope to tell me where they are in most cases.

You can 3 shot geth primes without AP mod or AP ammo in my experience.

[Keldaurz]

ZombiesNBacon wrote...

I mainly have trouble timing Black Widow shots with cloak on smaller enemies. I use to be so behind the Black Widow because of the 3 shots but the Rate of Fire is just horrible and doesn't work well with cloak. Hence why i've begun using Widow X over Black Widow I.

If I've fired 2 shots on one target and then re aim to fire the 3rd shot on a different target I've delayed my next cloak cycle. I could recloak before the 3rd shot but then I'm stuck reloading with wasted cloak bonus potential. With Widow it's simple: cloak -> shoot once, by the time you're done reloading cloak is ready again.

Don't get me wrong I'm not in favor of the Javelin but I'm also not really in favor of Black Widow unless it's high level. Widow X seems to trump all since it's easier to obtain and suits cloak well. Now the Valiant... that is a 3-shot sniper I could get behind since the RoF guarantees you'll get all 3 shots off in one cloak cycle even if you have to re adjust your aim onto 3 separate targets. However I don't have the Valiant. Ok... now I'm REALLY off topic.

That isn't a black widow problem, is more black widow has a bigger skill ceiling than widow. I can most part of the time land the three shots while retaining the bonuses on the 2 even 3 different targets sometimes, even headshotting. 

So yes, we can agree if you are not good and abstract thinking, aiming and reading combat/enemy movements then you are better off overkilling stuff. That doesn't make the weapon better, it just makes it more suited for your skill level (nothing wrong with that, i am not trying to be elitist jerk). If you have some interest on getting better with it tho, i would suggest you to tryhard with the BW and learn how to minmax with it. Even when i am just doing 2 shots from cloak instead of the three, i know i am actually killing more than with a widow.

Only doubt i have left, is the valiant, just because even if i had seen videos, i would like to test it by myself.

[Keldaurz]

ZombiesNBacon wrote...

RTS suDnd3th wrote...

Merforga wrote...

I don't have BW yet but I do have Javelin II. Suffice to say, I prefer the Javelin. Crit shots (i.e. head shot to Prime, Reactor shot to Atlas etc) without shields will kill them in 2-3 shots with a Javelin on gold. I'm not too sure if it will be the same with the BW. The only exception are banshees (they're tough mofos).

The other advantage with Javelin is that it can shoot through basically most cover, and can double/triple kill mooks in one shot. That said, playing as an SI, ED is a MUST if you use a one shot sniper like Javelin otherwise shield gate will be the death of you.Don't care too much for numbers, I absolutely love the Javelin. Also, BW users with 3 shots tend to stick their head out too long and become tunnel visioned leading them to die more...

I still prefer my Widow X with Barrel + AP mod + AP Ammo, easily can 3 shot geth primes like that on a SI.

Cloak>Shoot>ED, Cloak>ED>Shoot,  Cloak>Shoot usually dead from full shields.

And the Cover peircing like that goes threw quite a bit. Dont need the nice little scope to tell me where they are in most cases.

You can 3 shot geth primes without AP mod or AP ammo in my experience.

You can 2 cloak cycle primes with BW withouth any AP mod or AP ammo.

[GodlessPaladin]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Notes before we start:
1 - This is, as stated in the title, concerning Gold level difficulty.  Silver and Bronze are a completely different story as that's where the Black Widow shines.
2 - Snipers in Gold shot not be shooting for the little targets (soldiers, cannibals, etc..) after wave 2 as there will be much more important targets to take down and your ever-present Engineers, Vanguards, Adepts, and Sentinels are much more efficient at killing the little guys with their high-damage AoE powers and combos.
3 - This is assuming that the individual using the guns is capable of getting past the 0.25 second delay on the Javelin and doesn't require 3 attempts to actually hit a target.  If you miss 1-2 of your Black Widow shots and can't adjust to the 0.25 second delay you probably shouldn't be using either gun.

For this mathematical experiment we're going to assume that the same individual is using a Black Widow ranked 1 and a Javelin ranked 1.  We can assume that all shots are body shots as we don't know what the head-shot multiplier is (though it's the same between the Black Widow and Javelin) and therefore will not make for good mathematical proof.  We'll also assume that the individual in question is using their cloak and that it's spec'd for 90% damage increase when firing from cloak and for roughly 2 seconds after, they are using cloak only for damage thus resulting in roughly a 3 second cool-down, and that they are using thermal clips or camping ammo boxes so that ammo isn't a problem.  I will not be factoring any animation exploits into my math as they are not intended, not officially part of the game, and will be removed "soon."

First some stats:

Javelin:
Damage - 1030.5 damage per shot.
Shots in a clip - 1
Reload time - 2.97 seconds
Time before shooting - 0.25 seconds
Time to fire a full clip and reload - 3.22 seconds
Number of fire/reload iterations in a minute - 18.6335
Rate of fire - 18.6335 bpm (actual)
Number of shots fired with cloak bonus per iteration - 1

Black Widow:
Damage - 514.1 damage per shot.
Shots in a clip - 3
Reload time - 2.97 seconds
Time before shooting - 0.0 seconds
Time to fire a full clip and reload - 5.97 seconds
Number of fire/reload iterations in a minute - 10.0502
Rate of fire - 60 bpm with an actual RoF of 30.1506 (iterations per minute multiplied by the shots in a clip)
Number of shots fired with cloak bonus per iteration - 2

Now lets get down to the core math:

The Black Widow does 976.79 damage on a cloaked shot.  There are two of these per iteration with one 514.1 damage shot.  This means that per iteration the Black Widow does 2476.68 damage in an iteration.  At 10.0502 iterations per minute that means the Black Widow does 24800.6775 damage in a minute or 413.3446 damage per second.

The Javelin does 1957.95 damage on a cloaked shot with 18.6335 of these per minute as cloak should cool down exactly as the reload animation has ended. This leads to 36818.8643 damage per minute or 613.6477damage per second.

This means that the Javelin has a 32.6414% damage per second gain over the Black Widow.

I would like to note that this mathematical experiment actually gives a handicap to the Black Widow by assuming that there is absolutely no time required to aim in between the 3 shots.  It also assumes that the target is not armored which results in 3x the damage loss to armor when compared to the Javelin as the flat damage reduction is applied to each shot individually.  It also completely ignores the fact that the Javelin has 4x the object-pierce-distance (1 meter for the Javelin with 0.25 meter for the Black Widow), and the fact that the Javelin has a built-in advanced scope 5 mod thus giving it the ability to see through anything it can shoot through, see cloaked mobs, and still have room for 2 more mods. Both of these are heavy tactical advantages.

Draw the conclusions that you want from this math.

Edited for formatting.

You didn't even take shield gates into account, not to mention many other practical restraints which would need to be considered in order for your math to be in any way practical and relevant. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 03 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[Dr Derp]

The BW kicks the javelin's ass in almost any scenario and is much more versatile. I just think that the OP overlooked some calculations and then ended up trying as hard as he could to defend it when there were clearly holes, nice try though

[Terraflare]

ZeroDivision wrote...

If you'd like I could debunk your claim?  After timing his BW reload-exploits he was able to cut off between 1.7 and 1.97 seconds of the reload animation each time.  That's an average of 1.8 seconds added to each iteration.  It took him 4 iterations bringing it to a total of 7.34 seconds gained. This means that it would have taken him 23.56 seconds with the black widow assuming no exploit.  He's also taking an average of 0.68 seconds (2 were over a second, 1 was very close) to fire the Javelin instead of the minimum 0.25 seconds. meaning that he lost 2.58 seconds.  Under ideal circumstances that puts the Javelin at 20.42 compared to a non-exploited BW at 23.56.   I've timed this (admittedly using a phone app) 20 total times to ensure a modicrum of accuracy.

This has proved one thing though.  In a practical situation a person skilled with the Black Widow and not as practiced with the Javelin will be better with the Black Widow.  Thus numbers don't mean everything as player skill cannot be accurately quantified as a number using any algorithm I know.


As an asside I would also like to point out that any animation besides the standard movement (even switching weapons, sprinting, or moving into cover) will cancel reload animations after the ammo number is iterated.  This means that you can very easily use the exploit with the Javelin as well, though not with the cloak bonus each time.

This is hilarious. This entire thread has been extremely entertaining for me and I hope for everyone else as well who has been along for the ride. 

Let me just summarise it for everyone who didnt read through the 4 pages of hilarity.

The OP began this thread with one purpose: To 'prove' in however way he could, that the Javelin "blew" the BW out of the water in terms of single target DPS. He has posted this in at least 2 other threads, stating that the BW "sucks" and is a "terrible gun" reserved solely for "silver and below". I could simply have let this go, but I felt the need to correct him because many new players might come across this false piece of "proof" and start training in a gun that is in more ways than 1, limited, compared to the BW. These guys will be my teammates in gold eventually. 

OP do you read what you are saying and realise how futile you sound? You continue to insist that close to 2 seconds were lost each cycle. From the video, you also do realise that taking 3 shots takes 2 seconds (please admit this), + one FULL reload at 2.97 seconds = 4.97 seconds, or 5 seconds. This has been accepted by SO many people its not even funny. Therefore the maximum time a BW will take = 4 cycles = 20 seconds. Sp3c7eR takes 16.22 seconds, or approx 4 seconds per cycle. I already mentioned that having 3 cloak shots fired with reload cancelling would = 4 seconds per cycle in a previous thread. You ignored it, or dismissed it as being an impossibility. His video just proved what I felt in my games. 

You continue to claim that the speed at which Sp3c7eR fires his javelin is not the fastest, however, for occasional shots (noticeably the first cycle), of his BW, he delays for a little too (he already admitted this, even missing out on one cloak shot). At the end of the day it does not matter, your point has been proven wrong, stop trying to make it sound as if they still stand (if so, post a video).

With current mechanics (reload cancelling), BW will consistently out DPS a single target, again something that I mentioned multiple times across multiple threads. Without it (if it gets removed, i doubt it will), the timings will be literally neck at neck. A person more comfortable with either weapon will be able to shave 1-2 seconds off in total, but my point still stands. ANY DIFFERENCE AT THIS LEVEL IS MEANINGLESS. 

Who cares if you take 20 seconds on a BW vs 21 seconds on a Javelin, or 19 seconds on a Javelin vs 20 on a BW? The whole POINT of my (and Sp3c7eR's, and many others') discussion is the debunk the myth that "Widow X/Javelin will take a single fat target down much faster than the BW". What the video (and everything I've said) proves it that the BW can do everything the Javelin/Widow X can do on single targets, with added flexibility of being able to deal with small mobs faster. 

For everyone in this thread reading it attempting to try and decide which weapon they should practice at here's the verdict, repeated for emphasis: 
the BW can do everything the Javelin/Widow X can do on single targets, with added flexibility of being able to deal with small mobs faster.  

Many above have posted saying they 'prefer' the Jav/Widow X over the BW. That's fine, use whatever gun suits you. Different situations/team compositions will make one gun more useful than the other. As mentioned, I have alot better experiences using Widow compared to BW against gold reapers, since with reapers you rarely have the stationary time to empty your clip. Moving most of the time, taking shots once in a while without sacrificing damage = Widow X. For Cerberus its not even a question. Phantoms are the ONLY problem, and BW will allow you to kill 1 each cycle. The Widow/Javelin will always take at least 2 cycles to kill a phantom even WITH energy drain. Geth Primes stagger (interrupting your BW cycle), but BW makes getting flanked by a hunter a non-issue. With a Widow, one hunter flank often means you are dead, or have to scramble to pick yourself up. 

So OP, continue holding on to your irrelevant data mined info. Every piece of info (both theoretical and justified) has been laid before you, if you choose not to look at it, no one can do anything. 

[SKiLLYWiLLY2]

hahaha zerodivision is fuming right now, mathematically of course.

Modifié par SKiLLYWiLLY2, 03 avril 2012 - 09:26 .

[Genesis Notch]

Figures and figures.

[golyoscsapagy]

Truth be told jav is a lot better against boss mobs if you don't glitch. Sure, reload glitching skyrockets BW, so I guess it all depends if they will fix this exploit or not. For the time being if you intend to do reload cancel, go with BW, it profits much more out of it.

I'm too lazy to find the post about it, but I calculated the guns performance against atlas. Jav wins in TTK, and by a lot 28s vs 34 iirc. This is mostly due to the fact that against all boss mobs shield damage bleed is next to nonexistant (ever thought about why atlas has 21094 shield? let me tell you, jav bleeds around 10 damage on it...) for javelin, and the 50 armor (which jav bypasses) is a lot of lost damage for BW.

So, if you will reload cancel, go with BW.
If you won't and intend to shoot big guys, use jav.

Anyway, does shield damage bleed affects biotic explosions at all? According to my understanding those do % based damage, and I seem to remember killing marauders and stuff with explosions (was too busy to notice, paired up with a DA and all). Anyway, you, as an infiltrator cannot match the speed with which an adept pair can kill trash. You do your team a favor if you focus on the big guys.

[Kozaro]

I've been looking at this thread and it's been funny. But seriously, OP, you can cling to your math as much as you like, the numbers, by themselves, mean absolutely nothing.

I actually don't understand the point of this thread... what does it gain you? Even if everybody would just look at pure numbers like you do, and agree that you are right, what does this gain you? Will the forums celebrate your genius or something? Will it make everyone forsake their BWs for the Mathematically-Superior Javelin? Will you go in to some forum hall of fame where you'll be recognized forever? Why do people have so much time on their hands that they mathematically dissect game mechanics for.. let's face it, no reason at all?

[Lexa_D]

So what's the reload cancelling again? When you start masking just before shooting?

Also, all this calculation is fine and dandy for the almost stationary targets, who by definition pose low threat - can't see you reliably shooting rushing brute or flanking a banshee with delayed Javelin, maybe when the latter is busy sticking its paws in someone's soft underbelly.

Also, mentioned here - BW gives you room for error, when your remaining 2 shots can still kill the shielded mob, while with Jav you're screwed.

[Wethospu]

Your gun gets reloaded before your reload animation finishes. So you simply interrupt reload animation (for example with cloak) once your gun is reloaded.