121 réponses à ce sujet

[N7 Spectre525]

Lolb4udiez wrote...

lol, Vanguard on Gold

Myself and 3 other friends of mine who also rock Vanguards blazed through gold last night. 
Nothing funny.

[OhoniX]

I got my Vanguard to 20 over the weekend, and really loved playing her, but it's definitely a scary class, because to be useful with it means running a razors's edge. You definitely shouldn't charge off away from the pack, but you do have to end up right in the thick of the enemies to be useful to the group, and if you misjudge the concentration of enemies in a given area then you'll probably suffer for it. In my own experience, if you Vanguard isn't dying more often than any other character you play, then you're probably doing something wrong, just try not to put your group at risk when you do it.

[ForkInSocket]

Bolo Xia wrote...

if you cant hack it on a support character then you are the one who is bad. Support does not mean worthless... unless a bad player is playing it, of course that goes with all characters.

i just realized a week ago or so that 80% to 90% of the player base are bad players.

i learned not to count on them for anything in a mission. saves me the rage and headache that made me want to scream and strangle people.

most of the time i play as a team even though the rest of every one could care less or they dont even realize i am playing off of them.

next time follow that bad player around and warp(or other powers) right before they attack, get used to which one they attack out of a group. your team will own everything and you will get tons of points from combo's (plus revive points from saving bad player).

they can keep thinking they own face all day long while im doing a silent grin in the background caressing my easy xp and credits.

play the bad player, dont get played by one.

That's great in theory, but the reality is, it generally takes 6 waves before you can reliably determine who is going to focus on completing objectives, let alone discerning dominant playstyle of a random pick up group player.

Player performance depends a lot on spec AND the people you are playing with. How do they complete the map? Are they leaving runners? Which enemies do they prioritize? Do they clear portions of the map in a wave, or use some other approach? Do they work together? Even good players rarely thrive with bad teams.

On Bronze, for example, I can rack up decent scores with a low-level class with minimal skills and just a Carnifex, but I have to play that class very well, I have to make my headshots, and I have to to stay alive. A noob straight from Call of Duty with a low N7 level and a properly tuned mid-level Vanguard can trash my score simply spamming Charge -> Nova while the rest of us cover his rear.  Does that make him a better player? No. But he thinks it does, because his AoE spamming is consistently giving him the best kill counts and scores in a match. That is the point.

It's not about what the support classes aren't getting, or how they are being played. Vanguards are unbalanced, and everyone knows it.

[Relshar]

ForkInSocket wrote...

DennyHoffmann wrote...

Start to play WITH the vanguards, and not against them, and you will realize how fun the match can be. If you encounter a bad player, simply finish the match and leave the party, as everyone does.

Play with the Vanguards? Do tell, how does one do that? Should I follow him around the map for his sloppy seconds? Try to anticipate which corner of the map he will teleport to next and drop single target Warps to set up biotic explosions for him?  Perhaps find some nice shady isolated spawn camp and just leech?

What a crock of ****. The complaints are legitimate. 

Its easy if you are a decent player. Just set up some place and watch where the Vangard goes to when they land shoot the weakend and stunned mobs. In all the maps you can have a good field of view if you know where to go. And they can easily be defended.

I was doing this earlier tonight with a engineer and infiltrator character with a vangard in the group. I like to think with my killing and stunning the targets behind them it was keeping him alive long enough to rip through the enemy ranks. So what if I only got assist points ? We all get the same exp and credits at the end.

Sounds like your just looking to score points instead of team work. That makes you a bad player not the Vangard player.

[ForkInSocket]

Relshar wrote...

[Its easy if you are a decent player. Just set up some place and watch where the Vangard goes to when they land shoot the weakend and stunned mobs. In all the maps you can have a good field of view if you know where to go. And they can easily be defended.

I was doing this earlier tonight with a engineer and infiltrator character with a vangard in the group. I like to think with my killing and stunning the targets behind them it was keeping him alive long enough to rip through the enemy ranks. So what if I only got assist points ? We all get the same exp and credits at the end.

Sounds like your just looking to score points instead of team work. That makes you a bad player not the Vangard player.

Reading comprehension. Go back and read my posts. I don't care a whit about points. Vanguard gameplay is simply not conducive to team play. The only time it works is when a Vanguard and Warp/Reave capable player agree to set up Biotic Explosions, and even then, the Vanguard is simply doing the other guy a favor. He doesn't NEED to cooperate at all to be successful.

You can take pride in killing the singles and pairs scraps that a Vanguard leaves for your supper if you wish, but when I play as a support character, I don't like seeing my role diminished by the spamming of a couple of simple skills that don't even require the target to be lined up under crosshairs.

[jaydubs67]

ForkInSocket wrote...

Anybody can play Vanguard well. There is a reason it is recommended here as a confidence-building first class.

 

What?  Who exactly is saying that?  

ForkInSocket wrote...

On Bronze, for example, I can rack up decent scores with a low-level class with minimal skills and just a Carnifex, but I have to play that class very well, I have to make my headshots, and I have to to stay alive. A noob straight from Call of Duty with a low N7 level and a properly tuned mid-level Vanguard can trash my score simply spamming Charge -> Nova while the rest of us cover his rear.  Does that make him a better player? No. But he thinks it does, because his AoE spamming is consistently giving him the best kill counts and scores in a match. That is the point.

It's not about what the support classes aren't getting, or how they are being played. Vanguards are unbalanced, and everyone knows it.

So, just to be clear, your beef with vanguards is that they can trash bronze even as noobs.  Is that right?  

[Esoretal]

Lol don't let one ignorant vanguard ruin your perception of everyone. I have seen some decent team-playing vanguards. Using shockwave to set off biotic explosions, staying in the hack zone, picking off the stray enemies, watching team members' backs... it can happen.

Modifié par Esoretal, 03 avril 2012 - 01:10 .

[MissMinaethiel]

I only have a problem with Vanguards if I run into one of these reasons:

1. They constantly set off screen-shaking while I'm trying to snipe.
2. There's 2 human Vanguards (in which case I feel completely useless, and that is never fun)
3. They go down every 5 seconds.

Other than that they're a welcome bullet magnet on my team.

[ForkInSocket]

jaydubs67 wrote...

ForkInSocket wrote...

Anybody can play Vanguard well. There is a reason it is recommended here as a confidence-building first class.

 

What?  Who exactly is saying that?

I've seen it here many times, and it's an accurate observation. 

jaydubs67 wrote...

ForkInSocket wrote...

On Bronze, for example, I can rack up decent scores with a low-level class with minimal skills and just a Carnifex, but I have to play that class very well, I have to make my headshots, and I have to to stay alive. A noob straight from Call of Duty with a low N7 level and a properly tuned mid-level Vanguard can trash my score simply spamming Charge -> Nova while the rest of us cover his rear.  Does that make him a better player? No. But he thinks it does, because his AoE spamming is consistently giving him the best kill counts and scores in a match. That is the point.

It's not about what the support classes aren't getting, or how they are being played. Vanguards are unbalanced, and everyone knows it.

So, just to be clear, your beef with vanguards is that they can trash bronze even as noobs.  Is that right?  

They can stumble into many wildly successful matches on Silver as well. It was an example. My point is the reward-to-skill ratio is much higher for Vanguards, and generally encourages sloppy play to the detriment of the Vanguard's teammates, by any metric you like: player enjoyment, kill counts, assists, XP, credits, whatever.

On Gold, they need to be good players, and luckily one match will weed out the really stupid, reckless and inconsiderate players. But you can say that about any class.

[fixit6]

Against what I said, played bronze game with 2 lvl 20 VGs. Of course they basically trashed the level and I got to do nothing....they even charged across map to kill a mob I was just about to kill. At end, their score was quite high, as usual. They then proceeded to tell me how bad me and the 4th member was on thier mics. KK. So next game I switch it to silver right at last moment. They both died on wave 1 way across map where no one could res them in time. Cleared wave. Same thing happened in the next. They both rage quit but not before telling us with colorful language (including racial slurs) that we should enjoy the loss, noobs. Me and 4th member then completed the mission duo w/o a hitch. Whos bad again?

Show me 1 good VG and I show you 50 who are terrible, giving that class a super bad name.

Modifié par fixit6, 03 avril 2012 - 01:29 .

[jaydubs67]

@ForkInSocket


I could be wrong, but I see a lot more "I hate vanguards" threads than ones suggesting new players pick it as their first class.  I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a first class in any case.  


While human vanguards are very good at clearing out bronze waves, I don't really think that matters.  It would be a grave mistake to balance the game around bronze difficulty.  In silver games, while a good vanguard can wipe the field as you say, it usually doesn't happen.  Players that are good enough to constantly wipe silver and leave nothing for his teammates don't generally play a lot of silver.  And in gold, there's always enough stuff for everyone to kill.  If anything, the emphasis is on speed runs.  


Basically, I just don't think your concerns about the class are applicable in difficulties above bronze.  And I don't think bronze is meant to be balanced, but rather easy-mode for newbies and people who feel like playing casual games.  

[Choc]

Protip: Human Vanguards can go invulnerable indefinitely by casting Nova and then immediately cancelling the animation with a roll. They get the full duration of invulnerability, and do not expend any barrier. Nova has no cooldown. Neither do rolls of alternating direction.

Congratulations, now you're a real Vanguard.

Modifié par Choc, 03 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[ForkInSocket]

jaydubs67 wrote...

@ForkInSocket


I could be wrong, but I see a lot more "I hate vanguards" threads than ones suggesting new players pick it as their first class.  I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a first class in any case.  


While human vanguards are very good at clearing out bronze waves, I don't really think that matters.  It would be a grave mistake to balance the game around bronze difficulty.  In silver games, while a good vanguard can wipe the field as you say, it usually doesn't happen.  Players that are good enough to constantly wipe silver and leave nothing for his teammates don't generally play a lot of silver.  And in gold, there's always enough stuff for everyone to kill.  If anything, the emphasis is on speed runs.  


Basically, I just don't think your concerns about the class are applicable in difficulties above bronze.  And I don't think bronze is meant to be balanced, but rather easy-mode for newbies and people who feel like playing casual games.  

Perhaps I have bad luck, because I run into these guys in silver matches all the time. They're basically doing the same thing you see in the gold video above, they just don't need the adrenaline mod to do it. If you can find a target, and you don't rush Brute/Banshee clusters at 100%, you too can live forever. It takes 6 rather obvious skill choices to make an immortal map-wrecking Vanguard, even on silver...  and if you can't figure it out yourself, there are plenty of paint-by-numbers video examples on the interwebs.

You wouldn't want to be teamed with me with a 200% cooldown Vanguard, whether on bronze or silver and I actually TRY to be considerate. I consider that a class flaw, and anybody who really doesn't think Vanguards are OP for the meat of the game -- the bronze/silver matches-- probably isn't being honest with himself or just hasn't grouped with enough of them to notice.

[OhoniX]

A noob straight from Call of Duty with a low N7 level and a properly tuned mid-level Vanguard can trash my score simply spamming Charge -> Nova while the rest of us cover his rear. Does that make him a better player? No. But he thinks it does, because his AoE spamming is consistently giving him the best kill counts and scores in a match. That is the point.

It's not about what the support classes aren't getting, or how they are being played. Vanguards are unbalanced, and everyone knows it.

One, it's not about the scoring. I've played a Salarian Engineer that I believe was my most effective character ever, and yet never gotten above 4th place, and I've played Asari Vanguards and Drell Adapts that often scored first or second, and yet rarely felt that I was doing better than the rest of the team, just that the job I was doing was more rewarded by the game mechanics. You're always going to get a higher score when you get more kills, even if you're less responsible for those kills than the rest of the team. It'd be nice if they changed that, but other players shouldn't hold that against each other. Just know the range of scoring you can expect from your class and base your worth on how well you did against that range, not against what the other players score.

That said, a Vanguard can be a team player. I would always try to do what I could in any situation to make things easier for my team when I could, like crashing Guardian shields if nobody else could to open them up for the others, or taking down those pesky Ravagers, Pyros, and Nemeses.

[GodlessPaladin]

Rasputin17 wrote...

But, after months of play one thing seems true. Ignorant people play Vanguard.

  Ignorant people play every class.  /argument

Before I go off on a rant let me just say my main character in SP has always been Vanguard. Hence why I wanted to give them a chance. Its just people who know what they are doing tend to stay away from Vanguard while those who have no clue are drawn to it.

  Just because you haven't met anyone who knows what they're doing doesn't mean they don't exist.  If you look for youtube videos of groups running Gold Reapers to full extraction in under 15 minutes, check which class is on the team:  THE VANGUARD.

Here is just one example: 

As such, I suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about and aren't nearly as good at the game as you think you are.  Vanguards are easily one of the best classes in the game for gold (but by no means overpowered compared to other top tier classes like the SI or the AA).  The fact that they're hard enough to use properly that unskilled people suck with them is irrelevant to that.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 03 avril 2012 - 03:31 .

[jaydubs67]

ForkInSocket wrote...

jaydubs67 wrote...

@ForkInSocket


I could be wrong, but I see a lot more "I hate vanguards" threads than ones suggesting new players pick it as their first class.  I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a first class in any case.  


While human vanguards are very good at clearing out bronze waves, I don't really think that matters.  It would be a grave mistake to balance the game around bronze difficulty.  In silver games, while a good vanguard can wipe the field as you say, it usually doesn't happen.  Players that are good enough to constantly wipe silver and leave nothing for his teammates don't generally play a lot of silver.  And in gold, there's always enough stuff for everyone to kill.  If anything, the emphasis is on speed runs.  


Basically, I just don't think your concerns about the class are applicable in difficulties above bronze.  And I don't think bronze is meant to be balanced, but rather easy-mode for newbies and people who feel like playing casual games.  

Perhaps I have bad luck, because I run into these guys in silver matches all the time. They're basically doing the same thing you see in the gold video above, they just don't need the adrenaline mod to do it. If you can find a target, and you don't rush Brute/Banshee clusters at 100%, you too can live forever. It takes 6 rather obvious skill choices to make an immortal map-wrecking Vanguard, even on silver...  and if you can't figure it out yourself, there are plenty of paint-by-numbers video examples on the interwebs.

You wouldn't want to be teamed with me with a 200% cooldown Vanguard, whether on bronze or silver and I actually TRY to be considerate. I consider that a class flaw, and anybody who really doesn't think Vanguards are OP for the meat of the game -- the bronze/silver matches-- probably isn't being honest with himself or just hasn't grouped with enough of them to notice.

Oh no, I realize vanguards can do that on silver because I play that kind of vanguard.  I just don't see the point of playing that way on silver when I can play on gold.  When I do play on silver (a less optimized class) most of the vanguards I run into aren't that good.  In fact, they're kind of bad most of the time.  


I don't care about overpowered vanguards in bronze because bronze is easy-mode.  I don't care about overpowered vanguards in silver because they just aren't that common.  And I don't care about vanguards in gold because they're not overpowered in gold.  


But maybe it comes down to this.  I think the game should be balanced around gold difficulty.  And while the human vanguard is quite good in gold, it's not really better than asari adepts, salarian infiltrators, or salarian engineers.  

[ShaneZero]

Hating Vanguards is inefficient , what you really hate is how people play them

[GodlessPaladin]

The OP has pretty clearly never seen a Vanguard played properly, which is why I linked the above vid.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 03 avril 2012 - 03:33 .

[the-small-print]

Trouble is, even a really good vanguard player can be annoying. An asset to the team, sure, but as an infil I tend to end up putting one in the back of the vanguard's head as often as I do sniping an enemy because of that bloody charge...

An of course all that shaking and staggering means I often end up making holes in the scenery too.

[DnVill]

uhm.... when I see an ignorant Vanguard gets raped I usually run to his body and don't revive. Let them see I'm close enough to revive. Its fun watching them bleed to death.

Sometimes they get the point and after a few waves they become less suicidal... or rage quit. Either way works for me.

[Sky Stormsong]

Kolreth1 wrote...

Yeah I love vanguards who will charge endlessly when husks are around but hide on the other side of the map when a brute/banshee hits the field. And then brag about their score.

I play the Vanguard class quite often and I might charge a group of husks, but whenever something bigger and badder pops up I'm almost always already at it using Biotic Charge and Nova to take it out. If I'm not at it, there's probably a chance that I'm on my way, I found another and I'm working on it, or I'm helping someone out who just went down. I just don't see the point of having a lot of biotic explosion potentional and not using it for anything worthwhile

Sorry you had to deal with such a bad player, OP

[johhnytrash]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

  Just because you haven't met anyone who knows what they're doing doesn't mean they don't exist.  If you look for youtube videos of groups running Gold Reapers to full extraction in under 15 minutes, check which class is on the team:  THE VANGUARD.

Here is just one example: 

As such, I suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about and aren't nearly as good at the game as you think you are.  Vanguards are easily one of the best classes in the game for gold (but by no means overpowered compared to other top tier classes like the SI or the AA).  The fact that they're hard enough to use properly that unskilled people suck with them is irrelevant to that.

Do you know what is enlightening about that video? The vanguard stuck with the team. He never strayed too far where he couldn't get support.