194 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraflare]

Lexa_D wrote...

So what's the reload cancelling again? When you start masking just before shooting?

Also, all this calculation is fine and dandy for the almost stationary targets, who by definition pose low threat - can't see you reliably shooting rushing brute or flanking a banshee with delayed Javelin, maybe when the latter is busy sticking its paws in someone's soft underbelly.

Also, mentioned here - BW gives you room for error, when your remaining 2 shots can still kill the shielded mob, while with Jav you're screwed.

There is a video on page 3 if you haven't watched it. Basically after emptying your clip, press R, watch your character, when the bullet in the chamber in the bottom left reflects "3" ie bullets have been chambered, doing any other action will interrupt the remaining bolt-pulling action shaving off ~2 seconds off your 3 second reload time. 

The video demonstrates use of it on the Black Widow, where the cloak recharge time syncs perfectly with your ability to use that as the 'canceller'. So Cloak > Fire 3 shots > Reload > Interrupt the reload after 1 second using cloak > Repeat. It makes for faster cycles on the BW and overall very high sustained DPS (as you see, Atlas downed in 16 seconds from time of first bullet.)

[HippyGiJoe]

Iv read everything since page 1, and have read all other threads by OP. I got a BW II and a Javelin I so i tested this my self. Javelin can be better than the BW in a few scenarios where mobs get funneld, usually better with geth since they are slower.

Really the BW is a better sniper all around, nobody can question this, and if you do then you are trolling.

The reload glitch/exploit has been there for a long time and by now is considered a part of the game, its not an exploit imo, its just a part of the game.

To OP, stop arguing over numbers and put a video so we can see this "superiority" of the javelin.

[Lexa_D]

edit: wrong thread

Modifié par Lexa_D, 03 avril 2012 - 11:36 .

[Lexa_D]

Terraflare wrote...

Lexa_D wrote...

So what's the reload cancelling again? When you start masking just before shooting?

Also, all this calculation is fine and dandy for the almost stationary targets, who by definition pose low threat - can't see you reliably shooting rushing brute or flanking a banshee with delayed Javelin, maybe when the latter is busy sticking its paws in someone's soft underbelly.

Also, mentioned here - BW gives you room for error, when your remaining 2 shots can still kill the shielded mob, while with Jav you're screwed.

There is a video on page 3 if you haven't watched it. Basically after emptying your clip, press R, watch your character, when the bullet in the chamber in the bottom left reflects "3" ie bullets have been chambered, doing any other action will interrupt the remaining bolt-pulling action shaving off ~2 seconds off your 3 second reload time. 

The video demonstrates use of it on the Black Widow, where the cloak recharge time syncs perfectly with your ability to use that as the 'canceller'. So Cloak > Fire 3 shots > Reload > Interrupt the reload after 1 second using cloak > Repeat. It makes for faster cycles on the BW and overall very high sustained DPS (as you see, Atlas downed in 16 seconds from time of first bullet.)

Yes, saw it all, thanx a lot! So it's much like melee-reloading Claymore in ME2. 

[MysticFred]

Wha? Where'd everyone go? I still have half a bucket of popcorn left

[ZeroDivision]

 Ok, one final mathematical comparison.

Since people are constantly bringing up reload canceling with the Black Widow as a comparison point I thought I'd factor it in on this comparison. I would like to note, as I have many times before, that you can cancel any reload animation on any gun by performing any animation other than the standard walking animations. This means sprinting, rolling, ducking into our out of cover, swapping weapons, or using any power to name a few. You simply have to trigger a non-walking animation exactly after the ammo iterates over on the display. For the Javelin, the most efficient way to do this seems to be as follows: Position yourself infront of cover.  Cloak-Fire and then cancel the reload animation by entering into cover. Fire again and then reload canceling the animation with cloak. Repeat this process.  Note that this will not give you cloak-enhanced damage on every shot.

For the sake of time, simplicity of the math, and the fact that cloak is the only common demoninator between all infiltrators I will only be using reload-canceling and cloak-damage-enhancements as variables outside the guns themselves. This experiment will feature flat DPS calculations, TtK on an Atlas, and TtK on a Geth Hunter as well as damage lost through shield-gating and armor reduction and damage lost through overkill. The Atlas and Geth Hunter were chosen because the health/armor/shield values are readily available to all through the multiplayer balance thread.  Both guns will be assumed at rank 1. Headshot multipliers (used on the Geth Hunter) will be assumed at a 2.5 multiplier as posted by an individual in this thread. Cloak damage multipliers will be assumed 2.3 (1.0+0.5+0.4+0.4) based on taking the additional sniper rifle damage point from cloak. Reload-cancel-times and average times in between shots will be using Specter, I hope he doesn't mind, as the base for the Black Widow, and my team's sniper as the base for the Javelin. Given the wide-spread availability of spare thermal clips and the ease-of-access to ammo crates on most levels we will assume that ammo isn't a problem. It is important to note that both the Javelin and the Black Widow have the same number of spare reloads even though the Black Widow has a higher actual ammo count.

Now, on to the basic DPS calculations.

Black Widow: 
Damage per Shot - 514.1 
Cloak Damage per Shot - 1182.43 (514.1 * 2.3) 
Time Inbetween Shots - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Reload Time - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Total Iteration - 3.45 ((1.15 * 2) + 1.15) 
Total Iterations per Minute - 17.3913 (60 / 3.45) 
Total Damage per Iteration - 3547.29 (1182.43 * 3) 
Total Damage in a Minute - 61691.9846 (3547.29 * 17.3913) 
Optimum Damage per Second - 1028.1997 (61691.9846 / 60) 

Javelin: 
Damage per shot - 1030.5 
Cloak Damage per Shot - 2370.15 (1030.5 * 2.3) 
Time Before Shots - 0.36 (based on our sniper) 
Reload Time - 1.18 (based on our sniper) 
Time Inbetween Shots - 1.54 (1.18 + 0.36) 
Total Iteration - 3.08 (1.54 * 2) 
Total Iterations per Minute - 19.4805 (60 / 3.08) 
Total Damager per Iteration - 3400.65 (1030.5 + 2370.15) 
Total Damage per Minute - 66246.3623 (3400.65 * 19.4805) 
Optimum Damage per Second - 1104.106 (66246.3623 / 60) 

In a perfect situation the Javelin wins the DPS race by 75.9063 or 7.3824%. Obviously this perfect situation is extremely unlikely to ever actually occur, so lets compare these guns against the aforementioned mobs.


Lets start with the Geth Hunter:

For the sake of consistency lets assume that every shot is a headshot.

Health - 2025 
Shields - 2278 

Black Widow: 
Headshot Damage - 2956.075 (1182.43 * 2.5) 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 678.075 (2956.075 - 2287) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 931.075 (2956.075 - 2025) 
Total Damage Lost - 1609.15 
Time to Kill - 2.30 (2 * 1.15) 

Javelin: 
First Headshot Damage - 5935.375 (2370.15 * 2.5) 
Second Headshot Damage - 2576.25 (1030.5 * 2.5) 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 3647.375 (5935.375 - 2278) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 551.25 (2576.25 - 2025) 
Total Damage Lost - 4198.625 (3647.375 + 551.25) 
Time to Kill - 3.08 (1.54 * 2) 

Quite obviously the Black Widow is far more efficient at killing smaller mobs. It kills a Geth Hunter 25.3247% faster with 61.6744% less damage lost to the shield-gate and overkill while still having a round in the breach for a third shot on a different target.


Next lets compare against the Atlas:

For the sake of consistency we'll assume that every shot is to the main cockpit and thus does normal damage.

Armor - 21094 
Shields - 21094 

Black Widow: 
Damage to Armor - 1132.43 (1182.43 - 50) 
Total Damage to Armor per Iteration - 3397.29 (1132.43 * 3) 
Iterations to Drop Shields - 5.9465 (21094 / 3547.29) 
Iterations to Drop Armor - 6.209 (21094 / 3397.29) 
Shot that Drops Shields - 3 (3 * 0.9456) *rounded 
Shot that Drops Armor - 1 (3 * 0.209) *rounded 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 189.78 (3547.29 - (3547.29 * 0.9465)) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 710.1046 ((0.209 / (1 / 3)) * 1132.43) 
Damage Lost to Armor - 931.35 (6.209 * (50 * 3)) 
Total Damage Lost - 1832.2346 (189.78 +710.1046 + 931.35) 
Time to Kill - 41.9342 (((5.9465 * 60) / 17.3913) + ((6.209 * 60) / 17.3913)) 

Javelin: 
First Shot Damage to Armor - 2320.15 (2370.15 - 50) 
Second Shot Damage to Armor - 980.5 (1030.5 - 50) 
Total Damage to Armor per Iteration - 3300.65 (2320.15 + 980.5) 
Iterations to Drop Shields - 6.2029 (21094 / 3400.65) 
Iterations to Drop Armor - 6.3908 (21094 / 3300.65) 
Shot that Drops Shields - 1 ((1 - 0.2029) < (2370.15 / 3400.65)) 
Shot that Drops Armor - 1 ((1 - 0.3908) < (2320.15 / 3300.65)) 
Damage Lost to Shield-Gate - 1171.0192 (((2370.15 / 3400.65) - 0.2029) * 2370.15) 
Damage Lost to Overkill - 724.2053(((2320.15 / 3300.65) - 0.3908) * 2320.15) 
Damage Lost to Armor - 639.08 (6.3908 * (50 * 2)) 
Total Damage Lost - 2534.3045 (1171.0192 +724.2053 + 639.08) 
Time to Kill - 38.7886 (((6.2029 * 60) / 19.4805) + ((6.3908 * 60) / 19.4805)) 

From this we can see that The Javelin is faster by 3.1456 seconds or 8.1096% at killing the Atlas while the Black Widow loses702.0699 or 27.7027% less damage due to overkill, shield gating, and armor reduction.  In practical situations, time to kill is all that really matters on large targets putting the Javelin ahead on large targets by roughly 8%.

That being said, the Black Widow was close.  It is also important to note that the Black Widow will have 2 rounds left in its clip after finishing off this Atlas whereas the Javelin could do this through wall(s), the floor (in the case of multi-tier stages), and cover. It comes down to this:  As a do-it-all rifle the Black Widow wins due to the speed and efficiency of handling small targets.  As a boss hunter the Javelin wins based on the time taken to drop them.  The Black Widow favors a more aggressive combat style through it's multi-shot capability and lighter weight while the Javelin favors a more defensive style due to it's object-penetration capabilities and shorter (though not by much) time out of cover. My team's sniper does recommend bringing a side-arm along with your Javelin when using it due to the inefficiency when dealing with small targets.  He favors a Mattock 10.  I would also like to mention that due to the cooldown mechanics of Cloak when using a Cloak->Immediatly-Fire combo weight doesn't matter. You will have the same cooldown with a Javelin + Claymore as you will with a Carnifex pistol. This has been tested and verified by many individuals other than myself.

Before you bring Specter's video back into this I'd like to point out that it's comparing an exquisitely handled Black Widow to a non-optimally handled Javelin.  This is not his fault as he obviously favors the Black Widow and has quite a bit more practice with it.

Feel free to point out any mathematical errors in this comparison, though I know you would regardless of this statement.

[SKiLLYWiLLY2]

lol

[xephyris]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Before you bring Specter's video back into this I'd like to point out that it's comparing an exquisitely handled Black Widow to a non-optimally handled Javelin.  This is not his fault as he obviously favors the Black Widow and has quite a bit more practice with it.

He handled both guns with equal proficiency. How would you more optimally handle the Javelin?

Modifié par xephyris, 03 avril 2012 - 04:49 .

[Keldaurz]

Kozaro wrote...

I've been looking at this thread and it's been funny. But seriously, OP, you can cling to your math as much as you like, the numbers, by themselves, mean absolutely nothing.

I actually don't understand the point of this thread... what does it gain you? Even if everybody would just look at pure numbers like you do, and agree that you are right, what does this gain you? Will the forums celebrate your genius or something? Will it make everyone forsake their BWs for the Mathematically-Superior Javelin? Will you go in to some forum hall of fame where you'll be recognized forever? Why do people have so much time on their hands that they mathematically dissect game mechanics for.. let's face it, no reason at all?

While we all had some fun with the OP's attitude, I don't have any problem with theorycrafting (and some people, actually have fun while doing it, so please, stop being condescent about how people have fun to begin with), but people should always know it's just a tool. For example here time exposure is also important, damage per cycle instead of overall damage, how spread is that damage, overkilling damage lost, etc, etc, etc.

The post wasn't to tell which weapon is the best (sometimes, it's situational), but what each weapon brings to the table. Widow X gives you less expossure time, exchanging it for the ability to deal effectively with lesser minions or shielded ones which you can't take down on a single cloak cycle. Same can be said be said for the Javelin, but contrary to popular belief, they don't more damage per cloak cycle than a BW (i don't talk about the Valiant, since i don't have it), even on big mobs.

And it isn't true. BW mops the floor with them if you want to look at raw numbers (which was the only thing the OP had been doing the whole time while dismissing constructive feedback and criticism about his arguments). That's why i say theorycrafting is always a tool, if it doesn't match feelings in-game, normally it's because something on that theorycrafting is wrong, and not otherwise like the OP had been trying to expose the whole time.

That being said, i don't have any problem using 2 cloakedshots sometimes instead of the 3 (whenever i can squeeze 3, i do also of course, but on gold, as Terra said, it isn't something you can always do), i actually know my damage is on par with others snipers with only 2 cloakedshots (again, i don't know about the valiant, and i don't dare to speak about it before testing it), they are enough to kill most cloaked opponents a widow/javelin can't on one cycle anyways, and thats about it. And since the reload trick had been confirmed as something in-game, i don't have a little doubt about it.

That's why i personally i prefer the BW over other the rest, and since i like to play random race on random maps, i don't try to adjust the weapon i bring depending on the opponent race, so i bring the most flexible sniper (again, can't speak for the valiant, i guess at this point you guys realize i want it badly to test it ). Of course, gold can be completed by any of those, so you enjoy the gameplay on others snipers more, the hell why not. Just don't do like the OP and dismiss the BW and say it sucks just for the sake of it.

[Keldaurz]

the Javelin favors a more defensive style due to it's object-penetration capabilities and shorter (though not by much) time out of cover. My team's sniper does recommend bringing a side-arm along with your Javelin when using it due to the inefficiency when dealing with small targets. He favors a Mattock 10

Go ingame. Frap it. Upload it.

[ZeroDivision]

xephyris wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Before you bring Specter's video back into this I'd like to point out that it's comparing an exquisitely handled Black Widow to a non-optimally handled Javelin.  This is not his fault as he obviously favors the Black Widow and has quite a bit more practice with it.

He handled both guns with equal proficiency. How would you more optimally handle the Javelin?

Please read the full post before replying. I state how he could have used it optimally in the first paragraph. By his own words he was using the cloak to greatly shorten the charge-time before firing. Cutting out a max of 0.25 seconds pales in comparison to cutting out a max of 1.97 seconds. 

[xephyris]

I did read your first paragraph, and do not agree that it is more optimal. It requires that you always be in cover, which is not a luxury that you always have in Gold. The way he handles both rifles in the video is consistent no matter the situation.

Modifié par xephyris, 03 avril 2012 - 05:01 .

[phantom121294]

Ok, ok, ok, while math is good and all, your all forgetting one thing,
The black widow.......is the black widow.
/thred.

[Crimson-Engage]

Javelin > All

I run Jav using Human soldier so i can get two shots off really quickly. Sooo.... yeaaaaaa. Take your overated Black Widow and shove it up your asses.

[CaliGuy033]

Twisted and Mean wrote...

The "damage per second" concept, applied to anything other than hack and slash RPGs or mumorpugers with their long boss fights, is utterly wrong and meaningless.

Here, I have deconstructed the original post with one sentence.

This.  /thread

[ZeroDivision]

Keldaurz wrote...

the Javelin favors a more defensive style due to it's object-penetration capabilities and shorter (though not by much) time out of cover. My team's sniper does recommend bringing a side-arm along with your Javelin when using it due to the inefficiency when dealing with small targets. He favors a Mattock 10

Go ingame. Frap it. Upload it.

Here's why I won't be doing that:
1 - My Javelin is 3 whereas my BW is 1, and our sniper's javelin is 5 whereas his BW is 2. This doesn't make for a fair comparison.
2 - Both myself and our sniper are leagues more practiced with the Javelin than the Black Widow. This would result in a much more skewed result than needed regardless of the gun ranks.
3 - I do not own fraps, and will not be buying it simply to provide skewed videos.
4 - Math is much more telling and balanced.

[Keldaurz]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

the Javelin favors a more defensive style due to it's object-penetration capabilities and shorter (though not by much) time out of cover. My team's sniper does recommend bringing a side-arm along with your Javelin when using it due to the inefficiency when dealing with small targets. He favors a Mattock 10

Go ingame. Frap it. Upload it.

Here's why I won't be doing that:
1 - My Javelin is 3 whereas my BW is 1, and our sniper's javelin is 5 whereas his BW is 2. This doesn't make for a fair comparison.
2 - Both myself and our sniper are leagues more practiced with the Javelin than the Black Widow. This would result in a much more skewed result than needed regardless of the gun ranks.
3 - I do not own fraps, and will not be buying it simply to provide skewed videos.
4 - Math is much more telling and balanced.

It doesn't really matter, you actually got Sp3c3rz video with the timing on a Atlas as reference. So you don't need to learn to reload clip with cloak.

Just do your kill with the javelin 3 and same consumables ( the difference shouldn't be bigger than 3-4% on speed kill time), and we can see it, and also understand what you meant when you said he didn't used it to it's highest potential, which maybe i am wrong an give us some interesting knowledge to learn.

4 - No. If math doesn't match in-game it isn't telling and neither is balanced. It's like saying A of a triangle is height * height since that's how we found it on ancient math writings, but on reality we see it's height * (insert whatever word you use on english for this), but you still argue about it.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 03 avril 2012 - 05:13 .

[Terraflare]

Terraflare wrote...

the BW can do everything the Javelin/Widow X can do on single targets, with added flexibility of being able to deal with small mobs faster. 

Hi, do you agree with this? 

[ZeroDivision]

Keldaurz wrote...

It doesn't really matter, you actually got Sp3c3rz video with the timing on a Atlas as reference. So you don't need to learn to reload clip with cloak.

Just do your kill with the javelin 3 and same consumables ( the difference shouldn't be bigger than 3-4% on speed kill time), and we can see it, and also understand what you meant when you said he didn't used it to it's highest potential, which maybe i am wrong an give us some interesting knowledge to learn.

4 - No. If math doesn't match in-game it isn't telling and neither is balanced. It's like saying A of a triangle is height * height since that's how we found it on ancient math writings, but on reality we see it's height * (insert whatever word you use on english for this), but you still argue about it.

If you are willing to pay for a copy of Fraps I'll be more than willing to record one for you.

Please point out where my most recent post doesn't match in-game on the comparison portion or where the math is just wrong. I'll be more than happy to clarify or fix it.

[ZeroDivision]

Terraflare wrote...

Terraflare wrote...

the BW can do everything the Javelin/Widow X can do on single targets, with added flexibility of being able to deal with small mobs faster. 

Hi, do you agree with this? 

Only part. It is slower on large targets, but is indeed faster and more efficient on small targets. As to things it cannot do to single targets compared to the Javelin: it's slower, cannot hunt them safely through walls, and cannot damage them safely through walls. As to the Widow propper both the Black Widow and Javelin outclass it by far.

Edit - I want to point out that I have not once said that the Black Widow was worse on small targets or that the Javelin is better in every way. If you interpreted any of my posts that way I'm sorry. I did, however, expressly state that it is the opinion, of both myself and the rest of my team, that a sniper is better suited using his rifle on large targets.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 03 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[deadpixel92]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

the Javelin favors a more defensive style due to it's object-penetration capabilities and shorter (though not by much) time out of cover. My team's sniper does recommend bringing a side-arm along with your Javelin when using it due to the inefficiency when dealing with small targets. He favors a Mattock 10

Go ingame. Frap it. Upload it.

Here's why I won't be doing that:
1 - My Javelin is 3 whereas my BW is 1, and our sniper's javelin is 5 whereas his BW is 2. This doesn't make for a fair comparison.
2 - Both myself and our sniper are leagues more practiced with the Javelin than the Black Widow. This would result in a much more skewed result than needed regardless of the gun ranks.
3 - I do not own fraps, and will not be buying it simply to provide skewed videos.
4 - Math is much more telling and balanced.

Sure, is easier to write crap in a forum, i dont care about your Math dude, i read all your posts and stayed quiet but this nonsense have to stop, you are missing something very important.. SKILL stop telling people this is the best sniper in the game just because it have the highest DPS, i can do much better with a Widow, BW even with a Valiant than you can do with your Javelin and the only factor is SKILL not NUMBERS, talk about math all you want that wont change who is the best and most efficient player at the end. This is just a game, just have fun with it, you dont have to create this kind of threads to prove you know everything about this game and thats exactly what the point of this thread is.

For every new player on this game that is reading this dont listen to the man, play with the weapon you like, weapons stats dont mean anything, just learn how to use your gun in the most efficient way and just have fun. Trust me

NOTE: dont reply this with another post full of crap, THINK and then write.

[Terraflare]

 

ZeroDivision
wrote...


The BW is indeed a bad sniper compared to the
Widow, Valiant, and Javelin. It is inferior to the javelin and Valiant in DPS,
vastly inferior to the Javelin and Widow in stopping power, and is generally
terrible above silver unless your whole play style is to abuse glitches with
animations and the aim-assist on the console version.

ZeroDivision
wrote...





I'm starting to think that the reason people like
the BW at all is due to the fact that the vast majority of people only play on
bronze or silver with completely random strangers which is where it shines. In
a structured, skilled team on Gold it loses a lot of it's steam and is
overtaken by the Widow and destroyed by the Javelin. I'd wager that when, if,
more of the community moves into gold you'll see less people defending it.

Still think so?

[Keldaurz]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

It doesn't really matter, you actually got Sp3c3rz video with the timing on a Atlas as reference. So you don't need to learn to reload clip with cloak.

Just do your kill with the javelin 3 and same consumables ( the difference shouldn't be bigger than 3-4% on speed kill time), and we can see it, and also understand what you meant when you said he didn't used it to it's highest potential, which maybe i am wrong an give us some interesting knowledge to learn.

4 - No. If math doesn't match in-game it isn't telling and neither is balanced. It's like saying A of a triangle is height * height since that's how we found it on ancient math writings, but on reality we see it's height * (insert whatever word you use on english for this), but you still argue about it.

If you are willing to pay for a copy of Fraps I'll be more than willing to record one for you.

Please point out where my most recent post doesn't match in-game on the comparison portion or where the math is just wrong. I'll be more than happy to clarify or fix it.

There's already a posted video which shows how a BW destroys an atlas on 16s and a Javelin on 22s, while your numbers said it would take 41s to BW and 39s for the Javelin. You can even reverse-engineer if needed because both are II weapons, warp ammo 3 and i think amp rail sniper 3, which anyways, following your math shouldn't get close to that fast kills.

I am pretty sure if you wanted to really show your numbers are correct, you would find a way to frap it

[Canasian81]

ZeroDivision wrote...

 Ok, one final mathematical comparison.

Oh the hubris...

I'm thinking of two words at the moment, idealogue and narcissism, in no particular order of course.

Are you capable of admitting you're wrong or you've made misleading claims.  Subjective reasoning is just that, subjective.

I participated in a similar humbling experience this morning.  Getting out of bed I looked in the mirror and proclaimed to be "the sexiest man alive".  My girlfriend rebuked and said "if that were the case you'd be on the cover of People, you wouldn't brag about owning a sedan and I wouldn't have to work".  I promptly retracted my statement and retreated back to bed assuming the fetal position under the sheets.

Apologies to anyone on the forums who still think I'm the sexiest man alive, I may have misled you during our late night co-op games.  However, until further notice, my other delusions of grandeur remain intact.

[Khevan77]

There is a large flaw in the logic of relying solely on mathematics. Mathematics can only produce answers from a given set of conditions, and it's prohibitively difficult to account for every variance or variable that can occur.

In other words, real life events, such as needing to run because a Phantom is keen on sticking her sword up your pooper, or suddenly realizing a Geth Hunter is shooting you in the back of the head, or simple enemy movements (like rolling just as you pull the trigger...) all of this affects the damage per second, and fudges up the numbers that are so neatly laid out according to pure mathematics.

Math is theory, using the weapons in game is reality. Reality will always trump theory when comparing effectiveness of any particular system.