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[SovereignWillReturn]

Keldaurz wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Ending cutscene space battle:

Dreadnaughts and Cruisers are shown to maneuver and DODGE Reaper fire, Reaper aiming isnt all that great.

And Two Alliance cruisers and a Turian Dreadnaught mortally wounded a Reaper with the first Salvo. Within 10 seconds the Reaper was imploding. A destroyer bite the dust from orbital bombardment, which has about 20% of it's actually impact power from the firing orbital ships due to mass loss with friction+heat.

Mass Effect 3 made Reapers VERY killable, and in the final cutscene, there were A LOT more Galaxy ships than there were Reapers. It's likely they could have taken on the Reapers Ship for ship and maybe won.

Bioware retconned Sovereign's invincibility, so I say a bullet for bullet killing of Reapers is totally possible.

So we should just ignore the fact that you have the whole fleets on the galaxy united at earth's battle  to buy hammer time because you get told a few times that's what they are actually doing, and they know they can't win, and they yell because they can't hold much longer and need the crucible into position as fast as possible.

And say you can defeat the reapers conventionally just because you saw a cinematic where one dreadnought dodge one salvo from a reaper, that reaper get destroyed and then in that same cinematic you see how other 2 turian/alliance dreadnoughts get destroyed after that.

Logics...

And by your logic, we should just roll over, let our entire fleet burn and die, and not try to win over the Reaper fleet?
And by your logic still, you say the Reapers are completely invincible when you see one get blown apart.
So by then your logic, you must want our fleet to twiddle are thumbs and get picked off one by one without actually fighting to win, rather to buy the 40% of Hammer forces time to get Eaten by Reaper Forces.
By all of this Logic and your willing fighting spirit, you must live in France.

[Keldaurz]

Any of the things you listed can't be compared to facing the entire reaper force. Not even close. None of them. Noone of them was told ever like something really impossible in a way you would say "okey no way you are pulling that off", but very unlikely.

Defeating the reapers by sheer horsepower is something i don't really get like "unlikely" but impossible. Maybe it's different to each individual playing the game *shrug*.

[dreman9999]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Ending cutscene space battle:

Dreadnaughts and Cruisers are shown to maneuver and DODGE Reaper fire, Reaper aiming isnt all that great.

I would like a confermtion of this....Also, Shepard, after the last run to the conduit, would say other wise.

youtu.be/tLlAObjR-gs
3:45 for start of battle. Notice how your fleet is about 3x to 4x larger than reaper force.
4:55 for bad reaper aiming, Five shots missed, one even looked like a hit but didn't scratch the Alliance ship.

And then a Turian Cruiser and a human Dreadnaught blow a Reaper to critical damage.

Those beans blew up the ships behind what you think the reapers was aiming for.

[xxskyshadowxx]

If only the writers had established that the Reapers had their own individualized code that could be manipulated.....oh wait, they did. If only someone had access to the code, could understand it, and then use it...oh wait, the Geth. If only you could get the Geth to fight on your side, and modify or shut down the Reaper code and end the inva--oh....wait...

[Sc2mashimaro]

ZLurps wrote...

KiroKatashi wrote...

Thresher Maw launchers would not be considered conventional would they?

No.

But I think we can all agree that we want to see this.

[SovereignWillReturn]

dreman9999 wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Ending cutscene space battle:

Dreadnaughts and Cruisers are shown to maneuver and DODGE Reaper fire, Reaper aiming isnt all that great.

I would like a confermtion of this....Also, Shepard, after the last run to the conduit, would say other wise.

youtu.be/tLlAObjR-gs
3:45 for start of battle. Notice how your fleet is about 3x to 4x larger than reaper force.
4:55 for bad reaper aiming, Five shots missed, one even looked like a hit but didn't scratch the Alliance ship.

And then a Turian Cruiser and a human Dreadnaught blow a Reaper to critical damage.

Those beans blew up the ships behind what you think the reapers was aiming for.

I didn't see an explosion, did you?
Ah, oh well. Who cares. Heh.

[Keldaurz]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

And by your logic, we should just roll over, let our entire fleet burn and die, and not try to win over the Reaper fleet?
And by your logic still, you say the Reapers are completely invincible when you see one get blown apart.
So by then your logic, you must want our fleet to twiddle are thumbs and get picked off one by one without actually fighting to win, rather to buy the 40% of Hammer forces time to get Eaten by Reaper Forces.
By all of this Logic and your willing fighting spirit, you must live in France.

Huh ?

No, by my logic they were fighting and dying, sacryficing themselves to buy Hammer time to be able to open the Citadel, making their resolution to fight even more heroic knowing there's no way they can defeat them. I don't want them to stop fighting ******.

By my logic i don't say one single reaper is invincible, but the whole reaper forces are told to everything we listen on ME3 to surpass whatever all our forces combined can offer, so our only chance is the crucible.

And it's not my logic, is just following the theme of the whole game. I mean, i could be delusional and want it to be whatever i want it to be. 

I live on Spain, and here we invented the guerrilla tactics to kick french and Napoleon out of our country, by unconventional means. And by the way, you are not only dumb, but a racist

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

They why do people think if we use with every ship, we would automaticly have a chance of winning....The thanix cannon is a turian weapon but even have it, they were pushed back by the reapers.

*lol* Which is one of the Complaints we had about this Game. The Turians have this Weapon, but never use it in ME3. In ME3, the Alliance had this Weapon as well, but never used it.

Let me ask you this, why do you just assume that the Reapers can't be defeated by conventional Means? Especially when the previous two games were about succesfully doing what others thought was impossible.
The Thanix Cannon was presented as our Ace in the Hole. The Main Weapon of the Reapers, Reverse-Engineered.

Would the Thanix Cannon assure Victory? No! Would it make a difference? Possibly!
No one says that the Reapers should be easy to defeat, but pulling a Plot Device out of your A.. uh, Hat as the unconventional Miracle-Weapon to defeat the Reapers isn't really the way to go either

[dreman9999]

 There also this little fact people are missiong out on..
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

The Oculus[/b] is a fast-moving device used by the Reapers as a space and atmospheric superiority craft. They were first seen being used by the Collectors to protect the Collector base.Oculi are cybernetic constructs, being piloted (in the case of those used by the Collectors) by a single Collector drone. Each drone is stripped down until only its nervous system remains, with the remaining tissue then being hardened to withstand vacuum and integrated into an Oculus shell.Oculi possess powerful beam weapons, similar to other Reaper and Collector weaponry, and can invade an enemy ship by cutting into its hull afterjettisoning part of its armor.


Reapers can make swarms of these.

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They why do people think if we use with every ship, we would automaticly have a chance of winning....The thanix cannon is a turian weapon but even have it, they were pushed back by the reapers.

*lol* Which is one of the Complaints we had about this Game. The Turians have this Weapon, but never use it in ME3. In ME3, the Alliance had this Weapon as well, but never used it.

Let me ask you this, why do you just assume that the Reapers can't be defeated by conventional Means? Especially when the previous two games were about succesfully doing what others thought was impossible.
The Thanix Cannon was presented as our Ace in the Hole. The Main Weapon of the Reapers, Reverse-Engineered.

Would the Thanix Cannon assure Victory? No! Would it make a difference? Possibly!
No one says that the Reapers should be easy to defeat, but pulling a Plot Device out of your A.. uh, Hat as the unconventional Miracle-Weapon to defeat the Reapers isn't really the way to go either

Look in the last page...Some already awnsered my question....And out of it an even more delema came up. 

[ZLurps]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Did you read what I said?
Let me rephrase the question...Have we even seen a reaper ship destoyed by thanix cannos?

Since the only known Thanix is on the Normandy and the Normandy never used it against the Reapers, I'll go with No!

They why do people think if we use with every ship, we would automaticly have a chance of winning....The thanix cannon is a turian weapon but even have it, they were pushed back by the reapers.

It says in codex that Alliance and Quarian fleets have Thanix weapons.

The thing is, Thanix is not super weapon giving like 10 x firepower, or even equal to Reaper. It's explained in codex too. Thanix relies in ships drive core. Even if Thanix technology were up to par with Reapers, drive core technology isn't.

Basically it doubles the fire power, which gave galactic races more time, Turians for example weren't wiped out instantly, but are able to fight back.

[Keldaurz]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Ending cutscene space battle:

Dreadnaughts and Cruisers are shown to maneuver and DODGE Reaper fire, Reaper aiming isnt all that great.

I would like a confermtion of this....Also, Shepard, after the last run to the conduit, would say other wise.

youtu.be/tLlAObjR-gs
3:45 for start of battle. Notice how your fleet is about 3x to 4x larger than reaper force.
4:55 for bad reaper aiming, Five shots missed, one even looked like a hit but didn't scratch the Alliance ship.

And then a Turian Cruiser and a human Dreadnaught blow a Reaper to critical damage.

Those beans blew up the ships behind what you think the reapers was aiming for.

I didn't see an explosion, did you?
Ah, oh well. Who cares. Heh.

Oh i saw a reaper getting explosions like, and then going "**** off mode" and destroying the dreadnought/cruiser in front of him.

[ZLurps]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Ending cutscene space battle:

Dreadnaughts and Cruisers are shown to maneuver and DODGE Reaper fire, Reaper aiming isnt all that great.

And Two Alliance cruisers and a Turian Dreadnaught mortally wounded a Reaper with the first Salvo. Within 10 seconds the Reaper was imploding. A destroyer bite the dust from orbital bombardment, which has about 20% of it's actually impact power from the firing orbital ships due to mass loss with friction+heat.

Mass Effect 3 made Reapers VERY killable, and in the final cutscene, there were A LOT more Galaxy ships than there were Reapers. It's likely they could have taken on the Reapers Ship for ship and maybe won.

Bioware retconned Sovereign's invincibility, so I say a bullet for bullet killing of Reapers is totally possible.

So we should just ignore the fact that you have the whole fleets on the galaxy united at earth's battle  to buy hammer time because you get told a few times that's what they are actually doing, and they know they can't win, and they yell because they can't hold much longer and need the crucible into position as fast as possible.

And say you can defeat the reapers conventionally just because you saw a cinematic where one dreadnought dodge one salvo from a reaper, that reaper get destroyed and then in that same cinematic you see how other 2 turian/alliance dreadnoughts get destroyed after that.

Logics...

And by your logic, we should just roll over, let our entire fleet burn and die, and not try to win over the Reaper fleet?
And by your logic still, you say the Reapers are completely invincible when you see one get blown apart.
So by then your logic, you must want our fleet to twiddle are thumbs and get picked off one by one without actually fighting to win, rather to buy the 40% of Hammer forces time to get Eaten by Reaper Forces.
By all of this Logic and your willing fighting spirit, you must live in France.

In the end, those men and women fighting in those ships were died for nothing, if Shepard weren't able to complete his mission.

[dreman9999]

x

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[ZLurps]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

KiroKatashi wrote...

Thresher Maw launchers would not be considered conventional would they?

No.

But I think we can all agree that we want to see this.

DLC weapon!

[ZLurps]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They why do people think if we use with every ship, we would automaticly have a chance of winning....The thanix cannon is a turian weapon but even have it, they were pushed back by the reapers.

*lol* Which is one of the Complaints we had about this Game. The Turians have this Weapon, but never use it in ME3. In ME3, the Alliance had this Weapon as well, but never used it.

Let me ask you this, why do you just assume that the Reapers can't be defeated by conventional Means? Especially when the previous two games were about succesfully doing what others thought was impossible.
The Thanix Cannon was presented as our Ace in the Hole. The Main Weapon of the Reapers, Reverse-Engineered.

Would the Thanix Cannon assure Victory? No! Would it make a difference? Possibly!
No one says that the Reapers should be easy to defeat, but pulling a Plot Device out of your A.. uh, Hat as the unconventional Miracle-Weapon to defeat the Reapers isn't really the way to go either

Does this "Thanix cannon is not used" thing come from cinematics? Because without Thanix fleets shouldn't be doing as well as they do.

[SiberETP]

20k cycles is a lot of statistical evidence that beating the reapers conventionally doesn't work when the cycles follow the same pattern. It's a shame this cycle is so different, eh?

A) The invasion was delayed, some thousands of years if the Rachni wars really were one of Sovereign's attempts to activate the citadel
The galaxy was warned. We don't know if this happened before, but it's possible our degree of warning was greater than others.
C) Sovereign. His death and the subsequent reverse engineering of some reaper technology, Thanix weapons in particular, is almost certainly unique as it arises from A
D) We still have the citadel. Weather or not the galactic government is always based on the Citadel(it seems unavoidably that at least occasionally civilization passes it up or isn't unified), this means we retain the use of the relay network. That means we can mass our forces and pick off lone reapers, and the reapers can't just avoid/starve out/hit and run at their leisure, we're on a much more equal strategic footing
E) The crucible. All other points are independent of ME3, since this is fundementally an argument about how ME3 should have happened, so how ME3 did present the reapers should be largely ignored in favor of how they should have been presented. However, the crucible, either as it is or as it could have been, is an important idea. It is a culmination of all previous attempts to resist the reapers, meaning that while there is no evident variation from reaper to reaper, no advancement with new generations, there is a steady if slow increase in resistance from the harvested species, either in the form of this specific device or in the form of the information and relics they leave behind. We don't have to be especially lucky, though we are, we just need to be at the tipping point where that resistance overcomes the static Reaper tactics and technology.

Maybe with the technology, performance, and numbers we're shown it isn't possible to beat the reapers. I disagree, but I'm not going to have that argument. But if you want to argue that statistics and pre-ME3 information demonstrates the reapers as utterly unbeatable and any other portrayal would have been inconsistent and illogical, I will categorically disagree with you.

Modifié par SiberETP, 02 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Keldaurz]

ZLurps wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They why do people think if we use with every ship, we would automaticly have a chance of winning....The thanix cannon is a turian weapon but even have it, they were pushed back by the reapers.

*lol* Which is one of the Complaints we had about this Game. The Turians have this Weapon, but never use it in ME3. In ME3, the Alliance had this Weapon as well, but never used it.

Let me ask you this, why do you just assume that the Reapers can't be defeated by conventional Means? Especially when the previous two games were about succesfully doing what others thought was impossible.
The Thanix Cannon was presented as our Ace in the Hole. The Main Weapon of the Reapers, Reverse-Engineered.

Would the Thanix Cannon assure Victory? No! Would it make a difference? Possibly!
No one says that the Reapers should be easy to defeat, but pulling a Plot Device out of your A.. uh, Hat as the unconventional Miracle-Weapon to defeat the Reapers isn't really the way to go either

Does this "Thanix cannon is not used" thing come from cinematics? Because without Thanix fleets shouldn't be doing as well as they do.

You don't see any ship doing it on the animations, so you can only do some specu... wait for it.... LATION! about if they used them or not.

[Total Biscuit]

Keldaurz: "I live on Spain, and here we invented the guerrilla tactics to kick french and Napoleon out of our country, by unconventional means. And by the way, you are not only dumb, but a racist :d"

Much as I hate to bring this up, being allies in the conflict and all, but the guerrilla tactics used by the Spanish in the Napoleonic war werent quite as instrumental as Arthur Wellesly leading the British army which was constantly kicking the crap out of the French army was. Also the British navy annihilating the French navy at Trafalgar ensuring a constant supply line through Portugal throughout the entire war.

Also guerilla tactics go back at least as far as the slave revolt led by Spartacus against the Romans, if not Hannibal of Carthage also against the Romans, and even arguably early in numerous other occasional the same tactics were employed in ancient history.

Modifié par Total Biscuit, 02 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Bhatair]

That's why they brought in the Macguffin

I mean Crucible. The rage over the ending just comes from what the writers chose to do with it.

[DJBare]

The thresher maw is my favourite in taking down a reaper, an organic with no thanix weapon, okay, maybe not conventional but certainly not space magic either.

[Bleachrude]

Even if the Reaper had EXACTLY the same number of capital ships and had EXACTLY the same number of destroyers and had EXACTLY the same number of oculus as fighters as the combined galaxy fleet, I would still think the galaxy has no chance of beating them conventionally.


The Reapers have crazy logistical and strategic advantages in there favour.

Better FTL, no need to discharge, no logistics train, no command structure to disrupt. The fact that there soldiers are your people meaning you actually have to defend...

Unless you make the Reapers stupid as hell or trick them (and that should only work a few times), the reapers will always set the battle conditions in their favour...

I think people are assuming that since the reapers in previous cycles used the citadel to cut off centralized authority that means they couldn't defeat the galaxy forces without it.....I dont believe that is a good assumption.

It certainly makes it EASIER for the reapers but I doubt they are completely worthless without it.

[Apollo-XL5]

IT is possible to win conventionally. IT would be a very bloody, very hard battle, but it is possible since the allies know afew reaper weak spots they can take advantage of.

And personally i think if they can take harbinger out of the equation, then the rest of the reapers wouldnt be a problem.

[lillitheris]

Keldaurz wrote...

Any of the things you listed can't be compared to facing the entire reaper force..

Agreed. Which is why it's stupid, galactically speaking, to commit to a single battle even if it means sacrificing the Sol system. That's a question of strategy, though, as is building the Crucible instead of a lot of warships.

[Keldaurz]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Keldaurz: "I live on Spain, and here we invented the guerrilla tactics to kick french and Napoleon out of our country, by unconventional means. And by the way, you are not only dumb, but a racist :d"

Much as I hate to bring this up, being allies in the conflict and all, but the guerrilla tactics used by the Spanish in the Napoleonic war werent quite as instrumental as Arthur Wellesly leading the British army which was constantly kicking the crap out of the French army was. Also the British navy annihilating the French navy at Trafalgar ensuring a constant supply line through Portugal throughout the entire war.

Also guerilla tactics go back at least as far as the slave revolt led by Spartacus against the Romans, if not Hannibal of Carthage also against the Romans, and even arguably early in numerous other occasional the same tactics were employed in ancient history.

Employed doesn't mean succesfully achieved. Of course there's was outsider's help, but doesn't stop the fact it marked a more refined precedent as a viable tactic to use to collapse an entire invaded nation, something that never really happened before and thus was totally dismissed before for most generals. Let's stop de-railing the thread anyways

Modifié par Keldaurz, 02 avril 2012 - 10:06 .