338 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

THIS, THIS, THIS

People seem to forget that a conventional war is not simply "ok, I have 4 ships to your one so I win"...

Hell, the game itself tries to hammer this home multiple times by mentioning these advantages that the reapers have....

Sure, you can trick/surprise the reapers into situations where you have the advantage but there's nothing that says the reapers can't do the same to you AND their advantages allow for a lot more situations that they the reapers would have a stronger position...

[Vigil_N7]

Also, you'd have to make the assumption that the united forces will actually obey commands to the letter and maintain a high morale.

Couple of reaper ships destroyed? No problem, they have no emotion, no fear, the reapers will continue undeterred.

What about the mercenaries however? Sure, Aria is a leader of sorts but these are the scum of the galaxy, are they really going to maintain loyalty in the face of immense machines of destruction?

Its a war people, there are more than likely going to be deserters, perhaps the salarians think they'd be better off escaping to live another day. Obviously there is no guarantee that they would desert, or anyone else for that matter, its just that there are a heck of a lot more factors involved than just numbers and technology.

[TheRealMithril]

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

Where did you get the idea that they have more ships? They massed all their ships at earth (it was even clearly stated in the game), did you miss that part of the story? The cutscene clearly shows they are inferior in numbers to the organics.

[SNascimento]

DarkShadow wrote...

[*]
Contra:
[list]
[*]If their barriers are down, they're easy prey for any of the alliance ships. This has been shown several times, and the codex even states that 4-5 dreadnought can take down a reaper even with barriers. So that one's a number game again.
[*]Additionally, the reapers themselves show that they're not that godlike. They rely heavily on guerilla tactics and stealthy warfare (...can't really find the english word for what I mean), meaning indoctrination to weaken the new species throughout the whole cycle, and using the citadel for a surprise attack. This clearly shows that the reapers have to prevent unnecessary casualties. Who knows, maybe in some of the cycles they barely managed to break their enemy, and got close to defeat. They can still stock up their forces after a close victory, when all major resistance is gone.
[*]This time, the reapers didn't have the element of surprise, which is a BIG factor.
[*]Arrogance. A very big problem, as the post before this one explains.

.
I think your contra list is way off:
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First: It's obvious that if the reapers would be an easy target if their barriers are off. The problem is taking them off. And the codex do say a few dreadnoughts could take down a reaper, which shouldn't be a surprise given how much firepower they have. But the thing is, the reapers dreadnought far outnumbered those of all species of the galaxy combined. Something like 20 to 1, maybe even more.
.
Second: I don't know from where you get the idea because since it's exactly the oppostive. The reapers attack with overwhelming force and simply crush anything in their way. Don't you remember the talk with that Turian on Palaven's moon (I don't remember if its Victus or just another general)? He goes as far as saying the strategist in him admire the reapers.
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Third: Agreed, but what does that mean? The reapers are nonetheless crushing the galaxy. What we gainned with the element of surprised was the Battle of Earth, a last stand, a big battle that could decide the war (because of the Crucible, of course). Javik says the protheans never had something similar.
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Fourth: I agree, in theory. And one can argue the reapers did lose some battles beacuse of this. Sending only one destroyer for both Tuchanka and Rannoch, for example, or even the Miracle of Palaven. But the first two were small battles, and in the third the reapers recovered the upper hand.
. 
In the end, there is no strong argument to support a conventional victory. All victories we had agaisnt the reapers were small ones, while the reapers are obliterating everything.
.
The biggest victory we had was the Miracle of Palaven, if you asked me if the galaxy could defeat the reapers just after I read that codex entry, I would still say no, but would have doubts. But then we meet Victus on Earth and he says Palaven is lost, that the only hope they have in on that Battle on Earth. So no, we cannot defeat them conventionally. 

[SNascimento]

TheRealMithril wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

Where did you get the idea that they have more ships? They massed all their ships at earth (it was even clearly stated in the game), did you miss that part of the story? The cutscene clearly shows they are inferior in numbers to the organics.

.
The reapers are all over the galaxy before the Battle of Earth, just look at the galaxy map.

[Sangheili_1337]

TheRealMithril wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

Where did you get the idea that they have more ships? They massed all their ships at earth (it was even clearly stated in the game), did you miss that part of the story? The cutscene clearly shows they are inferior in numbers to the organics.

Thats not true, they still have a presence in every star system known to the citadel races. Even if that wasnt the case, the organic fleet only had what, 100 dreadnaughts total? Dreadnaughts are really the only thing that matters, and they are vastly outclassed. The Reapers builds at least one capital class ship every cycle as a lower limit and has done so for millions of years. This would result in thousands of Reapers.

[Keldaurz]

TheRealMithril wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

Where did you get the idea that they have more ships? They massed all their ships at earth (it was even clearly stated in the game), did you miss that part of the story? The cutscene clearly shows they are inferior in numbers to the organics.

I don't know what game you were playing pal, but it's already said plenty times on ME3. Hell aside from "Hackett out" the other thing Hacket says more time than anything is "we can't win this war conventionally". 

Where you got the idea that they could be defeated on the long run by conventional war, shouldn't be what we ask to you, but instead, how did you miss all the hints that say you can't beat them conventionally ? 

For some people the cover of the game should say :


Mass effect 3 : The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally, not even with thanix upgrades on flyingsharksmountedbyraptorz ™

[IntoTheDarkness]

SiberETP wrote...

20k cycles is a lot of statistical evidence that beating the reapers conventionally doesn't work when the cycles follow the same pattern. It's a shame this cycle is so different, eh?

A) The invasion was delayed, some thousands of years if the Rachni wars really were one of Sovereign's attempts to activate the citadel
The galaxy was warned. We don't know if this happened before, but it's possible our degree of warning was greater than others.
C) Sovereign. His death and the subsequent reverse engineering of some reaper technology, Thanix weapons in particular, is almost certainly unique as it arises from A
D) We still have the citadel. Weather or not the galactic government is always based on the Citadel(it seems unavoidably that at least occasionally civilization passes it up or isn't unified), this means we retain the use of the relay network. That means we can mass our forces and pick off lone reapers, and the reapers can't just avoid/starve out/hit and run at their leisure, we're on a much more equal strategic footing
E) The crucible. All other points are independent of ME3, since this is fundementally an argument about how ME3 should have happened, so how ME3 did present the reapers should be largely ignored in favor of how they should have been presented. However, the crucible, either as it is or as it could have been, is an important idea. It is a culmination of all previous attempts to resist the reapers, meaning that while there is no evident variation from reaper to reaper, no advancement with new generations, there is a steady if slow increase in resistance from the harvested species, either in the form of this specific device or in the form of the information and relics they leave behind. We don't have to be especially lucky, though we are, we just need to be at the tipping point where that resistance overcomes the static Reaper tactics and technology.

Maybe with the technology, performance, and numbers we're shown it isn't possible to beat the reapers. I disagree, but I'm not going to have that argument. But if you want to argue that statistics and pre-ME3 information demonstrates the reapers as utterly unbeatable and any other portrayal would have been inconsistent and illogical, I will categorically disagree with you.

Great counterargument.

[SiberETP]

Keldaurz wrote...
I don't know what game you were playing pal, but it's already said plenty times on ME3. Hell aside from "Hackett out" the other thing Hacket says more time than anything is "we can't win this war conventionally". 

Where you got the idea that they could be defeated on the long run by conventional war, shouldn't be what we ask to you, but instead, how did you miss all the hints that say you can't beat them conventionally ? 

Total Biscuit wrote...

Oh for the record, the list of things we are told are impossible includes:

The Rachni surviving.
Finding Ilos
Getting to Ilos.
Stopping Saren.
Joker dropping the Mako in a 20ft area.
Saren Getting to the citadel.
The Reapers existence.
Defeating Sovereign.
Overcoming indoctrination (Hi Shiala).
Getting through the Omega 4 Relay.
Surviving stopping the Collectors.
Not taking any casualties while destroying the Collectors.
Stopping the Reapers while keeping your morals.
Defeating the Shadowbroker.
Destroying Mass Relays.
A Prothian surviving 50,000 years in stasis.
Destroying Reapers via conventional means.

In a series like mass effect, telling a player something is impossible is actually telling them "This is going to be totally sweet when you pull it off.", not telling them "Don't even think about it.".

Modifié par SiberETP, 02 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[Keldaurz]

None of those list can be even remotely compared to the reapers. Not. Even. Close. I already answered to those ones, they are unlikely on how they are described to you, but not impossible. None of them.

Hell, even some of those is something you know you are going to achieve.

Edit - And still, on none of those get described the way the reapers at described on ME3, and how you get hints from every possible source how much they are going to beat you if you try. 

But maybe it's because i didn't get the feeling the series was about Shepard pulling off the impossible, but trying to stop the reapers with whatever means are neccesary (arrival ) but knowing the galaxy isn't ready to wage war against them. I like to think my Shepard isn't a herpderp actually.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 11:17 .

[Yttrian]

The Reapers always entered the galaxy via the citadel, then deactivated/activated the relays entirely for their own use.
The Reapers used the citadel to obtain all useful information on every species and system.
They left every species/fleet without intel, supplies, personel; then proceeded use their full fleet system by system.

And now they face a combined force of a united and informed galaxy and you're telling me we are utterly helpless?

[The Night Mammoth]

Keldaurz wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

Where did you get the idea that they have more ships? They massed all their ships at earth (it was even clearly stated in the game), did you miss that part of the story? The cutscene clearly shows they are inferior in numbers to the organics.

I don't know what game you were playing pal, but it's already said plenty times on ME3. Hell aside from "Hackett out" the other thing Hacket says more time than anything is "we can't win this war conventionally".

How many times are you told similar things throughout the game? Refer to list a few pages back. 

What you are told bears no meaning against what you are shown. You are shown the Reapers being fought and defeated by conventional means, therefore what Hackett says is entirely irrelevant. 

Where you got the idea that they could be defeated on the long run by conventional war, shouldn't be what we ask to you, but instead, how did you miss all the hints that say you can't beat them conventionally ?

Numerous times. 

But that doesn't mean anything, clearly. The narritive establishes it as a possibility by using the defiance of fate and impossibility as a prominent theme, it's literally the driving force behind the previous two games. 

For some people the cover of the game should say :

Mass effect 3 : The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally, not even with thanix upgrades on flyingsharksmountedbyraptorz ™

It could, but that would only add to the problem. 

The box can be covered in that message, but it won't change what the game shows you over 100 hours of game play. 

[IntoTheDarkness]

One more thing. were the reapers playing nice? Why didn't they just nuke the important military facilities on earth and send seeker swarm to harvest humans? this way would enable them to collect more humans intact(since resistance dies out quickly) and so much faster.

[The Night Mammoth]

Keldaurz wrote...

None of those list can be even remotely compared to the reapers. Not. Even. Close. I already answered to those ones, they are unlikely on how they are described to you, but not impossible. None of them.

Hell, even some of those is something you know you are going to achieve.

It's a matter of principle. They're all impossible, THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE. There are no degrees of impossibility, what the task actually comes down to is irrelevant. 

Unless you think those things aren't impossible, which means what you are told doesn't matter and what you are shown has more meaning, which means what the game tells you doesn't matter, and your argument falls through. 

[IntoTheDarkness]

I believe reapers do evolve.

Their less brother, Geth, with less personality/complexity(since they use census system instead of individual brain) managed to evolve on their own as Shepard says.

Why wouldn't the reapers advance themselves in terms of technology?

Besides, Harbinger is the oldest and the largest and the most advanced at the same time. (look how fast he fires his double-razors) If organic has become more powerful through each cycle, so have the reapers. Unless reapers stopped developing ever sicne the first reaper harbinger for some reason

[SiberETP]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

SiberETP wrote...

Great counterargument.

This is the internet, so I have to check. Sarcasm Y/N?

[Keldaurz]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What you are told bears no meaning against what you are shown. You are shown the Reapers being fought and defeated by conventional means, therefore what Hackett says is entirely irrelevant.

Numerous times. 

But that doesn't mean anything, clearly. The narritive establishes it as a possibility by using the defiance of fate and impossibility as a prominent theme, it's literally the driving force behind the previous two games.  

Actually you see some "minor scale" where you win a skirmish. There isn't any information about a major victory against the reapers by traditional warfare. Hell even Palaven is lost which was one of those little miracles.

That's how you got it. I got it, okey your galaxy is screwed. Your only way to survive is the crucible. And that's the whole theme of the game, prepare the crucible and gather enough forces to be able to defend the crucible. Oh well, that's not what i got, it's actually the game's narrative.

So well, we will have to agree on disagree.


There's no reference on doing conventional war on the game to try to win. Not a single one, so it isn't comparable to the list of "unlikely" but not impossible posted before.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 11:27 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

What makes you believe that reapers don't get stronger with each cycle when geth can evolve? I always thought the harvesting was the way reapers advance themselves by merging more organic DNA/brains into one shell and share the knowledge with other reapers.

If reapers do evolve, than it is clearly impossible to beat tham by conventional means no matter how prepared we are at this cycle.

[Keldaurz]

SiberETP wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

SiberETP wrote...

Great counterargument.

This is the internet, so I have to check. Sarcasm Y/N?

N ;p

[Hudathan]

Bioware has already addressed all of this in game. If you stand around at the end without taking one of the three choices presented to you, the Reapers basically destroy the Crucible leading to a non-standard game over which suggests that the fleet was wiped out and we lose.

You got the entire fleet telling you during the battle that you better hurry up and get the Crucible ready to go before it's too late. They weren't yelling yee-haw and winning on their own.

[Orthodox Infidel]

SiberETP wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Many disappointed fans wrote...

Thanix cannons

I find it funny that people complain that the Crucible is a giant plot device yet their counter argument is thousands of smaller plot devices.

One is magic doohickey that makes plot happen, designed by many different species that evidently didn't all know what it was ultimately inteded to do, comperable in size to the largest structure we know of in the setting and built over a couple of weeks.

The other is a weapon reverse engineered from recovered advanced technology with years of in-universe time for deployment and clearly stated and defined decisive advantages over existing weapons.

Everything involved in the story is a plot device. Some of them make sense, others don't.

No. One is a plot device that ends the entire trilogy and picks which cutscene you see. The other is a plot device that saves... *runs off to check the Suicide Mission flowchart*

Thane, Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt, Jack, or Samara/Morinth, in that order.

[NReed106]

Narrative coherence can hold together better with a conventional victory due to a massive fleet than space magic

[Keldaurz]

Hudathan wrote...

Bioware has already addressed all of this in game. If you stand around at the end without taking one of the three choices presented to you, the Reapers basically destroy the Crucible leading to a non-standard game over which suggests that the fleet was wiped out and we lose.

You got the entire fleet telling you during the battle that you better hurry up and get the Crucible ready to go before it's too late. They weren't yelling yee-haw and winning on their own.

Pretty much this.

[IntoTheDarkness]

SiberETP wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

SiberETP wrote...

Great counterargument.

This is the internet, so I have to check. Sarcasm Y/N?

No.

We are on different sides of argument but you presented your point with clarity and supporting reasons.

It was a compliment because I spent 2 hours on this thread arguing with someone who kept throwing mockeries and counterarguments made of 1 line. I just felt it's good to have someone who present their case with logical supportings, that's all.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 02 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[Keldaurz]

Oh and by the way, the "they didn't have the surprise" isn't entirely true. They already have the surprise factor because the galaxy didn't believe their existence till they knocked on their doors, so we weren't prepared for them.

Quoting Shepard :

Not by a long shot.