338 réponses à ce sujet

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

 There also this little fact people are missiong out on..
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

The Oculus[/b] is a fast-moving device used by the Reapers as a space and atmospheric superiority craft. They were first seen being used by the Collectors to protect the Collector base.Oculi are cybernetic constructs, being piloted (in the case of those used by the Collectors) by a single Collector drone. Each drone is stripped down until only its nervous system remains, with the remaining tissue then being hardened to withstand vacuum and integrated into an Oculus shell.Oculi possess powerful beam weapons, similar to other Reaper and Collector weaponry, and can invade an enemy ship by cutting into its hull afterjettisoning part of its armor.


Reapers can make swarms of these.

 Fine, the Reapers can't be defeated by Conventional Means in ME3. Why? Because the Writers wanted it that way.
Sovereign was a Reaper. Did he have these Oculus? No!

In ME3 part of our Fleet are Fighters. And suddenly the Reapers have a perfect Defense for it. Why? Because the Writers wanted it that way.

In ME1 and 2 we are like Ants to the Reapers. We are NO Threat to them at all. For a billion years, they shut down the Citadel and then completely overwhelmed everyone. And now suddenly the Reapers produce Swarms of Oculus to defend themselves against Ants?

There are no Oculus in the First assault on Earth, or in the Attack on Palaven, Tuchanka or Rannoch. They first appear at the Battle for Earth (disregarding Collector Base). Convenient, eh?

Now tell me Honestly. Based on the Information we had in ME1 and 2 and more than halfway through ME3, did you think a Victory with Conventional Warfare was completely impossible?

[Der Bibliothekar]

"There is no problem which cannot be solved by a suitable application of
high explosives."
-- William W. Hughes

[TheGreenAlloy]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

In past cycles though, the reapers have attacked through the citadel and isolated each system. Here we have all the races united, which has probably not happened al that often. We also have the thanix cannons, and knowledge of the Repears and how to destroy them.

[ZLurps]

Keldaurz wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They why do people think if we use with every ship, we would automaticly have a chance of winning....The thanix cannon is a turian weapon but even have it, they were pushed back by the reapers.

*lol* Which is one of the Complaints we had about this Game. The Turians have this Weapon, but never use it in ME3. In ME3, the Alliance had this Weapon as well, but never used it.

Let me ask you this, why do you just assume that the Reapers can't be defeated by conventional Means? Especially when the previous two games were about succesfully doing what others thought was impossible.
The Thanix Cannon was presented as our Ace in the Hole. The Main Weapon of the Reapers, Reverse-Engineered.

Would the Thanix Cannon assure Victory? No! Would it make a difference? Possibly!
No one says that the Reapers should be easy to defeat, but pulling a Plot Device out of your A.. uh, Hat as the unconventional Miracle-Weapon to defeat the Reapers isn't really the way to go either

Does this "Thanix cannon is not used" thing come from cinematics? Because without Thanix fleets shouldn't be doing as well as they do.

You don't see any ship doing it on the animations, so you can only do some specu... wait for it.... LATION! about if they used them or not.

I just wonder if it goes under artistic license, if you imagine space battle scene with ships shooting beams I think you can pretty much picture it to yourself why beams, if they are like hundreds of them on screen, are not necessarily great idea.

That said, it wouldn't be the first time cinematics dept. get's something wrong. In ME1 Turian cruisers were supposed to be dreadnoughts, but something went awry with communications and cinematic crew down scaled model to cruiser size. (That's how Turian cruiser design was born).

I really should sweep through ME3 codex, someone in other thread posted something about report or news item, where Turian ships were said to claimed victory against isolated Reaper because of Thanix technology. I never went to look if it really is in the game or not.

[TheRealMithril]

OP: You are assuming that time actually equals longer development time for weapons etc.. It doesn't. And I will top you with a bit of a history lesson. China (after having invented the gunpowder and cannons) became so sure of their invincibility that they stopped development of their weapons.

They simply believed that nothing could touch them. In short, they became arrogant. Skip a few hundred years forward. Along came western colonials, now also equipped with cannons and gunpowder. The key difference however, is that western nations had been forced to develop their weapons due to constant wars among themselves. So by now, their gunpowder, cannons were so much stronger than the Chinese counterpart that it wasn't even a fair fight any more. Colonial troops made short work of Chinese defenses and castles that have stood for a thousand years.

The key point here is that the Chinese nation at that time were absolutely convinced over their superiority. And why shouldn't they? Nothing have ever threatened them. Any foreign power they met in battle have lost against them. That is, until the colonials came.

Nature have a way to throw everything right back at you when you feel nothing will happen, I don't think for a minute that Reapers would be any different. In fact I feel that they are so full of themselves, and so completely arrogant about their superiority that they don't even bother about developing in any major way. Even Shepard as an individual have taken reapers down.

So no. I don't agree with you on this. I think Reapers finally got the walloping that have been long coming. Also, keep in mind that this (according to documented lore) is the first time the galaxy have united against the reapers. That alone makes everything a whole different ballgame. A concentrated force can pick their battles. I don't care how strong the reapers are. When a few hundred ships are firing on one Reaper at a time, it *will* get the job done. 10000+ reapers spread thin throughout a galaxy isn't much use in that context.

[DarkShadow]

For me, this discussion is kinda useless, because we're missing some vital information here: numbers. We don't know how many reapers exist, and we don't really know how many battleships with sufficient firepower to hurt a reaper exist. The game is very vague on this.

Concerning reapers only being defeatable by unconventional means.

Pro:

• As long as they have their barriers up, reapers are far superior to any battleship, Thanix or not.
• Additionally, having completed 2000+ cycles, it's easy to assume that there are a lot of reapers, seeing how many civilizations they must have harvested.
• While this is still speculation, everyone should see that a victory with a conventional battle is impossible, if there aren't A LOT more dreadnoughts.

Contra:

• If their barriers are down, they're easy prey for any of the alliance ships. This has been shown several times, and the codex even states that 4-5 dreadnought can take down a reaper even with barriers. So that one's a number game again.
• Additionally, the reapers themselves show that they're not that godlike. They rely heavily on guerilla tactics and stealthy warfare (...can't really find the english word for what I mean), meaning indoctrination to weaken the new species throughout the whole cycle, and using the citadel for a surprise attack. This clearly shows that the reapers have to prevent unnecessary casualties. Who knows, maybe in some of the cycles they barely managed to break their enemy, and got close to defeat. They can still stock up their forces after a close victory, when all major resistance is gone.
• This time, the reapers didn't have the element of surprise, which is a BIG factor.
• Arrogance. A very big problem, as the post before this one explains.

Concerning the crucible:
Yeah, the crucible kinda was a weak idea, comes out of nowhere. From a storywriting perspective, BW really should have put a hint towards this in ME2. However, I could accept it, because I realized that this was more or less the only solution because BW made the reapers a little bit too strong. What I disliked was that "everyone added to it, but no one understood what it does". Yeah, I call bs on that one. How the hell should you add something to a device of which you don't know ANYTHING?

Personally, I would have liked the crucible to attack the reapers minds (-> so they lose their barriers), or just  remove their barriers with some.... well, space magic I guess.

So after that, the EMS can decide if you can win or not.

Modifié par DarkShadow, 02 avril 2012 - 10:11 .

[Yokokorama]

Yeah, beating the Reapers via conventional means without weakening them in some way is for sure. However, I always thought that the Crucible should have been something that weakened the Reapers enough for our fleet to beat them conventionally. For example, the Crucible could take down all the Reaper's shields. Or perhaps it could control asteroids (like the one in The Arrival) and send down an asteroid storm towards the Reapers. Then our fleet could take them down once they've been weakened.

I basically hated the idea of an insta-win button.  It should have been something that helped us, but not did all the work for us.  It makes me feel like that fleet was for nothing.

Modifié par Yokokorama, 02 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 There also this little fact people are missiong out on..
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

The Oculus[/b] is a fast-moving device used by the Reapers as a space and atmospheric superiority craft. They were first seen being used by the Collectors to protect the Collector base.Oculi are cybernetic constructs, being piloted (in the case of those used by the Collectors) by a single Collector drone. Each drone is stripped down until only its nervous system remains, with the remaining tissue then being hardened to withstand vacuum and integrated into an Oculus shell.Oculi possess powerful beam weapons, similar to other Reaper and Collector weaponry, and can invade an enemy ship by cutting into its hull afterjettisoning part of its armor.


Reapers can make swarms of these.

There are no Oculus in the First assault on Earth...

....Ummmm...http://www.youtube.c...yx1xZbEI#t=657s

[dreman9999]

DarkShadow wrote...

For me, this discussion is kinda useless, because we're missing some vital information here: numbers. We don't know how many reapers exist, and we don't really know how many battleships with sufficient firepower to hurt a reaper exist. The game is very vague on this.

Concerning reapers only being defeatable by unconventional means.

Pro:

• As long as they have their barriers up, reapers are far superior to any battleship, Thanix or not.
• Additionally, having completed 2000+ cycles, it's easy to assume that there are a lot of reapers, seeing how many civilizations they must have harvested.
• While this is still speculation, everyone should see that a victory with a conventional battle is impossible, if there aren't A LOT more dreadnoughts.

Contra:

• If their barriers are down, they're easy prey for any of the alliance ships. This has been shown several times, and the codex even states that 4-5 dreadnought can take down a reaper even with barriers. So that one's a number game again.
• Additionally, the reapers themselves show that they're not that godlike. They rely heavily on guerilla tactics and stealthy warfare (...can't really find the english word for what I mean), meaning indoctrination to weaken the new species throughout the whole cycle, and using the citadel for a surprise attack. This clearly shows that the reapers have to prevent unnecessary casualties. Who knows, maybe in some of the cycles they barely managed to break their enemy, and got close to defeat. They can still stock up their forces after a close victory, when all major resistance is gone.
• This time, the reapers didn't have the element of surprise, which is a BIG factor.
• Arrogance. A very big problem, as the post before this one explains.

Concerning the crucible:
Yeah, the crucible kinda was a weak idea, comes out of nowhere. From a storywriting perspective, BW really should have put a hint towards this in ME2. However, I could accept it, because I realized that this was more or less the only solution because BW made the reapers a little bit too strong. What I disliked was that "everyone added to it, but no one understood what it does". Yeah, I call bs on that one. How the hell should you add something to a device of which you don't know ANYTHING?

Personally, I would have liked the crucible to attack the reapers minds (-> so they lose their barriers), or just  remove their barriers with some.... well, space magic I guess.

So after that, the EMS can decide if you can win or not.

We still don't know if we have an ending yet...And based on what TIM throught....It is something that would attack the reapers minds.

[Vigil_N7]

I'm glad the reapers can't be defeated by conventional means. These are galaxy destroying machines of awesome destruction that are practically immortal.

I know people want a happy ending but come on... their mystique would be left in even greater tatters than what starchild did if they were defeated by the united fleets of the galaxy. I can't think of anything more cliche and anti-climatic.

[Fenrisfil]

Well it's certainly speculation. Most in game characters seem to agree with the OP. However I do think that this cycle is unique and that seems backed up by things in game (like even that hateful little brat starkid saying as much), that means however many past civilizations there have been is irrelevant.

If the numbers of cycles suggest that there have been better circumstances then the same logic suggests they would have successfully deployed the crucible and we'd not even have this issue in our cycle (indeed it wouldn't even be a cycle). Remember also that each cycle has been engineered to be incredibly similar and develop along the same lines so to be predictable when the Reapers wipe them out. So there is really nothing to suggest our cycle isn't unique (or at least the combination of ours and the Prothean cycle lead to a unique situation).

Now that doesn't mean they'd still be able to do it. But it certainly puts the odds potentially more in their favor then any previous cycle.

Of course if they continue to attack with their general clusterf**k tactic they seem to use at the end of ME3, I don't see how they could win with conventional means.

[ZLurps]

I think guerilla tactics aspect comes from few things:

They are each a nation, they don't desire ending of their existence. They have all the time in the world to process system by system, planet by planet. When they do that, they can always have maximum force applied in target, making casualties less likely.

If they used tactics like orbital bombing via mass accelerator fire, they risk eradicating all life from planets. That is not their goal.

Reapers only know method to reproductive is harvesting. Some harvested species are "ascended" in dreadnought shell, others are re-purposed to Collectors, Oculis, perhaps destroyers etc. Using massive fire power would be counter productive as it wouldn't leave intact bodies and / or live subjects to harvest. Using husks and other creatures and indoctrination is much more convenient for Reapers.

/ Hybernite.

[ZLurps]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

I'm glad the reapers can't be defeated by conventional means. These are galaxy destroying machines of awesome destruction that are practically immortal.

I know people want a happy ending but come on... their mystique would be left in even greater tatters than what starchild did if they were defeated by the united fleets of the galaxy. I can't think of anything more cliche and anti-climatic.

Agree 100%.

[TheRealMithril]

@Vigil_N7:

They aren't practically immortal. Not even close. Sovereign and Harbinger are the reaper versions of Bismarck (read about that ship if you don't know about it. You'll be impressed) but as with Bismarck, a concentrated force can bring even that monster down. You can't fight Reapers head on. You need to pick the battles as I mentioned in my previous post. But they are absolutely not invincible.

Modifié par TheRealMithril, 02 avril 2012 - 10:31 .

[luzburg]

Liber320 wrote...

Reapers depended heavily on the element of surpirse and either an non-unified or extremely centralized galaxy.

In this cycle, we:

- Were warned and found out about them before the attack

- Stopped them from using the Citadel and shutting down the Mass Relays

- Managed to destroy one of them and find another derelict one, using their technology to create shielding and weapons almost if not equal to theirs

- Had the entire galaxy (more or less) working together to stop them


So while it may be a long shot and would most definately result in an unfathomable amount of casualties, it could definately be done.

thats my toughts exactly!

[Keldaurz]

luzburg wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

Reapers depended heavily on the element of surpirse and either an non-unified or extremely centralized galaxy.

In this cycle, we:

- Were warned and found out about them before the attack

- Stopped them from using the Citadel and shutting down the Mass Relays

- Managed to destroy one of them and find another derelict one, using their technology to create shielding and weapons almost if not equal to theirs

- Had the entire galaxy (more or less) working together to stop them


So while it may be a long shot and would most definately result in an unfathomable amount of casualties, it could definately be done.

thats my toughts exactly!

And still, you know it's not enough because you will lose on the long shot

[Orthodox Infidel]

Many disappointed fans wrote...

Thanix cannons

I find it funny that people complain that the Crucible is a giant plot device yet their counter argument is thousands of smaller plot devices.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

I'm glad the reapers can't be defeated by conventional means. These are galaxy destroying machines of awesome destruction that are practically immortal.

I know people want a happy ending but come on... their mystique would be left in even greater tatters than what starchild did if they were defeated by the united fleets of the galaxy. I can't think of anything more cliche and anti-climatic.

I don't think everyone just wants a happy ending, not that anything would be wrong with one. Cliche? Perhaps. But the Mass Effect story never had a problem with cliches before now. They heavily referenced other super-cliche sci-fi flicks like Star Trek and Starship Troopers. I'll take cliche over contrived and forced with false depth any day.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Many disappointed fans wrote...

Thanix cannons

I find it funny that people complain that the Crucible is a giant plot device yet their counter argument is thousands of smaller plot devices.

It's just because people don't understand that any plot device can be used poorly or used well. There's a time and place for everything - even Deus Ex Machina.

[SiberETP]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Many disappointed fans wrote...

Thanix cannons

I find it funny that people complain that the Crucible is a giant plot device yet their counter argument is thousands of smaller plot devices.

One is magic doohickey that makes plot happen, designed by many different species that evidently didn't all know what it was ultimately inteded to do, comperable in size to the largest structure we know of in the setting and built over a couple of weeks.

The other is a weapon reverse engineered from recovered advanced technology with years of in-universe time for deployment and clearly stated and defined decisive advantages over existing weapons.

Everything involved in the story is a plot device. Some of them make sense, others don't.

[Vigil_N7]

TheRealMithril wrote...

@Vigil_N7:

They aren't practically immortal. Not even close. Sovereign and Harbinger are the reaper versions of Bismarck (read about that ship if you don't know about it. You'll be impressed) but as with Bismarck, a concentrated force can bring even that monster down. You can't fight Reapers head on. You need to pick the battles as I mentioned in my previous post. But they are absolutely not invincible.

Hyperbole on my part - obviously they are not immortal as shown by the events of ME1 and the destruction of several reapers in ME3. 

Still, these are beings that have been around for millions and millions of years. It'd be incredibly uncharacteristic of them to be beaten in a space battle by the united forces of the galaxy.

[Sangheili_1337]

Reapers will win 100% of the time in a conventional war. I have yet to see a convincing argument that explains how the organic races is going to overcome the overwhelming advantages that the Reapers possess. The Reapers have more ships, more firepower, twice the FTL speed, no need to refuel their ships, grow food, and perform maintenance.

[Iwillbeback]

The Yahg aren't the type of race to fight the Reapers.
That Yahg only became smart for obvious reasons stated in the game.
Reaper Corruption which would of happened would've rendered them useless due to their society and culture.

[Sepharih]

ZLurps wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

 I do not care how advanced the reapers are, or what the tecnical readouts of the galactic alliance ships are.  I do not care what lore can be cited to explain how it's impossible for us to defeat them conventionally...because new lore can be established and/or old lore hand waved away at any moment the writer wants to.
All I care about is what the story calls for.

..snip...

This approach resulted the endings which make no damn sense. We get to know form ME artbook and FinalHours that final confrontation with TIM was supposed to happen in Cerberus base. Hudson and Walters decided to change it to happen in Citadel because it felt more dramatic. Same goes for exploding citadel over London, story demanded it, so let's do it. Only that those pieces fall to Earth...

The reason the ending sucks is because of the Catalyst and everything around him.  TIM being in the citadel and the citadel being at earth above london are minor plot contrivances for the sake of drama.  On their own, they are minor nitpicks at best.

Falling pieces causing helluva destruction on Earth, minor nitpick?

The destruction of the Citadel and any/all damage it causes has nothing to do with having it as part of the dramatic backdrop on earth...it has to do with the stupidity of the catalyst forcing it and the relay's destruction.

ZLurps wrote... 
Not mentioning the whole moving Citadel that causes following issue:
If Reapers were went to Citadel first and shut down the relays, and in general used the strategy they have used to this cycle, they were won. Or to put it other way around, Reapers only lost because of bad writing.

No wonder we get experiments like RGB ending, if almost, almost all kind of bs is acceptable.

A plothole like the sudden inability of the reaper's to shut down the relay network is only a plothole because an explination is not given or established (or maybe not even thought up), because it's more important to see that fleet in all it's glory jump into the sol system in full force.
The RGB ending is a result of completely ignoring the entire themes of the series.

You can argue that both are a result of bad/poor writing, but one is a nitpicky plothole that can be handwaved for drama's sake and could be solved with five minutes of dialogue, and the other is a complete betrayal of the series.

[TheRealMithril]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

@Vigil_N7:

They aren't practically immortal. Not even close. Sovereign and Harbinger are the reaper versions of Bismarck (read about that ship if you don't know about it. You'll be impressed) but as with Bismarck, a concentrated force can bring even that monster down. You can't fight Reapers head on. You need to pick the battles as I mentioned in my previous post. But they are absolutely not invincible.

Hyperbole on my part - obviously they are not immortal as shown by the events of ME1 and the destruction of several reapers in ME3. 

Still, these are beings that have been around for millions and millions of years. It'd be incredibly uncharacteristic of them to be beaten in a space battle by the united forces of the galaxy.

Of course, guerilla tactics is the only thing that can work against an enemy like that. But regardless, I hope that they are only chased away in a new ending. I would hate for them to be gone. They are a critical part of the mass effect universe, and I hope that they are beaten down but still around to cause more problems. To me, they are as crucial as the sith in star wars.