194 réponses à ce sujet

[Trix-Rabbit]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Trix-Rabbit wrote...

Ill say it again, this thread is pointless without context. If you arent including powers into the equation like ED/PM/Sabo/Cryo.

Since anything you might gain on weapon damage you could be losing on power spam. In some cases this is significant EG widow/bw/jav. Making the mantis more or less on par with these.

I think it says it in the thread title: comparison between javelin and black widow, just the weapons, no powers involved. And I think that's valid because as soon as you enter powers into the equation then you go into a whole different territory. It's fair to say that some weapons synergise well with powers, others don't. Some powers like ED are useless against armor so if you're comparing the Javelin and Black Widow vs armor alone, powers don't contribute much. This thread actually contains a wealth of information from different sources/viewpoints and if ZeroDivision compiles it into his OP he can end up with a good guide of pros and cons for both weapons.

Thats what prox mine is for. Armor. 

Also you are missing my point entirely.   Without entering powers into the equation any result is pointless.  It would be a pointless guide. All it would tell is weather or not the bw or jav is better on their own.  Which is pointless since all classes have powers.  And this goes double for Infils since you really couldnt base your weapon selection off this for any infil without considering powers.  For all you know the Javelin could be worse than than the mantis X when you enter powers into the equation.

[ZeroDivision]

Trix-Rabbit wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Trix-Rabbit wrote...

Ill say it again, this thread is pointless without context. If you arent including powers into the equation like ED/PM/Sabo/Cryo.

Since anything you might gain on weapon damage you could be losing on power spam. In some cases this is significant EG widow/bw/jav. Making the mantis more or less on par with these.

I think it says it in the thread title: comparison between javelin and black widow, just the weapons, no powers involved. And I think that's valid because as soon as you enter powers into the equation then you go into a whole different territory. It's fair to say that some weapons synergise well with powers, others don't. Some powers like ED are useless against armor so if you're comparing the Javelin and Black Widow vs armor alone, powers don't contribute much. This thread actually contains a wealth of information from different sources/viewpoints and if ZeroDivision compiles it into his OP he can end up with a good guide of pros and cons for both weapons.

Thats what prox mine is for. Armor. 

Also you are missing my point entirely.   Without entering powers into the equation any result is pointless.  It would be a pointless guide. All it would tell is weather or not the bw or jav is better on their own.  Which is pointless since all classes have powers.  And this goes double for Infils since you really couldnt base your weapon selection off this for any infil without considering powers.  For all you know the Javelin could be worse than than the mantis X when you enter powers into the equation.

Unfortunately you seem to be completely missing the point of this thread.  The purpose of this thread is to compare the Black Widow to the Javelin using only the common denominators available to all infiltrators.  This isn't an "Optimal Infiltrator Build Guide."  There are entirely too many factors that come into play to fully quantify if a Solarian Infiltrator is indeed better than a Human or Quarian Infiltrator.

This is simply a "Here are the Pros and Cons of the Javelin and Black Widow in Numerical Form" thread.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If you'd like to discuss which infiltrator is better than the others and why you should use a lighter weapon for powers on one and a heavier weapon on others due to the fact that cloak and grenades aren't affected by weight then you should make a thread to do so.

[Sun Tzglyph]

I keep hearing that cloak is not affected by weight. It's not true, i've tested it. It's affected differently, but just try this : equip a widow, and a claymore at same time, go in game, cloak, wait 8 seconds out of your 10s under cloak, shoot something.
Now how long you wait until you get to use cloak again.

Link to another post http://social.biowar...3816/2#10907063

[Terraflare]

fabsmilee wrote...

I keep hearing that cloak is not affected by weight. It's not true, i've tested it. It's affected differently, but just try this : equip a widow, and a claymore at same time, go in game, cloak, wait 8 seconds out of your 10s under cloak, shoot something.
Now how long you wait until you get to use cloak again.

Link to another post http://social.biowar...3816/2#10907063

Just to point out, this is true only if you spend more than the minimum amount of time under cloak. Most of the calculations/point of this thread is to see which rifle does more damage while flat out DPSing (watch video by specter for an example). If you wait the full duration under cloak, you will get the full duration of the cooldown (ie perhaps 6 vs 7 seconds cooldown between lighter vs heavier weapons).

In most scenarios this is irrelevant, infs rarely spend full cloak durations (i do it maybe 2-3 times each game, if objective capper, then 4 times per objective wave). 99% of the time I am simply using cloak as a damage booster ie cloak > shoot immediately. In THIS scenario weight is irrelevant.

[Sun Tzglyph]

Terraflare wrote...

fabsmilee wrote...

I keep hearing that cloak is not affected by weight. It's not true, i've tested it. It's affected differently, but just try this : equip a widow, and a claymore at same time, go in game, cloak, wait 8 seconds out of your 10s under cloak, shoot something.
Now how long you wait until you get to use cloak again.

Link to another post http://social.biowar...3816/2#10907063

Just to point out, this is true only if you spend more than the minimum amount of time under cloak. Most of the calculations/point of this thread is to see which rifle does more damage while flat out DPSing (watch video by specter for an example). If you wait the full duration under cloak, you will get the full duration of the cooldown (ie perhaps 6 vs 7 seconds cooldown between lighter vs heavier weapons).

In most scenarios this is irrelevant, infs rarely spend full cloak durations (i do it maybe 2-3 times each game, if objective capper, then 4 times per objective wave). 99% of the time I am simply using cloak as a damage booster ie cloak > shoot immediately. In THIS scenario weight is irrelevant.

I agree and disagree. Although nine out of 10 uses with the infiltrator should be cloak/shoot and thus negates the weight problem, the 2, 3 or 4 times (more if i have to complete the hacking objectives on gold) i have to use cloak for longer periods of time are generally critical instances; and death sentences if i don't have a quick reload time.

I just wanted to point out that i've seen a few people just stating as a fact that weight had no incidence on cloak, perhaps because they only see the cloak/ immediatly shoot use. It's just inexact, and had to be pointed out.
Try equipping a claymore on top of your widow on gold (which you don't need anyway) ; play a few games; and see if you don't regret it only once, that extra weight. 6 seconds to recloak would already be a pain, try 10, or try 20...

Edit : You are although very correct when saying that in the scenario discussed here, purely DPS, it doesnt matter.
I only had to intervene about that point so that other readers may not draw the wrong conclusions about cloak CD.

Modifié par fabsmilee, 04 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[BaKaNoOB]

BW times > wall of text
vs three (small) targets in close proximity
Zoom -> Shoot 0.5s
zoom ->shoot 0.5 s
zoom - shoot 0.5 s

Vs Atlas, Banshee, Prime
zoom-> shoot 0.3s
zoom ->shoot 0.3s
zoom ->shoot 0.3s

Note : zooming/rezooming canselc reload rimes

if you make it the other way its 3 sec for each cases cause when reloading you usualy aim at next target 1 sec is prety much enought

Thats all from me.....

Modifié par BaKaNoOB, 04 avril 2012 - 01:06 .

[Ehrgeix]

ZeroDivision wrote...

There are entirely too many factors that come into play to fully quantify if a Solarian Infiltrator is indeed better than a Human or Quarian Infiltrator.

Do you really think this is true?

[xephyris]

Ehrgeix wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

There are entirely too many factors that come into play to fully quantify if a Solarian Infiltrator is indeed better than a Human or Quarian Infiltrator.

Do you really think this is true?

I agree with ZeroDivision. Things such as flavour and playstyle come under "too many factors", as pointed out above. I don't always want to to shoot at things with my heavy one or three-shot rifle.

[Dr Derp]

Terraflare wrote...

ZeroDivision wrote...

If you'd like I could debunk your claim?  After timing his BW reload-exploits he was able to cut off between 1.7 and 1.97 seconds of the reload animation each time.  That's an average of 1.8 seconds added to each iteration.  It took him 4 iterations bringing it to a total of 7.34 seconds gained. This means that it would have taken him 23.56 seconds with the black widow assuming no exploit.  He's also taking an average of 0.68 seconds (2 were over a second, 1 was very close) to fire the Javelin instead of the minimum 0.25 seconds. meaning that he lost 2.58 seconds.  Under ideal circumstances that puts the Javelin at 20.42 compared to a non-exploited BW at 23.56.   I've timed this (admittedly using a phone app) 20 total times to ensure a modicrum of accuracy.

This has proved one thing though.  In a practical situation a person skilled with the Black Widow and not as practiced with the Javelin will be better with the Black Widow.  Thus numbers don't mean everything as player skill cannot be accurately quantified as a number using any algorithm I know.


As an asside I would also like to point out that any animation besides the standard movement (even switching weapons, sprinting, or moving into cover) will cancel reload animations after the ammo number is iterated.  This means that you can very easily use the exploit with the Javelin as well, though not with the cloak bonus each time.

This is hilarious. This entire thread has been extremely entertaining for me and I hope for everyone else as well who has been along for the ride. 

Let me just summarise it for everyone who didnt read through the 4 pages of hilarity.

The OP began this thread with one purpose: To 'prove' in however way he could, that the Javelin "blew" the BW out of the water in terms of single target DPS. He has posted this in at least 2 other threads, stating that the BW "sucks" and is a "terrible gun" reserved solely for "silver and below". I could simply have let this go, but I felt the need to correct him because many new players might come across this false piece of "proof" and start training in a gun that is in more ways than 1, limited, compared to the BW. These guys will be my teammates in gold eventually. 

OP do you read what you are saying and realise how futile you sound? You continue to insist that close to 2 seconds were lost each cycle. From the video, you also do realise that taking 3 shots takes 2 seconds (please admit this), + one FULL reload at 2.97 seconds = 4.97 seconds, or 5 seconds. This has been accepted by SO many people its not even funny. Therefore the maximum time a BW will take = 4 cycles = 20 seconds. Sp3c7eR takes 16.22 seconds, or approx 4 seconds per cycle. I already mentioned that having 3 cloak shots fired with reload cancelling would = 4 seconds per cycle in a previous thread. You ignored it, or dismissed it as being an impossibility. His video just proved what I felt in my games. 

You continue to claim that the speed at which Sp3c7eR fires his javelin is not the fastest, however, for occasional shots (noticeably the first cycle), of his BW, he delays for a little too (he already admitted this, even missing out on one cloak shot). At the end of the day it does not matter, your point has been proven wrong, stop trying to make it sound as if they still stand (if so, post a video).

With current mechanics (reload cancelling), BW will consistently out DPS a single target, again something that I mentioned multiple times across multiple threads. Without it (if it gets removed, i doubt it will), the timings will be literally neck at neck. A person more comfortable with either weapon will be able to shave 1-2 seconds off in total, but my point still stands. ANY DIFFERENCE AT THIS LEVEL IS MEANINGLESS. 

Who cares if you take 20 seconds on a BW vs 21 seconds on a Javelin, or 19 seconds on a Javelin vs 20 on a BW? The whole POINT of my (and Sp3c7eR's, and many others') discussion is the debunk the myth that "Widow X/Javelin will take a single fat target down much faster than the BW". What the video (and everything I've said) proves it that the BW can do everything the Javelin/Widow X can do on single targets, with added flexibility of being able to deal with small mobs faster. 

For everyone in this thread reading it attempting to try and decide which weapon they should practice at here's the verdict, repeated for emphasis: 
the BW can do everything the Javelin/Widow X can do on single targets, with added flexibility of being able to deal with small mobs faster.  

Many above have posted saying they 'prefer' the Jav/Widow X over the BW. That's fine, use whatever gun suits you. Different situations/team compositions will make one gun more useful than the other. As mentioned, I have alot better experiences using Widow compared to BW against gold reapers, since with reapers you rarely have the stationary time to empty your clip. Moving most of the time, taking shots once in a while without sacrificing damage = Widow X. For Cerberus its not even a question. Phantoms are the ONLY problem, and BW will allow you to kill 1 each cycle. The Widow/Javelin will always take at least 2 cycles to kill a phantom even WITH energy drain. Geth Primes stagger (interrupting your BW cycle), but BW makes getting flanked by a hunter a non-issue. With a Widow, one hunter flank often means you are dead, or have to scramble to pick yourself up. 

So OP, continue holding on to your irrelevant data mined info. Every piece of info (both theoretical and justified) has been laid before you, if you choose not to look at it, no one can do anything. 

+9000 

Thank you for speaking for us all that was satisfying

[peddroelm]

ZeroDivision wrote...

Black Widow I
Damage per Shot - 514.1 
Cloak Damage per Shot - 1182.43 (514.1 * 2.3) 

  

Wrong - assuming body shot & NO ED from passives and no Extended barrel mod (like you did here) it is

514.1 * 1.4 * (1 + 0.9) = 1 367.506

ZeroDivision wrote... 


Javelin I
Damage per shot - 1030.5 
Cloak Damage per Shot - 2370.15 (1030.5 * 2.3) 

Wrong - assuming body shot & NO ED from passives and no Extended barrel mod (like you did here) it is 


1 030.5 * 1.4 * (1 + 0.9) = 2 741.13 

And you should do the calculations with Extended barrel V and some ED from passives - because thats how the those guns are used in nearly all applications ...

Why do I say that ? 
514.1 * 1.4 * (1 + 0.9) = 1 367.506 does not kill anything but husks on gold
514.1 * 1.4 * (1 + 0.9 + 0.25 + 0.2) = 1 691.389  (extended barrel V & 20 WD from passive) kills health of gold cerberus troops in one hit to the body ... 

Spalsh in consumables Warp ammo 3 and SR rail # and now you can drop Geth Troopers and Cannibals with 1 hit to the body  (weapon becomes much more noob friendly)

(514.1 * 1.4 * 0.35) + (514.1 * 1.4 * (1 + 0.9 + 0.25 + 0.2 + 0.3)) = 2 159.22

Modifié par peddroelmz, 09 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[Dr Derp]

Terraflare wrote...

 

ZeroDivision
wrote...


The BW is indeed a bad sniper compared to the
Widow, Valiant, and Javelin. It is inferior to the javelin and Valiant in DPS,
vastly inferior to the Javelin and Widow in stopping power, and is generally
terrible above silver unless your whole play style is to abuse glitches with
animations and the aim-assist on the console version.

ZeroDivision
wrote...





I'm starting to think that the reason people like
the BW at all is due to the fact that the vast majority of people only play on
bronze or silver with completely random strangers which is where it shines. In
a structured, skilled team on Gold it loses a lot of it's steam and is
overtaken by the Widow and destroyed by the Javelin. I'd wager that when, if,
more of the community moves into gold you'll see less people defending it.

Still think so?

I'm pretty sure he was trolling when he typed this... either that or he's just stupid

[B10h4z4rd1990]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 So... I rummaged through some of my footage from yesterday and found something curious, and before ZeroDivision declares it invalid I hasten to add - it is not a perfect kill. Yet notice what happens to the 6th shot of the Black Widow:

Shield Gating? Where is it?

And yes, this test scored a time of 15.25 seconds. Could be better as I was a little thrown by the body jerk animation of the Atlas, but hey these things happen. Only people with link will be able to see video.

I might have the answere,
some places around the cockpit of the atlas the bullets do multiple damage because of the widow's piercing damage. I have no blackwidow or javlin yet, but I do use the M-98 Widow X with piercing mod V and extended barrel V all the time. I noticed that when you hit the atlas in the down right small windshield window it usually does more damage and folowed up you hear a double impact sound.
I think it's because the bullet hits another polygon somewhere inside the atlas which inflicts the another bullet

What I think what happend in the video is that the first impact removed the shield and the second the first bar of armor.

@ sp3c7er

So lucky how I find you on the bioware forum, I subbed to you on youtube since your first gold wave on the demo, it was so awsome and seemed so impossible at that time. You should post some more video's, just some random matches in which you do good, I enjoy 'm so much and watch all your video's.

Your shield gating video never appeared in my sub-box such a pitty ^^

Edit: I think you have proven your point with a practical video, nobody cares about the reload exploit because everybody would use it. Same for the energydrain/sabotage exploit.

Modifié par B10h4z4rd1990, 09 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[peddroelm]

B10h4z4rd1990 wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...


Shield Gating? Where is it?

I might have the answere,
some places around the cockpit of the atlas the bullets do multiple damage because of the widow's piercing damage. I have no blackwidow or javlin yet, but I do use the M-98 Widow X with piercing mod V and extended barrel V all the time. I noticed that when you hit the atlas in the down right small windshield window it usually does more damage and folowed up you hear a double impact sound.
I think it's because the bullet hits another polygon somewhere inside the atlas which inflicts the another bullet

What I think what happend in the video is that the first impact removed the shield and the second the first bar of armor.

@ sp3c7er

My math analysis concluded that in those videos  sp3c7er deals double the expected damage per shot when firing on the canopy .. Hiting the Atlas twice with the same bullet would explain the fenomenon perfectly ... 

[Merchant2006]

lol

[Sp3c7eR]

I'll repeat the tests vs a Banshee on Gold & I'll use reload cancel for Javelin as well to see if it can beat the Black Widow. I'll link the video here.

[peddroelm]

As further empirical proof of the double atlas hit per bullet theory I recall downing Atlases significantly slower on silver with my Raptor X after running out of AP ammo Charges and Switching to Warp Ammo (by default Raptor does not have penetration capabilities ...)

[peddroelm]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

I'll repeat the tests vs a Banshee on Gold & I'll use reload cancel for Javelin as well to see if it can beat the Black Widow. I'll link the video here.

BW will win by a significant margin ...Javelin & Valiant might be close ...

Banshee is not a very good subject for this kind of test - unless you can get it to stay still for the duration (bring teammates for her to melee kill while you take your shots ?)

Modifié par peddroelmz, 09 avril 2012 - 11:35 .

[hbogyt II]

He should be commended for the first attempt to scientifically compared 2 different weapons regardless of the reuslt.

[B10h4z4rd1990]

guess what I just unlocked the black widow I need to control it a bit more tough but it's amazing

[peddroelm]

B10h4z4rd1990 wrote...

I might have the answere,
some places around the cockpit of the atlas the bullets do multiple damage because of the widow's piercing damage. I have no blackwidow or javlin yet, but I do use the M-98 Widow X with piercing mod V and extended barrel V all the time. I noticed that when you hit the atlas in the down right small windshield window it usually does more damage and folowed up you hear a double impact sound.
I think it's because the bullet hits another polygon somewhere inside the atlas which inflicts the another bullet

You got it right ... Shooting the atlas canopy with piercing weapons allows you to hit the  Atlas twice with the same projectile - and thus deal double damage to it ... 


A simple test on bronze (wave 7) atlas - shoot it with Mantis X without piercing mod//AP ammo  (6 shots to kill) ... And then again with Mantis X with AP ammo lvl 1 (3 shots to kill)..

Test was ran by Tangster and then by me ... I'll try to upload a video ilustrating this - but I'm not very proeficient at it ..

Video

This has some implications for the Shotgun Infiltrators as well GPS and Grall cannot penetrate and thus cannot do double damage to atlas ... A Claymore with AP ammo however ....

Modifié par peddroelmz, 11 avril 2012 - 04:40 .