233 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Bhatair wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The reason why waht was originally going to bein the game was cut was an issue of time. If they wanted to put in the endung they wanted, they would of delayed the game again. Being that it was delayed before and delay games lose money for the company, I would imation EA pushed BW to put the ending in later to meet the dead line of realse.

We shouldn't be praising Bioware for releasing an unfinished game, no matter how cool the plot twist is.

Also long as the game gets a proper ending...I don't care how I get it. Alot of people feel the same way.

[AlexMBrennan]

I maintain that making IT canon would be an insult to anyone's intelligence. I certainly won't get it.

[dreman9999]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I maintain that making IT canon would be an insult to anyone's intelligence. I certainly won't get it.

Anyone who says the IT is baseless and  hasno fact's supporting is say these following are not facts.

fact 1. People are indoctrinated by being near reaper tech.
fact 2. People that at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.
fact 3.Shepard is near alot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.
fact 4. Sheperd is hit by an indoctrination field int the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk
fact 5.Indoctrination does not just go away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis

'If Rana survived Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."

Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

Fact 7.You hear whispers in your dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related ............Because this is whatwe are using in our argument. To say theat the IT is baseless is to say these are not fact. To say that is to say they did not happen in the game.

[Leafs43]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I maintain that making IT canon would be an insult to anyone's intelligence. I certainly won't get it.

How does it insult anyones intelligence?

Is it hard to believe Shepherd could be knocked unconcious?

[Bhatair]

dreman9999 wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The reason why waht was originally going to bein the game was cut was an issue of time. If they wanted to put in the endung they wanted, they would of delayed the game again. Being that it was delayed before and delay games lose money for the company, I would imation EA pushed BW to put the ending in later to meet the dead line of realse.

We shouldn't be praising Bioware for releasing an unfinished game, no matter how cool the plot twist is.

Also long as the game gets a proper ending...I don't care how I get it. Alot of people feel the same way.

Ok then, just don't be surprised when the market sees that people are willing to pay for game endings. We're already going down that road, there are some games out there blatantly holding back the ending to sell to you later. I don't know about you but I don't like that one bit.

People complain all the time about developers witholding content to sell as DLC, (from ashes anyone? After playing the game it's pretty clear Javik is fully integrated into the plot. Compared to say, Zaeed from ME2 who had some token dialouge Javik is just as much a full character as Vega.) Or Cutting features from release only to add them in later on for a price tag, but if you keep buying that stuff then they will keep putting it out. It's really kind of sad to think Bioware would stoop so low and take advantage of their fans not just once by witholding a lore important character, but twice by witholding the entire ending.

[the slynx]

I really don't think IT is a desirable ending, regardless of whether it's true or not. It has its own set of issues. I made a thread about this earlier, but I'm too lazy to link to it or to summarise it here. I think some people find it sufficiently stronger than the face value endings that they're willing to overlook any other problems IT as an ending would have.

Modifié par torudoom, 03 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[dreman9999]

torudoom wrote...

I really don't think IT is a desirable ending, regardless of whether it's true or not. It has its own set of issues. I made a thread about this earlier, but I'm too lazy to link to it or to summarise it here. I think some people find it sufficiently stronger than the face value endings that they're willing to overlook any other problems IT as an ending would have.

Maybeyou don't want to link the thread or summarise it because people already found every flaut in your point...Happens in every Anti-indoctrination topic...It's proven wrong.

[dreman9999]

bump

[the slynx]

dreman9999 wrote...
Maybeyou don't want to link the thread or summarise it because people already found every flaut in your point...Happens in every Anti-indoctrination topic...It's proven wrong.

It's here. Feel free to find faults in it.

[dreman9999]

torudoom wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Maybeyou don't want to link the thread or summarise it because people already found every flaut in your point...Happens in every Anti-indoctrination topic...It's proven wrong.

It's here. Feel free to find faults in it.

Here the problem with how your point...You're not seeing all
3 games as one whole. You have to take in the fact that the info in all 3 games
is part of one story. What is stated in the first 2 that applies to the main
plot will take in heart in the 3rd game.
You have to take
note the first game was all about the intro to the universe, the reapers, their
thinking level and there greatest power, Indoctrination....That was what was interesting
about ME1. Indoctrination is a major key to the plot. 

ME2 mostly showed
how far reapers can go with manipulating the flesh. Before we just had indoctrinated
agents and husk that rushed you. In ME2, they show how far reapers can take it
from combining races, turn races to new horrible thing. It was also about adding
meet to the universe.

ME3 was everything
shown in ME1 and 2. Also, the fact that see the true war with the reapers and
how dark the war can get.



The main element in
ME that you have to consider is for shadowing. Indoctrination is shown as a
thing that the player and the universe of the story have to over come to beat
the reapers. Indoctrination is illustrated as the key of our undoing. It clear
that the main character has to face it sooner or later being that it is the
reapers strongest weapon.



The story of ME is similar
to stories like inception, total recall, and blade runner. An issue of the
world that story takes place is told to the viewer and all the rules about it,
all the signs and detail is taught to the viewer. Once the last bit of the
ending is show, there signs that point to the fact that something is wrong.

Example: In
Inception, it's stated that in dreams people jump from place to place never
knowing how they got there and when they got there...They are just there. This
is show when the main character jumps from the plane, to the airport he was
going to land on to finally his home suddenly. This is also an element of
progression in movies...We don't know if what being used in the last scene is
an element of progressing the film or an element us to express the scene is in
a dream. When the main character test if it's a dream or not....We never see if
the top falls or keeps spinning.



To truly understand
why people believe Shep is indoctrinated, there fact to consider that the plot
makes very clear in the story...

fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reaper tech.

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact
5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis



'If Rana survived
Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on
indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and
then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices"
in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."



Fact 6. The reapers
can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s



Fact 7.You hear
whispers in your
dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related
....... 



....

When the ending
starts...The point when you’re cut down by harbinger things get very weird. Harbinger,
as a reaper that can sense organics and came to stop Shepard, suddenly leaves.
Shepard gets a gun with unlimited ammo. Anderson some
how gets in front of Shepard. TIM comes out of no where and has impossible
power and uses indoctrination in a way that it can not be used...If Shep was
not indoctrinated before, TIM would not be able to control him the way he does
or Anderson. And the fact that the only time we see indoctrination that can
controls the movement of people was with Saren and Benezia who where unable to
brake free form indoctrination. Yet, once TIM is dead, Shepard and Anderson are
free to move....If TIM was truly indoctrinated and had indoctrinated Anderson and
Shepard...The reapers would be controlling them at this point. Then there's the
bleed from Shepard’s left side when he was shot in the right shoulder by Marauder
Shields. Then everything with the star child and the choice he wants you to
pick is what Saren wanted in ME1. And then jokers last scene which is
impossible and makes no sense. The final hint, being that dreams are impossible
and makes no sense. And if you pick the destroy choice, you see Shep waking up.
Cleary something is wrong with the last scene.



To say that the IT
theory makes no sense as a story element is to ignore everything in ME1. Ignore
everything you learn about indoctrination, the foreshadowing of facing it in
the last 2 games. And the fact that everything is clearly so wrong about the
ending and the IT would easily explain it.

It like the ending
of total recall and blade runner where the ending is left to the viewer’s
assumption. What the problem with ME3's ending is too impossible to make any
sense unless that was the point....To tell the player something is wrong.

The last not to
consider is that fact that bw has a history of messing with the player..





bg1...You find out you're the
son of Baal and you're the bad guys brother.

BG2....They turn the player
into a monster which they can't control and attacks the players group .It also
has the players love interest turned into a vampire and killed.

Kotor...reven twist.

Jade empire...Your master is
the bad guy and kills you.

ME1...The citadel is a trap.

DA:O....Stopping the dark spawn
mean you have to die...or maybe make a deal with the devil.

ME2...REAPERS ARE MADE OF
PEOPLE..

da2....You trigger the event
that causes the end.



ME3's twist maybe that your in
the process of being indoctrinated. 



As a story element,
based on how much BW worked on it....It fits.

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 avril 2012 - 04:04 .

[Heimdall]

In answer to the OP, I'd never purchase another Bioware product on principle for releasing an incomplete game.

[Senario]

Tables, they will be flipped. There are problems with Indoctrination. Far more than I'd like there to be when it comes to a resolution ending. I'd rather they re write the story starting from the run to the beam. I lost all epic feeling when I started limping =/. Sure other parts of the game could use a re-write(Thessia was boring). But just go back to the drawing board from the rush to the conduit scene.

The nostalgia of ME1 was amazing but...that only got your hopes up higher for an ending that was as good as the first game's.

Edit: I have a feeling I'll need reasons why Indoctrination is bad other than the video in my signature. To put it shortly 1) Thessia VI responds to Shepard and also has Indoctrination scanner thing, only notices Kai Leng. I don't buy the fact that it cannot recognize partial indoctrinations. Which it(indoctrination) would have been, had Shepard been slowly indoctrinated.
2)  If Shep had been rapidly indoctrinated, he would be a mindless husk after a few days because of the after affects of indoctrination. There is a reason slow patient indoctrination is what the reapers do. The reason reapers try to id Shepard doesn't make sense when they could have killed Shepard where he was on the ground, and not even given him the destroy option in his "dreams".

Oh and games are supposed to come with a beginning, middle, and end when you buy them. Not a Beginning, middle, and ending you have to buy with dlc.

Modifié par Senario, 03 avril 2012 - 04:08 .

[Tiax Rules All]

a lot of people wont accept IT because they think it would mean "its all a dream" its simple as that. They won't do any research at all to find out what IT actually is. Or how it would be much more then "it was all a dream" It would NOT be a cop-out or lame plot device but a very carefully planned and thought out masterpiece of writing in a video game. I'm sorry they will be dissapointed. I will be quite satisfied.

[Heimdall]

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

[Heimdall]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

a lot of people wont accept IT because they think it would mean "its all a dream" its simple as that. They won't do any research at all to find out what IT actually is. Or how it would be much more then "it was all a dream" It would NOT be a cop-out or lame plot device but a very carefully planned and thought out masterpiece of writing in a video game. I'm sorry they will be dissapointed. I will be quite satisfied.

So you're okay with a game lacking an ending?

[Tiax Rules All]

Lord Aesir wrote...

In answer to the OP, I'd never purchase another Bioware product on principle for releasing an incomplete game.

not saying I agree with it but, look around. This is the future with EA in charge. the little companies will follow suit too. games are never going back to what they were. we have to get used to the new DLC trend and digital download medium.

[Reciever80]

I already have the 1600 Bioware points from before the game came out, so I'm forced to buy something now. If you have to pay for the ending, I'll go nuts, but I have to buy something with these points. The fact they sell us an incomplete game, and then force us to pay more for the complete ending would drive me insane.

[dreman9999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[Heimdall]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

[Tiax Rules All]

I wish I could find my posts from the old DA1 days. I predicted paying for endings and episodic content back then. They all called me crazy and told me I was over-reacting about Shale. I saw this. Its will get MUCH worse before it ever gets better.

[Agiyosi]

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Modifié par Agiyosi, 03 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

the Vi talkes about sleeper agents sabotaging the prothean crucible build, they failed to properly detect IT then so they can fail in properly detecting it in Shepard.    There is no sure fire IT litmus test

[Joccaren]

N7L4D wrote...

I'd be happy, this guy though would just be dissapointed he got fooled

More likely disappointed that Bioware took the easy route and just made an ending that the fans came up with, rather than their own.
I'd be extremely disappointed in Bioware too, but I would start replaying the series as now it has a good ending at least - hopefully.

[Tiax Rules All]

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

[the slynx]

dreman9999 wrote...

torudoom wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Maybeyou don't want to link the thread or summarise it because people already found every flaut in your point...Happens in every Anti-indoctrination topic...It's proven wrong.

It's here. Feel free to find faults in it.

Here the problem with how your point...You're not seeing all
3 games as one whole.

I don't think that's an actual response to what I wrote in the other thread; you've mostly restated bits of IT and brought up the first game - where indoctrination was also not explained other than in fairly general terms. I think my post does treat all the games as a whole story, which is why I argue in that post that IT as a technique doesn't make sense for this sort of epic narrative.