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[IntoTheDarkness]

I read some threads supporting the claim that the ending should have been a victory of the allied fleets defeating reapers on head to head fight. I completely disagree and I think that will be much worse conclusion to the trilogy than the current ending. I have many points to back it up, so I will keep it in a simple, short pointforms for you to follow without difficulties.

I'm basically saying reapers are not beatable by conventional means even if thanix cannon is on every organic fleets.

Many of my points are, of cousre, speculations, so if you disagree, first try to see the flow of my logic and refute the whole point rather than nitpicking one particular point.






1. Every 50,000 year the ancient machines known as reapers wipe out every space faring species.

Sounds familiar? Good.

I had an argument with a guy who mocked me that I base my assertion on a trailer. However, the above phrase can be seen from pretty much everywhere like codex, intro, trailer, and conversation with Vigil/Sovereign.

So I will go ahead and assume that the statement is true.

The reapers are the synthetic that wipes out spacefaring species every 50,00 year.




2. the reapers are older than 1 billion years at least.

Leviathan of Dis is actually identified to be reaper, at least 1 billion years old, in ME3 by Balak, the terrorist you spared in Bring Down the Sky DLC.

Since Harbinger is speculated to be the oldest of the reapers, we can conclude that he is older than 1 billion years at minimum.

This means there has been over 2000 cycles in the past, using the speculation I drew from [1]. This goes along with the number of reapers you see in the end of ME2(most reaper fleets) and ME3(majority of reaper fleets on earth). As codex suggests, a capital class reaper is made from an entire species. (The reason they look all like Sovereign clone is because BW was lazy.)

We established the fact that there has been 2,000 cycles minimum in the past and a speculation that the number of captial ship reapers are thousands(equal to the cycle), give or take.




3. the reapers harvest spacefaring species.

Humans were spared in the last cycle because according to Javik, they were cavemen back then. Javik also mentions that humans were one of the most primitive races in his cycle. (along with Asari and Salarian.)

We are also told that Yahg will survive this cycle, being very primitive and all. According to codex, Yahg is a race that is being BLOCKED from spacefaring for murdering the embassadors of the council. With the presence of the previous Shadow Broker who obvioulsy quite smart and this fact that the council is blockading the planet, we can assume that Yahg is a species that is close to spacefaring yet they will survive because reapers are not intereseted in species too primitive.





4. Humans' technological advancement.

Humans needed 30 years, since the discovery of Prothean data on Mars, to uplift themselves to be on a technological equality with the rest of organic species like Turian, Salarian, Asari.

Asari's discovery of the citadel dates back about 3 thousand years if I recall correctly.

If reapers spare Yahg, they will have 50,000 years before the next harvest. If there is ANYONE like Shadow broker, Yahg will be as advanced as current species in 30 years like humans. Even if there is noone like the Shadow broker, Yagh will catch up the current technology level of organics within 3,000~4,000 years like Asari did with the help of Prothean.

It leaves them 45,000 years of time before the next cycle.

Even if reapers come eariler, there could be species that develop on their own in regions where mass relay is not built, thus never finding out about the citadel. This leaves them free from Vanguards like Sovereign to check their technological development.

I could bring up bunch of points regarding this, but all these arguments are summarized into the fact that 50,000 years is too long time for reapers to wait since organics can advance in an insane speed.

there has been 2,000+ cycles in the past. There could have been so many possibilities; there could have been a species that developed faster than humans, there could have been a species like Yahg that barely survived reaper harvesting because they were deemed to primitive, AND there could have been a species that was both deemed too primitive by the reapers and developed as fast as humans did in the remaining 50,000 years.

If those happen, it is the reapers that risk an annahilation due to their technology being outdated.

This leads to a conclusion that for the reapers to be absolutely safe from their own annahilation, reapers should make sure that they are always at least 50,000 years ahead of any organic species so that in even the unluckest set of events(non-spacefaring species that survived the last cycle and that develops faster than humans for the rest 50,000 years without using the reaper tech thus keeping Sovereign blind from its technological development), reapers still hold the technological superiority.

the reapers should be at least 50,000 years or more advanced than any organic species.

It is said in the game that the reapers come for a fight at the apex of civilization. But we have to think before taking that statement literraly. Apex of organic evolution(you know, cavemen were not really dumber than we are in terms of organic evolution), or technological evolution? The latter doesn't even make sesne because species use the reaper tech to develop once they discover a mass relay. I believe it is the peak of organic/physical evolution than technologal apex.






5. Ilos was the top secret research base of protheans and it was studying a small version of one-way travel mass relay, AKA conduit. As evident with Javik who heard of Crucible but never heard of Ilos, we can conclude that Ilos was a more secretive project, in other word, the best Prothenas could do.

the crucible has been passed down from species to the next cycle. With this and the beacons we know that the reapers' 'annahilation' is not quite perfect. They may erase all livng things, but they can't prevent information from being passed down.

If crucible was kept secret from the reapers, why not the secret of the citadel? All organics find out that the citadel was in fact a trap once the invasion starts, which means they would have tried some way to pass down the information for the next cycle, like Vigil on Ilos.

There were not only 2 cycles in the past. There has been over 2,000+! Although Protheans were unaware of the citadel's true purpose, you can' say the same for all cycles in the past. Many species in fact had KNOWN about the cycle and some of them might even had hundreds, if not thousands, years to prepare, but subsequently been wiped out due to the reapers being infinately(or over 50,000 according to my speculation) superior.

Neither it is true that this is the first cycle to bring all organics together. Again, the prothena cycle is not the ONLY cyle in the past. It's just one of 2000 cycles. There could have been, or rather must have been cycles where organics had the perfect condition to fight reapers, like all races united wihtout disputes, cross/species technological coordination, late discovery of the citadel thus late alarm by Soveregin, possible discovery of the citadel's true purpose or even the crucible itself.

But as we know, they all failed to win against reapers. Reapers are supposed to be that superior. That is why 4 drednaughts without thanix cannon bringing down a reaper bugs me, since it just sounds wrong.

And the fact that organics can copy Sovereigns' main razer weapon contradicts the reapers' technological superiority; you can't copy a technology that is 50,000 years ahead of you, let alone 100 years.




If I'm to give my 2c about this, I say the reapers reached the technological cap with their barrirer. It is stated that reapers don't have quantum shields like mass relays do 'because' they will be unaware of the surroundings, not because they lack the technology. The contradiction I raised can be answered this way; the reapers are 50,000 years more advanced than we are, but they can still be destroyed 4:1 by drednaughts because defense technology is much more diffcult than offense technology. (can we defend against nuclear bombs?) Thus, reapers are both 50,000 years or more advance than we are, yet at the same time they are destructible.





6. conclusion.

I wrote all these to explain that reapers are most likely much more advanced than we are. This may not make them invincible, but defeating them conventionally is just ridiculs because that kind of challenges have failed in the past cycles over and over again.

2,000 cycles in the past. the reapers won all of them.

huge technological gap and the possiblity that the past races were more advanced than current cycle and even more than protheans. the repaers still won.

citadel's secret must have been known in some of the past cycles, since crucibles secret(which was loose as evident with Javik and the fact is was continuesly used agsaint reapers) was passed down. the reapers still won.

organic races must have united in the past in more ideal conditions than Shepard's cycle. the repaers still won.


It makes me think that conventional means must be NOT AN OPTION to defeat reapers. if it is, it will punch a plothole larger than the starchild, killing the franchise competely for me. Reapers don't have to be gods as they were in ME1 ME2(they were already brought down in ME3...), bur for the trilogy's plots to even make sesne they should be unbeatable by conventional means.







ps. sorry for the mess. this thread got unintentionally longer than I initially expected.

[IntoTheDarkness]

bump

[F4H bandicoot]

In past cycles though, the reapers have attacked through the citadel and isolated each system. Here we have all the races united, which has probably not happened al that often. We also have the thanix cannons, and knowledge of the Repears and how to destroy them.

[Denethar]

It would be far less of a leap in logic than Space Child Deluxe doing his DNA changing spell.

[ZLurps]

Wow...

Well, I would add following to your thoughts.

There might be cycles that fail, Prothean cycle is example of that, no Reaper dreadnought was made of them. Then, however Reapers find other uses for them. The Collector drones was one use for Protheans, but there's also Reaper destroyers and fighters that may as well be constructed from space faring races that aren't "ascended" to dreadnought form.

What comes to technology... Rachni wars was most likely Sovereign's doing and it's attempt to gain access to the Citadel that was not responding it's command to open the mass relay in the dark space. Rachni wars were about 2000 years before the event's of ME3. I think those 2000 years were important for current galactic races, not only because of technology, but because of political progress that created possibility for united fleet for example. Also, economics.

May get back into this later.

[Jake71887]

Some of your arguments aren't exactly accurate, but I agree... It's be pretty improbably that organics would win a conventional war.

[Turkeysock]

We know, that's why I've come up with a brilliant plan. We invite them to a "Hurra you're almost done commiting galaxy wide genocide of all advanced space faring races" party, spike the punch with a lot of alcohol, and then shoot one of them and blame the other!

It's ingenious! They'll destroy themselves!

[IntoTheDarkness]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

In past cycles though, the reapers have attacked through the citadel and isolated each system. Here we have all the races united, which has probably not happened al that often. We also have the thanix cannons, and knowledge of the Repears and how to destroy them.

1. crucible plan was passed down the cycles. Do you think the secret of the citadel was kept secret when the bigger secret was passed down?

2. and 2,000 cycles is enough number to assume that there had been better circumstances than what we have now.

3. the very fact we can copy the reaper technology suggests that they are not very advanced than we are. it counterargues reaper cycle as a whole. they should have failed and got annahilated a long time ago.

[DarkBladeX98]

oh hai dere.
I guess that you consider a cain conventional??
Give everyone a cain, arm the fleet with thanix cannons and voila. Victory

[lillitheris]

N-uh. Conventional means are obviously a solution, since even in ME1 without any info on their tech and outdated weapons one was defeated. The ratio we're given with non-thanix weapons is 3:1. It's just a question of strategy and resources.

Whether previous cycles have been easier isn't known; the only thing we know is that the protheans were worse off (being just a single species and not having any warning for one) and even they managed to secret away a substantial research centre. Given that their biggest advantage of complete surprise and paralysis of the entire galaxy via Citadel->Relays was neutralized and Casper says nobody's ever made it that far would also imply that the conditions are the best they've been.


Edit: That is, it's plausible. Moreso than DNA rewriting anyway.

Edit2: Added a little highlighting to the fact you really need to take into account.

Modifié par lillitheris, 02 avril 2012 - 07:18 .

[F4H bandicoot]

1. Who's to say the reapers didn't invent the crucible
2. Not really, the protheans altered the Keepers, if they had to alter them to stopbopening the Citadel, they hadn't been altered before, meaning Harby always attacked through the Citadel.
3. We are based off their plans, ME cores, Relays, Citadel. Copying their tech isn't all that hard when it is all around you :')

[IntoTheDarkness]

ZLurps wrote...

Wow...

Well, I would add following to your thoughts.

There might be cycles that fail, Prothean cycle is example of that, no Reaper dreadnought was made of them. Then, however Reapers find other uses for them. The Collector drones was one use for Protheans, but there's also Reaper destroyers and fighters that may as well be constructed from space faring races that aren't "ascended" to dreadnought form.

What comes to technology... Rachni wars was most likely Sovereign's doing and it's attempt to gain access to the Citadel that was not responding it's command to open the mass relay in the dark space. Rachni wars were about 2000 years before the event's of ME3. I think those 2000 years were important for current galactic races, not only because of technology, but because of political progress that created possibility for united fleet for example. Also, economics.

May get back into this later.

I say your argument of 2,000 years is quite logical, given that reapers' only way of returning is using mass relays.

However, in ME3 we know reapers can just fly in using FTL from the dark space. Why didn't they just come flying in 2000 years ago? If they are as smart as they claim to be(as as Legion tells Shepard), what inevitable circumstances forced to them wait 2,000 years while Sovereign kept failing? Shouldn't Soveregin have foreseen this given his superintellect?

[Flextt]

So even if I did not break the cycle, at least, I gave the yahg a fighting chance? Awesome, I can totally relate to them.

On topic: Yes, I agree, a classic all-out space battle which results in a win is, from a narrative perspective, worse, because it requires close to no effort and imagination at all. Bioware is in a difficult position and I look forward to what PAX will reveal.

[Turkeysock]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

3. the very fact we can copy the reaper technology suggests that they are not very advanced than we are. it counterargues reaper cycle as a whole. they should have failed and got annahilated a long time ago.

Well, all of the current Mass Effect Tech that is in the game is low tech reaper tech. The reaper tech is just more advanced, but considering that it follows similar technology, it shouldn't be too hard to reverse engineer.

[acrb101]

Its all speculation though. We have no idea what happened during the reapings of any other species save the Protheans.

[sergio71785]

Ahhhhh! I'm sick of seeing the Thannix cannon arguement! You know who else has thannix cannons? The reapers! It's their weapon; ours is just a knock-off, that's smaller in size.

It took two hits of the thannix cannon to destroy the Collector ship, which is cruiser sized. The "thannix cannon" of the reapers one-shots any of our ships, including dreadnaughts.

Thannix cannons help, but they're not an advantage.

Modifié par sergio71785, 02 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[Flextt]

The actual problem with conventional battles against Reaper is that they outrange our fleets. And no, the Reapers' Thanix does not one-shot dreadnoughts.

[The Night Mammoth]

They said the same about the crew you assemble in ME1, and in ME2, and about getting to Illos, and about defeating Sovereign, and about getting through the Omega Relay, and about defeating the Collectors, and about the forces you unite in ME3.

Clearly, you must have failed in all those tasks because some people said they were impossible.

Oh wait, they actually showed you repeatedly overcoming supposedly impossible odds with reletive ease and with very good results.

See, it's all about what you show instead of what you say. You don't show Shepard defeating the Reapers by conventional means, tell you about it happening on Palaven, have Hackett say he's prepared for the eventuality, have everyone of your allies make plans for the aftermath and about how good your chances are, and have Javik tell you that his cycle's disadvantage is your greatest strength, all after showing you repeatedly doing something completely the opposite of what apparently can't be done, then tell you something contradictory and expect you to accept it without question. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 02 avril 2012 - 07:32 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

lillitheris wrote...

N-uh. Conventional means are obviously a solution, since even in ME1 without any info on their tech and outdated weapons one was defeated. The ratio we're given with non-thanix weapons is 3:1. It's just a question of strategy and resources.

Whether previous cycles have been easier isn't known; the only thing we know is that the protheans were worse off (being just a single species and not having any warning for one) and even they managed to secret away a substantial research centre. Given that their biggest advantage of complete surprise and paralysis of the entire galaxy via Citadel->Relays was neutralized and Casper says nobody's ever made it that far would also imply that the conditions are the best they've been.


Edit: That is, it's plausible. Moreso than DNA rewriting anyway.

Edit2: Added a little highlighting to the fact you really need to take into account.

Who's Casper?

and for your point, I believe it is plausible to assume that we were not in the most ideal position out of 2000 cycles.. See, cerberus could have helped Shepard, all ornagic races could have helped building the crucible without asking for Shepard's assistance, the organic races could have listened to Shepard.. and a lot more. Does that mean organics can defeat reapers in a conventional fight even being under an unideal position? 

And reapers, being the super intelligent, should have forseen these, too... I don't buy , but I will dislike head-to head fight victory even more than .

[Thornne]

Extremely unlikely? Sure. Impossible? No.

We've seen Reapers destroyed several times. There was nothing special about killing them. It is difficult, but not impossible.

[Justin2k]

I always saw it that Commander Shepard was the intangible.

Yeah it should be almost impossible. Almost. But led by Shepard, with his exceptional will and resolve, they would find a way.

Shepard always finds a way. Thats his/her "thing". Overcoming impossible odds and any obstacle. Even if it meant an I win button or a crucible or whatever, Shepard should have found a way to defeat them without evolving the world or whatever.

[avatar0]

Saying a man "is a master swordsman who has never lost a duel" does not allow you to make the logical conclusion that this man "will definitely win the next duel as well."

It also doesn't mean that the only way to defeat the said master swordsman is through "unconventional means such as poisoning."

Modifié par avatar0, 02 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

Flextt wrote...

So even if I did not break the cycle, at least, I gave the yahg a fighting chance? Awesome, I can totally relate to them.

On topic: Yes, I agree, a classic all-out space battle which results in a win is, from a narrative perspective, worse, because it requires close to no effort and imagination at all. Bioware is in a difficult position and I look forward to what PAX will reveal.

Yay for the shadow broker!

agreed on your statement; no imagination and a larger plothole that says the reapers were even more dumb than we thought... at least they were unaware of the crucible, but to say that they planned the whole cycle so that they can be defeated in a conventional fight... What. the. hell.

[sergio71785]

Flextt wrote...
And no, the Reapers' Thanix does not one-shot dreadnoughts.

"No dreadnaught has yet to survive a direct hit from the weapon."

Modifié par sergio71785, 02 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[Liber320]

Reapers depended heavily on the element of surpirse and either an non-unified or extremely centralized galaxy.

In this cycle, we:

- Were warned and found out about them before the attack

- Stopped them from using the Citadel and shutting down the Mass Relays

- Managed to destroy one of them and find another derelict one, using their technology to create shielding and weapons almost if not equal to theirs

- Had the entire galaxy (more or less) working together to stop them


So while it may be a long shot and would most definately result in an unfathomable amount of casualties, it could definately be done.