233 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

[Heimdall]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

the Vi talkes about sleeper agents sabotaging the prothean crucible build, they failed to properly detect IT then so they can fail in properly detecting it in Shepard.    There is no sure fire IT litmus test

How can you say that.  Find me the precise quote where Vendetta tells you that it failed to detect the agents or that it was even on the Crucible project rather than being programmed to communicate the Prothean's knowledge to the next cycle?

There is no proof to back up these assertions, only supposition.

[Agiyosi]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

Writing is different than marketing, but they are ultimately all tied-up in the same bag. Maybe I am an idealist or just naive. Perhaps the ending to ME3 is just like dessert--not promised and it costs extra if you really want it.

[dakka dakka]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

Easy work around. Prothean VI's aren't perfect when detecting Indoctrinated people. Javik states there were a lot of flaws with the scanning protocol and it just makes sense that it wasn't perfect otherwise how would people undergoing Indoctrination be able to make it into vulnerable areas?

Basically the VI program senses whether a person who is either clean of Indoctrination, or whether the person has succumbed to the affects...... It can't detect people undergoing subtle Indoctrination.

This explanation has been stated just about everywhere and had you bothered to do your research you would have found the answer.

GG thanks for playing........next.

[Senario]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

That is an assertion you cannot make and is nothing more than wild speculation. Asserting that the VI was on the old crucible project and conveniently missed these agents when it detected Kai Leng is just bad reasoning. For one, the VI was on Thessia as part of a similar time capsule/cultivational purpose as Liara's time capsule. The Thessia Government withheld this relic because it gave them the technological edge.

[Tov01]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

This is boyond being nice or not. Purposfully not including the ending in the game only to charge for it later is an unheard off extreme in corprate greed. It is not something we should tolerate.

[Tiax Rules All]

dreman9999 wrote...

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

funny how they can accuse us of being selective of what we decide is evidence but THIS is clearly stated in game and they chose not to remember it said.

Protheans did not have a foolproof method of Indoctrination detection. They were betrayed by their own indoctrinated sleeper agents many times. Javik says this, VI says this.

[Sajuro]

Leafs43 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

Sorry, I just think the time has come and gone for them to come out and say IT was the plan all along. It's been a month, there is a huge fan outcry over the ending in the game and a 1000+ page thread speculating on indoctrination. Besides there is no logical reason to remove the ending after the twist unless they wanted to sell it to us later, which I would find despicable.

Would IT have been awesome? Yes, I like it much better than what we actually got. It's up there with the whole "Would you kindly?" twist from Bioshock in terms of cleverness. I'm too cynical to actually believe Bioware intended it though and if they did, well screw them I'm not paying extra for what should have been part of the game from the get go.

Extra missions? Extra weapons? Sure, that's acceptable as DLC. The ending to a trilogy? No, that is just blatant exploitation.

If it is true, they would not say anything...The idea was to trick the player...To have them experiance indoctrination. If they say anything about the ending, people would not fall for the trick. It's a psycological test.

Well that's just stupid. You do not play with your fans like that and expect them to keep buying your stuff.

Ha...have you played a bw game?

BW has a history of Messing with the player in thier stories.
bg1...You find out you're the son of Baal and you're the bad guys brother.
BG2....They turn the player into a monste, which the player can't control and attacks the players group and have the players love intrest turned into a vmpire and killed.
Kotor...reven twist.
Jade empire...Your master is the bad guy and kills you.
ME1...The citdel is a trap.
DA:O....Stopping the dark spawn  mean you have to die...or maybe make a deal with the devil.
ME2...REAPERS ARE MADE OF PEOPLE..
da2....You trigger the event that cause the end.

ME3's twist maybe that your in the procces of being indoctrinated. 
They been tricking their fans for years.

Indeed.

ME3 doesn't have the plot twist Bioware usually includes.

So it makes sense for them to make probably their biggest trilogy go out with the biggest plot twist.

Even before the Retake movement grew, they announced they wanted everyone to finish the game before they talked about it.  So there is going to be a plot twist with new DLC, IT is just the most obvious one.

If it is the ending, I am proud to say: Troll on Bioware, troll on.

[Heimdall]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This is all assuming it was even on the old crucible project.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 03 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Tov01 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

This is boyond being nice or not. Purposfully not including the ending in the game only to charge for it later is an unheard off extreme in corprate greed. It is not something we should tolerate.

you dont have to tolerate it, dont buy it. but to play devils advocate here. Its bad because you think its bad. Your boycott should stop at your money. not other peoples. They can spend it where they want.

[dakka dakka]

Tov01 wrote...


This is boyond being nice or not. Purposfully not including the ending in the game only to charge for it later is an unheard off extreme in corprate greed. It is not something we should tolerate.

Even though I support the IT theory I to believe that endings to games shouldn't be for a fee. Sadly Capcom is already doing that with their games.

Hopefully, if IT turns out to be true, the "truth" DLC will be freely given out to players. That is the only way to really salvage this situation.

[dreman9999]

torudoom wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

torudoom wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Maybeyou don't want to link the thread or summarise it because people already found every flaut in your point...Happens in every Anti-indoctrination topic...It's proven wrong.

It's here. Feel free to find faults in it.

Here the problem with how your point...You're not seeing all
3 games as one whole.

I don't think that's an actual response to what I wrote in the other thread; you've mostly restated bits of IT and brought up the first game - where indoctrination was also not explained other than in fairly general terms. I think my post does treat all the games as a whole story, which is why I argue in that post that IT as a technique doesn't make sense for this sort of epic narrative.

But your missing the fact that it was cleary explined...http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.And then it was explianed even more..
http://masseffect.wi...eapers'_Secrets 
The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into Reaper territory. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in humans, a known factor in Reaper indoctrination. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late. 


Also need to read more of what i wrote....It explaines more about what I'm talking about.

[Tiax Rules All]

Lord Aesir wrote...
You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

it kinda is. you have to see how much further you are stretching things then we are...

They aren't going to come out and tell you point blank that they are unreliable. They don't KNOW they are unreliable. Its what is shown and said in game that is evident that they are though.

I can't get on board with your line of thinking.

[Sajuro]

Tov01 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

This is boyond being nice or not. Purposfully not including the ending in the game only to charge for it later is an unheard off extreme in corprate greed. It is not something we should tolerate.

Yet we will, because Mass Effect is a frakkin' good franchise.

[dakka dakka]

Lord Aesir wrote...

*snip*

Javik himself said the Prothean VI's weren't reliable. What other proof do you need?

[Heimdall]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

it kinda is. you have to see how much further you are stretching things then we are...

They aren't going to come out and tell you point blank that they are unreliable. They don't KNOW they are unreliable. Its what is shown and said in game that is evident that they are though.

I can't get on board with your line of thinking.

Nothing in game shows us that.  We don't even know Vendetta was on the old crucible project.  Find me that piece of evidence, and I'll believe you.

[Tov01]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

This is boyond being nice or not. Purposfully not including the ending in the game only to charge for it later is an unheard off extreme in corprate greed. It is not something we should tolerate.

you dont have to tolerate it, dont buy it. but to play devils advocate here. Its bad because you think its bad. Your boycott should stop at your money. not other peoples. They can spend it where they want.

Who says I was bocotting it. Perhaps I should clarify: If Bioware intended IT, but didn't include the ending (either on their own of by pressure from EA), then they are guilty of unprecedented corprate greed. However, as I don;t belive that IT has any credance at all, I don't belive Bioware IS actully guilty of this.

[Heimdall]

dakka dakka wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

*snip*

Javik himself said the Prothean VI's weren't reliable. What other proof do you need?

When?  Show me the quote, or better yet a youtube video.  I've never heard it.

[Sajuro]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This is all assuming it was even on the old crucible project.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

If they were able to bypass prothean security that was scanning for indoctrination wether they were staying far away or not then the VIs failed in their job to detect indoctrination.

[Tiax Rules All]

dakka dakka wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

*snip*

Javik himself said the Prothean VI's weren't reliable. What other proof do you need?

They need to be able to call it things like "unfalsifiable" to feel better.

Though I find "unfalsifiable" as a testament to its creativity

When I described the "thessia VI issue" to my friends they imediately recognised those key dialogs. He should probalby youtube then or play again.

Im on playthrough 3, I want to make sure I have my details straight

[dreman9999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

the Vi talkes about sleeper agents sabotaging the prothean crucible build, they failed to properly detect IT then so they can fail in properly detecting it in Shepard.    There is no sure fire IT litmus test

How can you say that.  Find me the precise quote where Vendetta tells you that it failed to detect the agents or that it was even on the Crucible project rather than being programmed to communicate the Prothean's knowledge to the next cycle?

There is no proof to back up these assertions, only supposition.

Javik says this.... http://www.youtube.c...K1id-kKw#t=763s
If you got a VI that can sense indctrinated sleeper agents  in your ranks and you later find out that you still were betrade by indoctrinated agents that were in your ranks...It's clear that the VI is not suited to detact indoctrinated Agents.

[Keldaurz]

Sajuro wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Agiyosi wrote...

There are two components to this, I think.

One is the fact that they released an incomplete game. Arguing that the Starchild sequence was truly an ending to only be later clarified later by DLC seems disingenuous. I think IT is a superbly bad-*** twist, but one that should've been fully contextualized and completed during the initial release/playthrough. Segmenting the "true" ending of the game in an episodic, additive nature just rings of "ruthless calculus" when it comes to their business model.

The second component is whether or not they charge for it. If it is free, there is an argument about releasing an incomplete experience, but there is conversely an argument about providing us with a monumental cliffhanger and later fulfilling the expectations with gusto and flourish. If they charge for it, well, ready the flamethrowers.

Who says game companies have to ever be nice? they just have to make good games.

writing is also different from marketing.

This is boyond being nice or not. Purposfully not including the ending in the game only to charge for it later is an unheard off extreme in corprate greed. It is not something we should tolerate.

Yet we will, because Mass Effect is a frakkin' good franchise.

Said jackky after willingly undressing his pants.

[unoriginalname1133]

I'd be glad for ANYTHING that can give us a chance to actually save the damn universe this time around

[Tiax Rules All]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dakka dakka wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

*snip*

Javik himself said the Prothean VI's weren't reliable. What other proof do you need?

When?  Show me the quote, or better yet a youtube video.  I've never heard it.

I promise you it is. I will work on it JUST FOR YOU, cause you asked sooo nicely. I know you must be busy trying to debunk theories without having all the evidence first so, ill be back later..

[govs6360]

I would be pissed beacuse while giving us a battale for the soul and mind of Shepard they did not give us an ending. Also the whole point of buliding the crubile means nothing for the only way to beat the reapers with out the "space magic" is by conventional means and was stated to be impossable sveral times.