194 réponses à ce sujet

[ZeroDivision]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 So... I rummaged through some of my footage from yesterday and found something curious, and before ZeroDivision declares it invalid I hasten to add - it is not a perfect kill. Yet notice what happens to the 6th shot of the Black Widow:

Shield Gating? Where is it?

And yes, this test scored a time of 15.25 seconds. Could be better as I was a little thrown by the body jerk animation of the Atlas, but hey these things happen. Only people with link will be able to see video.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's silver.  Considering the fact that you dealt a visually significant higher percentage of damage per cycle to the Atlas. A single cycle brought its sheild below half whereas in your other video the first cycle left it well above half.

[Sp3c7eR]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 So... I rummaged through some of my footage from yesterday and found something curious, and before ZeroDivision declares it invalid I hasten to add - it is not a perfect kill. Yet notice what happens to the 6th shot of the Black Widow:

Shield Gating? Where is it?

And yes, this test scored a time of 15.25 seconds. Could be better as I was a little thrown by the body jerk animation of the Atlas, but hey these things happen. Only people with link will be able to see video.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's silver.  Considering the fact that you dealt a visually significant higher percentage of damage per cycle to the Atlas. A single cycle brought its sheild below half whereas in your other video the first cycle left it well above half.

That's why when I press escape near the end of the video it says Cerberus Wave 5 Gold. LOL! Do you actually look at videos before you post or do you just follow your own agenda and post the same thing regardless of what you've seen?

I think I explained in my earlier posts that it's possible to take down an Atlas with 1 less shot from Black Widow. Also explained that in the first video, 1st cloak cycle doesn't extend bonus damage to 3rd shot, which is corrected in this latest video and as you can see the damage is consistent throughout - every shot deals 2 bars of armor/shield.

I think it's pretty obvious.

[ZeroDivision]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 So... I rummaged through some of my footage from yesterday and found something curious, and before ZeroDivision declares it invalid I hasten to add - it is not a perfect kill. Yet notice what happens to the 6th shot of the Black Widow:

Shield Gating? Where is it?

And yes, this test scored a time of 15.25 seconds. Could be better as I was a little thrown by the body jerk animation of the Atlas, but hey these things happen. Only people with link will be able to see video.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's silver.  Considering the fact that you dealt a visually significant higher percentage of damage per cycle to the Atlas. A single cycle brought its sheild below half whereas in your other video the first cycle left it well above half.

That's why when I press escape near the end of the video it says Cerberus Wave 5 Gold. LOL! Do you actually look at videos before you post or do you just follow your own agenda and post the same thing regardless of what you've seen?

I think I explained in my earlier posts that it's possible to take down an Atlas with 1 less shot from Black Widow. Also explained that in the first video, 1st cloak cycle doesn't extend bonus damage to 3rd shot, which is corrected in this latest video and as you can see the damage is consistent throughout - every shot deals 2 bars of armor/shield.

I think it's pretty obvious.

I stand corrected.

I honestly felt no need to watch past the portion where you killed the atlas.

That being said, this brings up some interesting questions.

1 - Why did you deal significantly more damage in the first cycle on this new video than on the previously posted one?  You're consistently shooting for the canopy in both.
2 - If shield-gating doesn't apply in certain situations, what are the parameters that bring this about?

[Berserku]

ZeroDivision wrote...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's silver.  Considering the fact that you dealt a visually significant higher percentage of damage per cycle to the Atlas. A single cycle brought its sheild below half whereas in your other video the first cycle left it well above half.

People can be so stubborn...
Gold, clearly shows at the end of the video... geez...

[ZeroDivision]

Berserku wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's silver.  Considering the fact that you dealt a visually significant higher percentage of damage per cycle to the Atlas. A single cycle brought its sheild below half whereas in your other video the first cycle left it well above half.

People can be so stubborn...
Gold, clearly shows at the end of the video... geez...

People can be unobservant as well, Read the post above yours.

[LeTtRrZ]

 Yes the jav is better in the mathmatics, but one shot is one shot.  In the time it takes for a jav to kill an infantry unit and reload, the black widow can take out 3 infantry units.

[Sp3c7eR]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Shield Gating? Where is it?

I think I explained in my earlier posts that it's possible to take down an Atlas with 1 less shot from Black Widow. Also explained that in the first video, 1st cloak cycle doesn't extend bonus damage to 3rd shot, which is corrected in this latest video and as you can see the damage is consistent throughout - every shot deals 2 bars of armor/shield.

I think it's pretty obvious.

1 - Why did you deal significantly more damage in the first cycle on this new video than on the previously posted one?  You're consistently shooting for the canopy in both.
2 - If shield-gating doesn't apply in certain situations, what are the parameters that bring this about?

I will highlight the portion of the post you quoted which answers your first question.

2nd question: I don't know. Speculation: Large targets may have lower shield gate effect (meaning not 100%). Or large targets' shield gate may only apply after regenerating shield following previous damage. Don't really know. This is the first time I noticed it.

[ZeroDivision]

LeTtRrZ wrote...

 Yes the jav is better in the mathmatics, but one shot is one shot.  In the time it takes for a jav to kill an infantry unit and reload, the black widow can take out 3 infantry units.

This is correct, and I have provided a mathematical proof of this a few pages back.  You might note that the origional post has a paragraph at the beginning stating the premise of this thread and the reason for this premise.

[LeTtRrZ]

ZeroDivision wrote...


This is correct, and I have provided a mathematical proof of this a few pages back.  You might note that the origional post has a paragraph at the beginning stating the premise of this thread and the reason for this premise.

Sorry I missed this.  Thanks for letting me know.

[KadianK]

deadpixel92 wrote...

Sure, is easier to write crap in a forum, i dont care about your Math dude, i read all your posts and stayed quiet but this nonsense have to stop, you are missing something very important.. SKILL stop telling people this is the best sniper in the game just because it have the highest DPS, i can do much better with a Widow, BW even with a Valiant than you can do with your Javelin and the only factor is SKILL not NUMBERS, talk about math all you want that wont change who is the best and most efficient player at the end. This is just a game, just have fun with it, you dont have to create this kind of threads to prove you know everything about this game and thats exactly what the point of this thread is.

For every new player on this game that is reading this dont listen to the man, play with the weapon you like, weapons stats dont mean anything, just learn how to use your gun in the most efficient way and just have fun. Trust me

NOTE: dont reply this with another post full of crap, THINK and then write.

Agreed. It's got nothing to do with the numbers. It's about the players prefrences, I prefer the BW over the Javelin merely because I feel I play better with it, and I prefer the 3 rounds per round instead of 1 and 0.25 charge time.

But, I totally agree. It's all about the Skill of the player.
If you miss with a BW it's no biggy, you miss with a Javelin, you have to wait another 3 - 5 seconds before doing anything again.

[ZeroDivision]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Shield Gating? Where is it?

I think I explained in my earlier posts that it's possible to take down an Atlas with 1 less shot from Black Widow. Also explained that in the first video, 1st cloak cycle doesn't extend bonus damage to 3rd shot, which is corrected in this latest video and as you can see the damage is consistent throughout - every shot deals 2 bars of armor/shield.

I think it's pretty obvious.

1 - Why did you deal significantly more damage in the first cycle on this new video than on the previously posted one?  You're consistently shooting for the canopy in both.
2 - If shield-gating doesn't apply in certain situations, what are the parameters that bring this about?

I will highlight the portion of the post you quoted which answers your first question.

2nd question: I don't know. Speculation: Large targets may have lower shield gate effect (meaning not 100%). Or large targets' shield gate may only apply after regenerating shield following previous damage. Don't really know. This is the first time I noticed it.

Thanks again.  As my last 2 replies to you have proven,  I really shouldn't attempt to hold a forum conversation while cooking food.  I apologize and will be back in a few mintues when my food is done.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 03 avril 2012 - 10:33 .

[Keldaurz]

double

Modifié par Keldaurz, 03 avril 2012 - 10:44 .

[Keldaurz]

Keldaurz wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Shield Gating? Where is it?

I think I explained in my earlier posts that it's possible to take down an Atlas with 1 less shot from Black Widow. Also explained that in the first video, 1st cloak cycle doesn't extend bonus damage to 3rd shot, which is corrected in this latest video and as you can see the damage is consistent throughout - every shot deals 2 bars of armor/shield.

I think it's pretty obvious.

1 - Why did you deal significantly more damage in the first cycle on this new video than on the previously posted one?  You're consistently shooting for the canopy in both.
2 - If shield-gating doesn't apply in certain situations, what are the parameters that bring this about?

I will highlight the portion of the post you quoted which answers your first question.

2nd question: I don't know. Speculation: Large targets may have lower shield gate effect (meaning not 100%). Or large targets' shield gate may only apply after regenerating shield following previous damage. Don't really know. This is the first time I noticed it.

That had been stated before on game mechanichs i think, if your target is armor based + shield, some of the piercing mod damage will do damage to the target after the shield bleeds because how damage isn't exactly dealt at the same time. For example if you have disruptor ammo, the ammo will do damage before the bullet, if that ammo is enough damage to break a shield (people already tested this on MP to be able to "one cycle" geth hunters withouth a BW), your weapon will do it's full damage against the health. Correct me if i am wrong, but it's the only valid explanation i find for it.

Yet i don't know if it was the ammo removing the shield, or the piercing mod extra damage. Meh, no clue, surely someone with more knowledge about this can come with something up.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 03 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[MartialArtsSurfer]

Sp3c7eR wrote...
Shield Gating? Where is it?

Disruptor ammo damage(as well as other ammo buffs) is applied first & separately against shields before other damage & makes it possible to 1-shot kill enemies that have shields --in effect, the disruptor ammo acts as the 1st hit becuase it surrounds your bullet & thus hits first, and then your bullet damage is applied next.

Warp ammo also is applied 1st & separately too against barriers.

All ammo powers/equipment is applied multiplicatively instead of just additively, which makes it very powerful. Also note that the sniper buff damage of rank 6 evolution Tactical Cloak is also applied multiplicatively to base damage instead of just additively like most other powers.  This makes them very powerful.

Peddrolz does actual testing in-game as well as data-mining (all stats & charts linked also), instead of just hypothetical abstract 'what should be' in idealized hypothetical perfect situations that aren't reflected in real-life/in-game, which gave surprising results

the actual damage formulas are linked to in the thread below (also linked in my sig)

on Gold, it's possible to 1-shot kill shielded enemies up to phantoms & hunter with disruptor ammo(for shields) & warp(for barriers) & energy drain -- or 1-shot kill Barriered enemies with Warp ammo -- IF you also get the power damage evolutions on Energy Drain & STG Operative.

1 Shot Kills Threads on Gold w/ Snipe + Energy DRain:
- Punching the numbers: trying to identify (GOLD) EnergyDrain breakpoints

P.S. ZeroDivision, it's great that you use data-mining & math but you have to update your math models with real-world data instead of clinging to models that don't reflect actual gameplay

it's already been posted several times that Bioware devs use reload canceling themselves & posted how to do it! they said they have no plans to change it.

Both are great guns.. but to say that Jav is vastly superior to BW is not reflected in actual gameplay. (I have Jav 2 & BW 1 & Widow X)

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 03 avril 2012 - 11:24 .

[Trix-Rabbit]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Trix-Rabbit wrote...

Still waiting for a realistic comparison between the 4 main sniper rifles.(mantis/widow/bw/valiant) hell you can even throw the jav in there if you want.

which includes Prox Mine and Energy Drain. And being able to spam them more often+not having to take the SR weight reduction certain weapons.

Unfortunately not every Infiltrator race or spec has Proxy Mine or Energy Drain. The purpose of a class based weapon comparison is to compare weapons with only the factors common between all variations of the class, not to decide which weapon is better for which spec or which race does more or less damage with its powers based on the weapon used.

Other than for looks, there is no reason to play anything but an SI if you have one, period.

No other class offers the survivability, damage, or dmg buffing power of the SI, not to mention Tech Explosions.

So your premise is flawed on that alone.  Lets also not forget that SI is the only infiltrator witha 30% reduction in SR weight if you want it.   If you have one there is no reason to not use it.  QI is generally acceptable however on Geth farming with the sabotage CC, but far behind the SI anywhere else.  I dont even need math to tell you that.

[ZeroDivision]

MartialArtsSurfer wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...
Shield Gating? Where is it?

Disruptor ammo damage(as well as other ammo buffs) is applied first & separately against shields before other damage & makes it possible to 1-shot kill enemies that have shields --in effect, the disruptor ammo acts as the 1st hit becuase it surrounds your bullet & thus hits first, and then your bullet damage is applied next.

Warp ammo also is applied 1st & separately too against barriers.

All ammo powers/equipment is applied multiplicatively instead of just additively, which makes it very powerful. Also note that the sniper buff damage of rank 6 evolution Tactical Cloak is also applied multiplicatively to base damage instead of just additively like most other powers.  This makes them very powerful.

Peddrolz does actual testing in-game as well as data-mining (all stats & charts linked also), instead of just hypothetical abstract 'what should be' in idealized hypothetical perfect situations that aren't reflected in real-life/in-game, which gave surprising results

the actual damage formulas are linked to in the thread below (also linked in my sig)

on Gold, it's possible to 1-shot kill shielded enemies up to phantoms & hunter with disruptor ammo & enery drain

1 Shot Kills Threads on Gold w/ Snipe + Energy DRain:
- Punching the numbers: trying to identify (GOLD) EnergyDrain breakpoints

P.S. ZeroDivision, it's great that you use data-mining & math but you have to update your math models with real-world data instead of clinging to models that don't reflect actual gameplay

it's already been posted several times that Bioware devs use reload canceling themselves & posted how to do it! they said they have no plans to change it

Thanks a lot for this informative post.  I'm probably going to update the OP with the comparison I did a couple of pages back as it uses data gathered from real-world tests as well as taking into account shield-gating as well as overkill and reload canceling.

[Sp3c7eR]

MartialArtsSurfer wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...
Shield Gating? Where is it?

Disruptor ammo damage(as well as other ammo buffs) is applied first & separately against shields before other damage & makes it possible to 1-shot kill enemies that have shields --in effect, the disruptor ammo acts as the 1st hit becuase it surrounds your bullet & thus hits first, and then your bullet damage is applied next.

Warp ammo also is applied 1st & separately too against barriers.

I use warp ammo III in that video and you can understand why I didn't go for this obvious explanation. 1st point would be Warp ammo does nothing vs shields, we can all agree on that. 2nd, I know about 1 shotting phantoms with ED, I figured it out a while ago when I was doing solo gold in the ME3 demo - the difference is Disruptor has damage bonus vs shields and barriers, which will make sense if Warp was the same. But it's not... so bypassing that remaining shield on the Atlas to deal direct armor damage is still a mystery. And 1 bar of shield on an Atlas can mean 10, 20, 50 or even a 1000 shield left... no way of knowing exactly how much. Problem is, 1 bar of Atlas shield is half the BW damage per shot. You can see I deal 2 shield bars of damage with every shot. An ammo power like Warp, even if it were effective against shields, which it isn't , wouldn't account for half the damage of the shot. Wouldn't make sense...

So I'm still puzzled.

[MartialArtsSurfer]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

MartialArtsSurfer wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...
Shield Gating? Where is it?

Disruptor ammo damage(as well as other ammo buffs) is applied first & separately against shields before other damage & makes it possible to 1-shot kill enemies that have shields --in effect, the disruptor ammo acts as the 1st hit becuase it surrounds your bullet & thus hits first, and then your bullet damage is applied next.

Warp ammo also is applied 1st & separately too against barriers.

I use warp ammo III in that video and you can understand why I didn't go for this obvious explanation. 1st point would be Warp ammo does nothing vs shields, we can all agree on that. 2nd, I know about 1 shotting phantoms with ED, I figured it out a while ago when I was doing solo gold in the ME3 demo - the difference is Disruptor has damage bonus vs shields and barriers, which will make sense if Warp was the same. But it's not... so bypassing that remaining shield on the Atlas to deal direct armor damage is still a mystery. And 1 bar of shield on an Atlas can mean 10, 20, 50 or even a 1000 shield left... no way of knowing exactly how much. Problem is, 1 bar of Atlas shield is half the BW damage per shot. You can see I deal 2 shield bars of damage with every shot. An ammo power like Warp, even if it were effective against shields, which it isn't , wouldn't account for half the damage of the shot. Wouldn't make sense...

So I'm still puzzled.

Warp ammo gives a bonus to armor damage (also applied separately)

it's POSSIBLE (not definitive) that it could be that your normal bullet damage is applied is the shields 1st since the warp ammo "doesn't see the shields" & your warp ammo is then applied to armor (because warp ammo has no effect on shields so it's not applied until after your normal damage is applied to the shields) would seem to be other explaination --is that a bug or a feature? LOL

that would make warp ammo pretty powerful against armored units too

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 03 avril 2012 - 11:26 .

[Nasu no Yoichi]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Time Inbetween Shots - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Reload Time - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Total Iteration - 3.45 ((1.15 * 2) + 1.15) 

Care to explain this? I am not quite sure I understand why it supposedly takes 1.15 seconds between shots when not
reloading... the RoF delay is nowhere near that long, and your calculation is wrong if that's including aim time...

[ZeroDivision]

Nasu no Yoichi wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Time Inbetween Shots - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Reload Time - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Total Iteration - 3.45 ((1.15 * 2) + 1.15) 

Care to explain this? I am not quite sure I understand why it supposedly takes 1.15 seconds between shots when not
reloading... the RoF delay is nowhere near that long, and your calculation is wrong if that's including aim time...

Mined from the game's coalesce.bin:  The Black Widow's rate of fire is 60bpm.  This means that the Black Widow has 1bps or in layman's terms takes a second in between each shot.  When I mention that it's based on Specter in that post I'm referring to the fact that in a video he posted later in the thread he took an average of 0.15 seconds to aim in between shots.

The reloading time is the average he was able to achieve through using cloak to cancel the reload time.  The perfect ideal time should be 1 second.  I'd say that based on this knowledge he's quite efficient at it.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 03 avril 2012 - 11:41 .

[Sun Tzglyph]

Very interesting posts, i have neither the BW or JAvelin yet, just a widow 5, and as for playing in gold, i would definietely try to practive with the Bw for it's versatiliy.
But
Even if the developers are aware of it and will not change it, i think i wouldn't like using the reload exploit on purpose, and also
tested in single player, when shooting at close to close-medium range on small moving targets (ie moving heads) the recoil of the Bw negates it's 3 shot advantage... unless you use another exploit...

Modifié par fabsmilee, 04 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[Trix-Rabbit]

Ill say it again, this thread is pointless without context. If you arent including powers into the equation like ED/PM/Sabo/Cryo.

Since anything you might gain on weapon damage you could be losing on power spam. In some cases this is significant EG widow/bw/jav. Making the mantis more or less on par with these.

[Sp3c7eR]

Trix-Rabbit wrote...

Ill say it again, this thread is pointless without context. If you arent including powers into the equation like ED/PM/Sabo/Cryo.

Since anything you might gain on weapon damage you could be losing on power spam. In some cases this is significant EG widow/bw/jav. Making the mantis more or less on par with these.

I think it says it in the thread title: comparison between javelin and black widow, just the weapons, no powers involved. And I think that's valid because as soon as you enter powers into the equation then you go into a whole different territory. It's fair to say that some weapons synergise well with powers, others don't. Some powers like ED are useless against armor so if you're comparing the Javelin and Black Widow vs armor alone, powers don't contribute much. This thread actually contains a wealth of information from different sources/viewpoints and if ZeroDivision compiles it into his OP he can end up with a good guide of pros and cons for both weapons.

[Nasu no Yoichi]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Nasu no Yoichi wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Time Inbetween Shots - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Reload Time - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Total Iteration - 3.45 ((1.15 * 2) + 1.15) 

Care to explain this? I am not quite sure I understand why it supposedly takes 1.15 seconds between shots when not
reloading... the RoF delay is nowhere near that long, and your calculation is wrong if that's including aim time...

Mined from the game's coalesce.bin:  The Black Widow's rate of fire is 60bpm.  This means that the Black Widow has 1bps or in layman's terms takes a second in between each shot.  When I mention that it's based on Specter in that post I'm referring to the fact that in a video he posted later in the thread he took an average of 0.15 seconds to aim in between shots.

The reloading time is the average he was able to achieve through using cloak to cancel the reload time.  The perfect ideal time should be 1 second.  I'd say that based on this knowledge he's quite efficient at it.

OK, statement about RoF delay retracted. Thanks for explaining. However, I believe you have forgotten the aim time of the first shot.

Approx. time per clip = number of rounds in clip * average aim time + number of rounds in clip - 1 * RoF delay + reload time
Approx. time per clip = 3 * 0.15 + 2 * 1.0 + 1.15 = 3.6

(I am assuming RoF delay is replaced by reload time at the end of the magazine)

Modifié par Nasu no Yoichi, 04 avril 2012 - 01:07 .

[ZeroDivision]

Nasu no Yoichi wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Nasu no Yoichi wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

Time Inbetween Shots - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Reload Time - 1.15 (based on Specter) 
Total Iteration - 3.45 ((1.15 * 2) + 1.15) 

Care to explain this? I am not quite sure I understand why it supposedly takes 1.15 seconds between shots when not
reloading... the RoF delay is nowhere near that long, and your calculation is wrong if that's including aim time...

Mined from the game's coalesce.bin:  The Black Widow's rate of fire is 60bpm.  This means that the Black Widow has 1bps or in layman's terms takes a second in between each shot.  When I mention that it's based on Specter in that post I'm referring to the fact that in a video he posted later in the thread he took an average of 0.15 seconds to aim in between shots.

The reloading time is the average he was able to achieve through using cloak to cancel the reload time.  The perfect ideal time should be 1 second.  I'd say that based on this knowledge he's quite efficient at it.

OK, statement about RoF delay retracted. Thanks for explaining. However, I believe you have forgotten the aim time of the first shot.

Approx. time per clip = number of rounds in clip * average aim time + number of rounds in clip - 1 * RoF delay + reload time
Approx. time per clip = 3 * 0.15 + 2 * 1.0 + 1.15 = 3.6

(I am assuming RoF delay is replaced by reload time at the end of the magazine)

That's a nice catch, thanks!
I'll have to update the OP with that correction in a bit.  About to start a match right now though.